[Theoretical Discussion] Can Rasegan Shuirken stop Amaterasu?

[Jcub]

This about if it is plausible.

This isn't about what move or which user is better

With that said Riley freeman posted a pretty good thread, so I guess in a way this is just a way to keep it going, in a slightly differ direction.

So essentially you have Wind vs Fire. We have seen and we know wind can make fire stronger. We also know fire can be blown out. We also know a fire's direction, not only intensity, can be changed with enough wind (see any forest fire ever)

So the question is can rasengan shuirken (RS) stop amaterasu (A).

(RS) is wind element, lots of chakra, force and rotation, when working together it can mix. But at uneven levels (intent to destroy will result in faster roation) might have other effects.

(A) has many characteristics, one of them is not force. It has no mass so it has no stopping force, or expansionary effects (that I have seen).

So what happens when they collide? one of three things.
1.(RS) continues through the fire and hits or misses the (A) user as it would if no fire was there
2.(RS) causes (A) to wildly expand effecting either (RS) and (A) user. No where its stated the (A) user is immune,
we have to assume they are not, we have seen other jutsu effect the user.
3.(RS) with enough rotation (massively unequal amounts of chakra) extinguishes (A) ( it is stated it cannot be
extinguished through normal means, a Vacuum is not normal).

Lets expand on #3 more, in this case if Naruto created enough clones, all using (RS) surrounding a section fire from (A). or perhaps thrown all at the same time in creating a Sq []. North to South, West to East, and vise versa. Same effect with that much air being rotated in such a area would there be a big enough vacuum to extinguish (A) through lack of air.

The reason I think it would is because of the shape of (RS) its shuirken, a massive spinning fan, I don't recall massive dust clouds being kicked up every time it shows up so I think it would be safe to assume the airflow either goes up, or to the side.

What do you think? Remember this is not about which user is better, or even likely hood of perfect conditions these to happen. Do you think its Possible, and why.

 

[MinatoTheYellowFlash]

No, the complete opposite, Naruto has nothing but one jutsu that's effective against sasuke and that's rasengan which Sasuke's chidori ties or > in rare occasions.
Amaterasu can burn chakra so TBB is useless (or it would split it in half and maybe explode)

 

[slaton02]

I knew this was gonna get turned into a Naruto vs Sasuke thing. RS can't extinguish Ama, 1 or 2 would happen it's simple science with the account of ama not being able to be put out. Look what happened to Juubito, that alone should answer your question.

 

[Mitarashi]

No, but his chakra arms can. He can just take the impact with them and then dispel them lel.

 

[Kαmi]

I don't think 3 because Amaterasu can only be extinguished by the user themselves. It might apply for normal Katon but Amaterasu will burn no matter what, we've seen it make it through water itself so I doubt the idea of airflow and necessity of oxygen is necessary for Amaterasu. I think it would be your 2nd option, Amaterasu would begin to spread like wildfire. Amaterasu still has some Katon like properties so it would spread in the same sense of adding Fuuton to Katon. I think it would work a lot like when Sasuke and Naruto put RS and A together against Obito and cause the black flames to expand big time.

 

[KGB Kakuzu]

In theory Amaterasu should be elementary superior; however, by design it isn't the most practical attack. This is because it directly ignites what it hits. By that, I mean it does not have PIERCING damage. Where a Katon like Madara or Kakuzu's are projectile in the sense of a fragmentation grenade (bounces), Amaterasu is a projectile closer to a sticky bomb: stopping at what it hits and doing nothing more.


Worst case scenario: it strengthens the rasenshuriken as we saw with Sasuke and Naruto's team up.

Best case scenario: It causes the Rasenshuriken to prematurely detonate making it incapable of harming its target (naturally assuming it's stopped before getting close).



Something like Enton, however, is entirely capable of overpowering it due to elemental superiority and the idea of mass if used in a projectile manner instead of a stop and focus on what's hit first.



Edit: The rasenshuriken isn't a vacuum. There are instances against Pain and Kakuzu where it looked like it kicked up dust to me. I'd also say it would be quieter close to it because sound cannot travel in a vacuum.

 

[azumaki naruto]

jinton can stop amaterasu?

 

[Jcub]

I don't think 3 because Amaterasu can only be extinguished by the user themselves..

