The title should be Kurama

[Claymantan]

Uchiha shippuden

Legend of Ninja

Bijuuball NV

 

[Yata Mirror]

weak bait.. try again

 

[Nick01]

No the story is about Naruto making Sasuke his pet alongside Kurama.......So Naruto Shippuden is the most logical name. If you disagree then reread the manga.

/Thread.

 

[Nick01]

....the mods probably couldn't take the fanfic spam anymore...XD

It's about time Dubiot and Dantool, members of FodderBase, got what they deserved.

 

[Darth AniCetuS]

It's about time Dubiot and Dantool, members of FodderBase, got what they deserved.

Sure they did....but I am sad SB has become an orphan.

 

[Nick01]

Sure they did....but I am sad SB has become an orphan.

lol I suppose.
If they weren't banned, there'd be a few fanfic threads by now of how Sasuke does this or does that. XD

 

[Darth AniCetuS]

lol I suppose.
If they weren't banned, there'd be a few fanfic threads by now of how Sasuke does this or does that. XD

Hmmm.....guess its better they stay banned then..

 

[shelke]

I would have preferred this manga to be Seinen and be centered on the Uchiha and the time and space to be the war era. Just shift all Uchiha characters to that time and you have a wonderful manga on politics, war era, fear mongering, in and out-group dynamics, power struggles and the natural demons the Uchiha dealt with because of their powerful chakra and Sharingan. Heck, throw in *** and survival (and gender dynamics) as the other main motifs and you have got yourself a win-win situation.

Honestly, Kishimoto ruined this manga all by himself by doing it a disservice; he dragged it all over the place, when plot wise, all clans are worthless. This manga was shouldered from start to the end by the Uchiha, as the so-called mysterious calamity was associated with them. Shame. It could have been so much more than a story aimed at children.

 

[Darth AniCetuS]

I would have preferred this manga to be Seinen and be centered on the Uchiha and the time and space to be the war era. Just shift all Uchiha characters to that time and you have a wonderful manga on politics, war era, fear mongering, in and out-group dynamics, power struggles and the natural demons the Uchiha dealt with because of their powerful chakra and Sharingan. Heck, throw in *** and survival (and gender dynamics) as the other main motifs and you have got yourself a win-win situation.

Honestly, Kishimoto ruined this manga all by himself by doing it a disservice; he dragged it all over the place, when plot wise, all clans are worthless. This manga was shouldered from start to the end by the Uchiha, as the so-called mysterious calamity was associated with them. Shame. It could have been so much more that a story aimed at children.

Uchiha clan and all the notable uchiha character were made that way for a purpose, and the purpose was to play the villain in the manga and I think they served their purpose well. Sure Kishi f**cked up a lot here and there but I am not disappointed by how the manga ended. It could've been better but it's still fine as it is.
Focusing the story on only just one clan would've ruined the fun for me imo as it totally restricts the variety the other clans and villages bring to the manga.

 

[shelke]

Uchiha clan and all the notable uchiha character were made that way for a purpose, and the purpose was to play the villain in the manga and I think they served their purpose well. Sure Kishi f**cked up a lot here and there but I am not disappointed by how the manga ended. It could've been better but it's still fine as it is.
Focusing the story on only just one clan would've ruined the fun for me imo as it totally restricts the variety the other clans and villages bring to the manga.

Uchiha were antagonists, not villians. Well, good for you if you enjoyed the story. I am quite disappointed in how it was played out and the genre under which it was written. With such a high caliber motif like Sharingan? It should never have been wasted on a Shonen manga.

 

[Claymantan]

I would have preferred this manga to be Seinen and be centered on the Uchiha and the time and space to be the war era. Just shift all Uchiha characters to that time and you have a wonderful manga on politics, war era, fear mongering, in and out-group dynamics, power struggles and the natural demons the Uchiha dealt with because of their powerful chakra and Sharingan. Heck, throw in *** and survival (and gender dynamics) as the other main motifs and you have got yourself a win-win situation.

Honestly, Kishimoto ruined this manga all by himself by doing it a disservice; he dragged it all over the place, when plot wise, all clans are worthless. This manga was shouldered from start to the end by the Uchiha, as the so-called mysterious calamity was associated with them. Shame. It could have been so much more that a story aimed at children.

I don't think there's a basis to assume that Kishimoto can handle themes more difficult than revenge.

Aside from that, every Uchiha's character would need a solid revamp. The Senju and Uchiha are even stated to not know why they're fighting, except that they're two powerful clans in proximity. Sasuke is a complex character in the sense that his goals evolve and he's the only character portrayed as having a continuous internal conflict (Obito's internal conflict, even if it makes sense, is developed in a much shorter time and doesn't even come close to comparing; Kakashi's development is erratic). That said, the basis of his internal conflict is pretty juvenile and simple. And then the rest of the Uchiha just plain can't even try to compare.

Also dear God don't let Kishimoto near *** and gender dynamics

 

[Darth AniCetuS]

Uchiha were antagonists, not villians. Well, good for you if you enjoyed the story. I am quite disappointed in how it was played out and the genre under which it was written. With such a high caliber motif like Sharingan? It should never have been wasted on a Shonen manga.

