THEORY: Danzo used KA on Hiruzen?

[Chie]

Nice response, maybe I just had too much faith in old Hiruzen to believe that he would do such a thing though i guess this kind of failure in a way emphasizes how he inherited the same shortcomings (lack in judgement?) as the previous Kages. I guess All I can say is Kakashi probably should have stayed the 6th Hokage because lets face it, Naruto isn't exactly the sharpest tool in the shed..

I wouldn't say he's a particularly bad person or that it is a reason to lose faith necessarily.

You basically hit nail on the head with the bold. It had got to the point he no longer had influence. He just should have not let Danzo take control of the dark side of the village over the years and most things would not have occurred or needed to escalate like they did. All the Hokages had their flaws in some way (well, all the characters in the story do), some more than others.

Just a part of his characterization. None of the characters were 100% saintly, which is expected in a shinobi manga.

 

[SenseiSama]

Well, everyone who replied with either "Hiruzen was against it" and "He gave the order" are ironically both partially right lol.

Hiruzen gave the order for Danzo to be in charge of Itachi's missions and the darker side of Konoha. So, in a way Danzo's orders are equivalent to Hiruzen's orders as the latter knew what type of person Danzo was and as a result let him handle the darker sides of the village- which Hiruzen was uncomfortable with dealing with himself.

In the manga, 13 yr old Itachi tells Hiruzen that the Uchiha are doing a coup. The response is pretty lackluster. He does say they could talk it out, but he never goes to talk to them. He is reluctant to go talk to the Uchiha if Koharu/Danzo/Homura disagree which they do until the end. Itachi kills the Uchiha Police Force with Obito killing the rest of the clan the night before the coup. Negotiation would never take place and Hiruzen was going to let things take their course.

However, with this being said- Itachi did tell the clan about negotiation in the novels multiple times. They thought it was a stupid idea as they found no way to trust the leadership and believed that even if a compromise was reached then they would be double-crossed later. The Uchiha had a poor view of Hiruzen, so even if the Hokage actually talked to them he would honestly get nowhere.

Hiruzen is thankful for the massacre as it prevented greater tragedy. I don't believe he was particularly sad about it- he more so regretted that it had to get to that point though. He blamed himself for giving Danzo too much leniency with the village is all. If he had been more strict w/ his colleagues years earlier, then the Uchiha would have trusted him and it would not have been needed. If he were under KA Ala Danzo, he'd have no regrets at all. That and the narrative would have made it clear by now since Kishimoto/SP love blaming all the bad things that happen in the village on Danzo.

Hashirama is a non-factor as he stated that even if his own child were to harm the village, he would have no hesitation in cutting them down. However, the Uchiha would never be a problem for Hashirama as a) He made sure things were fair when he had his reign and b) He's so strong that the clan would never take the chance at pulling something like that.

I think Hiruzen should've made Itachi head of Root to gain the Uchiha's full trust, he carried the will of fire but also cared deeply for his family who happened to be the head of the clan. In the end it would've been a win-win situation.

 

[Claymantan]

It had got to the point he no longer had influence. He just should have not let Danzo take control of the dark side of the village over the years and most things would not have occurred or needed to escalate like they did. All the Hokages had their flaws in some way (well, all the characters in the story do), some more than others.

Just a part of his characterization. None of the characters were 100% saintly, which is expected in a shinobi manga.

I would go so far as to say that Hiruzen was bordering on incompetent. I mean look at this:

Spoiler

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Even when he knows what's going on, he gives in to Danzo. And I don't think it was a substantive thing where like Danzo and the advisor literally overruled Hiruzen with political power (because that seems unusual for how the Kage system has been portrayed, but if it did go down like that, sweet mercy Hokages are hamstrung).

But I mean it makes sense because young Hiruzen is portrayed as kind of a hothead. So eh.

 

[Chie]

Hiruzen doesn't want massacre
Danzo doesn't give a flying f**k so long as the village is all g
Danzo tries to manipulate Itachi saying err "Hiruzen will just kill ya's anyway"

I don't think Itachi would succumb to a cheap trick like that.

It's not really a cheap trick as the ideology is if anyone hurts the village- you kill them. Danzo was stating a fact.

What Danzo was stating was what would happen when the coup would take effect. They'd kill anyone with an Uchiha symbol and people would fight back. No one would sit there and let things burn. Hiruzen would not sit there as clan members would come at him with killing intent.

I think Hiruzen should've made Itachi head of Root to gain the Uchiha's full trust, he carried the will of fire but also cared deeply for his family who happened to be the head of the clan. In the end it would've been a win-win situation.

It depends at what point.

By the time Itachi was 10, the clan had already sent Shisui as a spy on him. The clan didn't trust Itachi. Which is heavily ironic, given Itachi doesn't betray them until he's 13 (while the one they trust, Shisui, had been giving intel to Hiruzen for years)- at a point where he does not see the clan budging with their plans he decides to tell Hiruzen to see if he will take immediate action as Hokage regarding it. Hiruzen doesn't, he wants his comrade's approval first. lol.

Shisui also committed suicide when Itachi was 11. The Uchiha thought Itachi was a murderer when he really wasn't for several years before the massacre.

I don't think Hiruzen or the others would be willing to let anyone besides Itachi become leader of Root (he was already leader of Anbu anyway by Hiruzen's approval... the Uchiha still didn't trust the Hokage). They probably didn't trust Hiruzen despite promoting Itachi to the Anbu because of the inaccurate aforementioned speculations (he's a murderer, a traitor, etc) of the latter.

And it wouldn't be possible to promote Itachi as leader of anything before the Uchiha stopped trusting him... he'd be too little at age 9 or younger xD

 

[KISSame]

Thanks for all the neat replies guys I didn't necessarily think that Danzo had used KA on Hiruzen I more so thought it was ridiculous that the situation got so far out of hand but some of the posts here make it seem more reasonable to me. I'm off to bed now was fun chattin' with ya'll!

 

[Chie]

I would go so far as to say that Hiruzen was bordering on incompetent. I mean look at this:

Spoiler

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Even when he knows what's going on, he gives in to Danzo. And I don't think it was a substantive thing where like Danzo and the advisor literally overruled Hiruzen with political power (because that seems unusual for how the Kage system has been portrayed, but if it did go down like that, sweet mercy Hokages are hamstrung).

But I mean it makes sense because young Hiruzen is portrayed as kind of a hothead. So eh.

Well, he does admit to his passivity when it came down to letting Danzo handle the dark side of Konoha:

Spoiler

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[NarutoX28]

I'm certain he wasn't as Hiruzen agreed to protecting Sasuke which was something Itachi felt Danzo was against.

Edit: I mean, Obito's story as well included the idea that only Hiruzen was against the massacre.

 

[UchiGOD]

Still doesn't change the fact the Hokage's orders > Danzo's, Hiruzen could've prevented the massacre if he gave orders to Itachi not to proceed with Danzo's plan but he didn't which is highly suspicious because he of all people should know a Kage's job is to make tough decisions even if it doesn't please your friends.

I know,but problem is that danzo wouldn't have listened to hiruzen. He said he would do it with members of foundatio,which means sasuke's death would be certain.Besides,those two (other Consolers... Or whatever)were agreed with danzo. So hiruzen could do nothing but to follow them.
Not only this,itachi had some deals with tobi,right??? Tobi would kill everyone and probably attack konoha again,itachi didn't want this. Further more,he wanted to become an akatsuki member to spy on them.
Itachi literally had no choice.