It cannot be extinguished with water or any other normal methods.

Narutopedia.

It can't be extinguished by things like, a fire extinguisher, smothering with a blanket, water, or stomping on it will not work.

 

[Sonnelion]

I believe that if anything they would combine since the rasen shuriken's base chakra is wind which strengthens fire so it will as previously stated in this comment most likely combine and create a stronger attack. I believe it also combined in the manga to so it would just do the same exact thing despite what the amaterasu users intentions were.

 

[narutocentral]

You bring a good theory.. I say yes

 

[Jcub]

Best case scenario: It causes the Rasenshuriken to prematurely detonate making it incapable of harming its target (naturally assuming it's stopped before getting close).

Edit: The rasenshuriken isn't a vacuum. There are instances against Pain and Kakuzu where it looked like it kicked up dust to me. I'd also say it would be quieter close to it because sound cannot travel in a vacuum.

I'm not tracking why (A) would make (RS) explode or even hinder the path of (RS), Care to explain? Maybe I'm missing something here.

I understand (RS) alone is not a vacuum (side note a vacuum has no noise but what makes the vacuum can, plus thats the anime.) but several at the same time, the air movement it generates has to come from somewhere and go somewhere, thats what I'm pondering. Also is it enough.

 

[Jcub]

I knew this was gonna get turned into a Naruto vs Sasuke thing. RS can't extinguish Ama, 1 or 2 would happen it's simple science with the account of ama not being able to be put out. Look what happened to Juubito, that alone should answer your question.

How do you figure it turned into Naru Vs Sask? You were the second to post. Are you trying to turn it into one? I mentioned naruto only when necessary due to his shadow clone use, not many people use clones so I had to be specific for the sake for brevity

 

[Bieber]

If the jutsus collide, Fūton: Rasenshuriken will become engulfed in amaterasu. Once it is, Sasuke can manipulate the flames via Enton. So no, if anything Fūton: Rasenshuriken aids amaterasu.

 

[CJ Mac]

Perhaps.

When combining techniques, the power levels must be relatively equal or they will cancel each other out, regardless of their elemental nature. This has been discussed many times throughout the series, and is why combining techniques is so difficult.

In combat, it is only said that Fire Nature has an advantage over Wind Nature. While this means it is more difficult to overcome the more advantageous chakra nature, it is not impossible. For instance, both Madara and Kakuzu were able to overcome Water Nature defenses with Fire Nature attacks. Similarly, if Naruto's Rasenshuriken vastly overpowers Sasuke's Amaterasu arrow, then it is theoretically possible for Naruto's attack to overcome Amaterasu in some way.

That being said, Amaterasu was once considered inextinguishable. This would indicate that even if Naruto's attack is able to redirect Amaterasu, since the flames can only be extinguished with the user's control, it would not be able to completely cancel the technique, and Sasuke would just be able to redirect the flames with his Sharingan. However, since the time skip, we have seen numerous instances of the flames being extinguished without the user. For instance, Nagato was able to dispel Itachi's Amaterasu with his Almighty Push. This seems to indicate that Amaterasu isn't as powerful as once thought.

 

[Jcub]

If the jutsus collide, Fūton: Rasenshuriken will become engulfed in amaterasu. Once it is, Sasuke can manipulate the flames via Enton. So no, if anything Fūton: Rasenshuriken aids amaterasu.

I see what you are purposing, but there is still the matter of force and movement from (RS), (A) is notoriously slow once it goes on its own, and the amount of chakra to perform (RS) is immense. Would you say manipulation of (A) would be quick enough to stop it, or benefit? (RS) is rotation of wind chakra.

Personally I'm having a hard time getting past the movement of (RS), it seems to me even if it makes for a bigger (A) its still ARS going in its original direction.

 

[Jcub]

Perhaps.

When combining techniques, the power levels must be relatively equal or they will cancel each other out, regardless of their elemental nature. This has been discussed many times throughout the series, and is why combining techniques is so difficult.

In combat, it is only said that Fire Nature has an advantage over Wind Nature. While this means it is more difficult to overcome the more advantageous chakra nature, it is not impossible. For instance, both Madara and Kakuzu were able to overcome Water Nature defenses with Fire Nature attacks. Similarly, if Naruto's Rasenshuriken vastly overpowers Sasuke's Amaterasu arrow, then it is theoretically possible for Naruto's attack to overcome Amaterasu in some way.