Well everything came from Kishi and its up to him how he wants to carry on a story. Unfortunately for you it didn't end to your liking and I understand totally you being disappointed.

 

[shelke]

I don't think there's a basis to assume that Kishimoto can handle themes more difficult than revenge.

Aside from that, every Uchiha's character would need a solid revamp. The Senju and Uchiha are even stated to not know why they're fighting, except that they're two powerful clans in proximity. Sasuke is a complex character in the sense that his goals evolve and he's the only character portrayed as having a continuous internal conflict (Obito's internal conflict, even if it makes sense, is developed in a much shorter time and doesn't even come close to comparing; Kakashi's development is erratic). That said, the basis of his internal conflict is pretty juvenile and simple. And then the rest of the Uchiha just plain can't even try to compare.

Also dear God don't let Kishimoto near *** and gender dynamics

Revenge itself is a very difficult theme to handle: the entirety of Paradise Lost stands upon it. May be, I am overestimating him, but you have to admit, he brought many original thematic concepts to the manga that were beautifully crafted and exhibited through Sharingan and Akatsuki. What fell flat was their “actual Moon’s eye plan.” The plot to support it was walking on a precarious bridge of typical anime tropes of exaggerated powers. The bridge sank pretty quickly and the themes were swept away with no remorse.

He also dropped a lot of things in the manga; black politics being an elephant in the room that was simply forgotten after the Kage Summit. He asked made people question: Are the Akatsuki really the real villains or are the villages the juggernauts of corruption? He created a very mature commentary on how massacre and ethnic cleansing is done to maintain a balance of power and innocents are killed without discrimination.

It was probably his editor that told him to apply the breaks, as the manga suddenly and sharply shifted to awarding Konoha various accolades that center around the despicable Will of Fire … and I was left scratching my head as to where that political thread even went?

Sasuke’s internal conflict and complexity is unmatched across many domains. I have written long posts on this. But I made this post in an earlier thread:

Spoiler

The only accurate one out of your list is Danzo, and Kabuto ... to an extent. The rest of them (bar Sasuke) are Godawful. In fact Shikamaru is a product of lazy, terrible writing; the bizarre axioms established amongst the select portion of Naruto demographic for him being even worthy of a moment's glance on this front just baffles me. In fact, he literally personifies the writer's laziness to even craft something close to possessing a semblance of a caricature, yet alone a character. Itachi stands along the same sidelines. I’ll challenge anyone to prove to me if he isn’t a silly caricature the manga accidently intended him to be.

Sasuke is the sole character in the entire manga with depth, agency, contradicting, unpredictable stances, the realism associated with a man’s psyche; you cannot predict a human being. They are unpredictable creatures, embracing persistent inconsistencies, prone to mistakes, terrible ones, marred by flaws and married to their own romantic notions of life. It’s the flaw in Sasuke, realistic flaws, his shifting personae in the face of events that charge at him and he pushes back relentlessly to get even or fall back down at fate’s mercy. It’s a repetitive cycle of a mortal man who gets no reprieve from the assaults on his soma.

That is all what a human being is; part fate and part agency. Sasuke encapsulates it so brilliantly, that I feel he is beyond the reach of an average anime viewer who hasn’t studied critical thought and various mental attribution theories in regards to understanding the psychology of characters. Honestly, even Danzo is laughable by comparison, despite being well-written for this medium.

The complexity, modern and Classical, in Sasuke’s variegated personality is unmatched in most postmodern works I have come across. He beats out Kusanagi in Ghost in the Shell by a fairly large margin; something, I never thought possible. It’s just the sheer brilliance of corrupted mystic philosophy of existence, the modern shenanigans and axioms of societal mores and the cultural dogmas he stands against. He’s the persona non grata, left outside the shores of a juggernaut who faulted and wronged him. It’s … it’s genius writing.

Honestly, Sasuke has never got the recognition and Kishimoto the well-deserved accolades for penning a genuinely accurate character that embodies the vacillating and fickle Nature of a man, the battle against the hard-held, inconceivably corrupt dogmas born of eons of indoctrination, tragedy, peripeteia, the pathos of a man and the gradual catharsis that comes when Sasuke pushes the plot back, taking the reins of chariot of Time and Fate in his own hands.

As I said, most people have never done this character justice. Its depth is a stuff of brilliance; a true literary accomplishment in such an immature medium plagued by the scourge of repetitive, tedious tropes. Sasuke embodies them and the heterogeneous mixture comes out as something astonishingly fresh. Add the symbolic, recurrent motifs of Sharingan, the struggle of clan against its own demons and you have that must more layers added to his varied and remarkably mature characterization from an author that obviously struggles between his own worth as a writer and tug of war with his clumsy editors.

Sigh …

What makes his character complex is the persistence of conflict, the inconsistency, the unpredictability and the many metaphors his character carries in the manga. I have said it before and I’ll say it again: this character is a stuff of genius and beautiful penning. You can easily write a Thesis on the guy’s “agency and conflict” alone. I am not even touching the Classical and Modern Tragedy basis for parts of his character.