That being said, Amaterasu was once considered inextinguishable. This would indicate that even if Naruto's attack is able to redirect Amaterasu, since the flames can only be extinguished with the user's control, it would not be able to completely cancel the technique, and Sasuke would just be able to redirect the flames with his Sharingan. However, since the time skip, we have seen numerous instances of the flames being extinguished without the user. For instance, Nagato was able to dispel Itachi's Amaterasu with his Almighty Push. This seems to indicate that Amaterasu isn't as powerful as once thought.

Thats what got me to thinking, during part 1 it was the bees knee's. It was considered unavoidable too, but times change, majority of the people who encounter it have found a way around it (kinda lame, as its my favorite Uchiha move).

 

[reject101]

This is what happens, duh, they already met in the manga when they attacked the jubbi, they combined and made each other more powerfull

Spoiler

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[Bieber]

@Jcub:
It was already displayed in the manga, that in a matter of seconds the entire Fūton: Rasenshuriken was engulfed in Enton. Amaterasu would be enough to put an end to Fūton: Rasenshuriken due to that. Amaterasu, or Enton, colliding with Fūton: Rasenshuriken would benefit the user of amaterasu, from that point on, you could say it's their "jutsu". Unless Sasuke changes the direction via Enton, Fūton: Rasenshuriken will still continue to go in it's original direction. Though it will eventually stop, the flames won't make it as far as Fūton: Rasenshuriken either.

 

[Microsword57]

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I Disagree. Amaterasu has shown to have a force behind it depending on how the user implements that jutsu. For instance, the famous Katon and Enton clash in Sasuke and Itachi's battle. The Amaterasu used was pushing back Sasuke's fire ninjutsu and then proceeded to devour it[

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]. IF what you said was true and Amaterasu did not have force behind it then Sasuke's Katon would have simple pushed the Amaterasu flames onto Itachi. In the hypothetical situation where Amaterasu clashes with the RasenShuriken the wind would simple become additional enton flames. Now if I am wrong about Amaterasu having force than in this clash the Amaterasu user could simple extinguish the flames after combining with the RasenShuriken[

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][

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]. Thus, extinguishing the RasenShuriken as well or in Sasuke's case he could manipulate all the additional flames and transform it into a weapon. I mean that literally[

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][

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][

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].

 

[Jcub]

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I Disagree. Amaterasu has shown to have a force behind it depending on how the user implements that jutsu. For instance, the famous Katon and Enton clash in Sasuke and Itachi's battle. The Amaterasu used was pushing back Sasuke's fire ninjutsu and then proceeded to devour it[

You must be registered for see links

]. IF what you said was true and Amaterasu did not have force behind it then Sasuke's Katon would have simple pushed the Amaterasu flames onto Itachi. In the hypothetical situation where Amaterasu clashes with the RasenShuriken the wind would simple become additional enton flames. Now if I am wrong about Amaterasu having force than in this clash the Amaterasu user could simple extinguish the flames after combining with the RasenShuriken[

You must be registered for see links

][

You must be registered for see links

]. Thus, extinguishing the RasenShuriken as well or in Sasuke's case he could manipulate all the additional flames and transform it into a weapon. I mean that literally[

You must be registered for see links

][

You must be registered for see links

][

You must be registered for see links

].

I see what your saying.

I think I should define force better, what you say is true, and the scan is good. In your scan, clearly it is overwhelming the like element. It could be argued that its due to them being of the same element where as (A) is greater, but lets skip that. I did notice another thing in your scan, both users being in close proximity to their combined attack. They are both still standing. That's what I'm implying by force, not projection (which is how I see you using the term). Impact, explosion force ect.

Is there a reason for the underlining thinking is (RS) is instantly absorbed or converted when it comes into contact with (A)? Admittedly I have a hard time grasping the manga part in all this. Let me share a RL example:

I have a wood stove so I'm always messing with fire, stoking it up, re-kindling coals and such. Each time I either fan or blow the fire, its rages as the air pushes it about then increased as the current dies down. See where I'm coming from? My line of thinking may not be right but, I'm pretty sure its completely wrong.

Anyway thanks, great scan Micro.