What held the Uchiha back were the other clans. Kishimoto had to conflate this whole silly rivalry to create the clans showdown. Things were stuff in for a good measure. Madara and Hashirama’s friendship just happened and it magically carried on for years. Naruto always gave Sasuke the most relentless chase fueled by nothing but unconditional love. It’s basis? Threadbare anime clichés and mostly silly tropes of “they are bestest friends”.

Take out all of this “opposition” from the plot that was to inevitably lead to some kind of consensus and you have a clean slate on the other side of the board. With nothing forced to be soldered to the Uchiha with the whole “their love needs to be given a temper” nonsense, and the motifs will flourish all on their own. It’s not even that tough a concept.

I think with a good editor he could have managed it. What Kishimoto has is children’s romance. It was never passion, *** and intrigue. He went there slightly with Mei, but dropped it like a boiling cauldron. This is what I never understood; why did he pick upon such threads when they were doomed to obscurity? I have always thought about it a lot.

Well everything came from Kishi and its up to him how he wants to carry on a story. Unfortunately for you it didn't end to your liking and I understand totally you being disappointed.

I was going more along the lines of Medias Res, but okay.

 

[Claymantan]

Before I respond, I gotta pick this out:

He also dropped a lot of things in the manga; black politics being an elephant in the room that was simply forgotten after the Kage Summit.

I definitely think you're giving Kishi way more credit here than he deserves. Unless there's a scan that shows that this was anything near an issue, I strongly doubt he had any intention ever to address something like racial politics. Unless I'm misunderstanding what you're saying.

Revenge itself is a very difficult theme to handle: the entirety of Paradise Lost stands upon it. May be, I am overestimating him, but you have to admit, he brought many original thematic concepts to the manga that were beautifully crafted and exhibited through Sharingan and Akatsuki. What fell flat was their “actual Moon’s eye plan.” The plot to support it was walking on a precarious bridge of typical anime tropes of exaggerated powers. The bridge sank pretty quickly and the themes were swept away with no remorse.

He also dropped a lot of things in the manga; black politics being an elephant in the room that was simply forgotten after the Kage Summit. He asked made people question: Are the Akatsuki really the real villains or are the villages the juggernauts of corruption? He created a very mature commentary on how massacre and ethnic cleansing is done to maintain a balance of power and innocents are killed without discrimination.

Eh, I disagree, in the sense that it's not that "the bridge sank pretty quickly" - it sank immediately. Naruto and Iruka's relationship is basically the first example of how Kishi would deal with revenge and the deaths of innocents in war or otherwise. Love conquers all is the solution. In the same manner, Haku, in spite of experiencing this same kind of discrimination and violence, doesn't really incorporate that experience into his character all that much. He attaches himself to Zabuza because Zabuza arguably saved him from it, but Haku himself doesn't really express any opinions that relate to that history. Uzumaki Clan's demise is the same story - it happens offscreen and is completely irrelevant to characters like Mito, Kushina, Karin, and Naruto. This trend just generally continues for everyone who has a grievance related to that kind of persecution, with Sasuke being the only real aversion.

Still, when the Uchiha Clan Massacre happened, it's not even shown as a significant blip on the village's emotional radar. Which is just insane.

I really think Kishimoto was just milking the idea of overly tragic backstories to justify a villain's behavior, and therefore to make Talk no Jutsu more effective. Same as any shonen typical shonen writer. And I really think he straight up diminishes the significance of these forms of violence.

It was probably his editor that told him to apply the breaks, as the manga suddenly and sharply shifted to awarding Konoha various accolades that center around the despicable Will of Fire … and I was left scratching my head as to where that political thread even went?

See above; it was never really there.

Sasuke’s internal conflict and complexity is unmatched across many domains. I have written long posts on this. But I made this post in an earlier thread:

[snipping out the post]

What makes his character complex is the persistence of conflict, the inconsistency, the unpredictability and the many metaphors his character carries in the manga. I have said it before and I’ll say it again: this character is a stuff of genius and beautiful penning. You can easily write a Thesis on the guy’s “agency and conflict” alone. I am not even touching the Classical and Modern Tragedy basis for parts of his character.

When it comes to Sasuke, I'm not really interested in denying what people want to pull from his character. I'm sure there's plenty there, and I did enjoy his character, but I personally feel that the things that were compelling about his character fell apart sometime between when he resurrected the Hokages and when he actually joined the War Arc.

What held the Uchiha back were the other clans. Kishimoto had to conflate this whole silly rivalry to create the clans showdown. Things were stuff in for a good measure. Madara and Hashirama’s friendship just happened and it magically carried on for years. Naruto always gave Sasuke the most relentless chase fueled by nothing but unconditional love. It’s basis? Threadbare anime clichés and mostly silly tropes of “they are bestest friends”.

Take out all of this “opposition” from the plot that was to inevitably lead to some kind of consensus and you have a clean slate on the other side of the board. With nothing forced to be soldered to the Uchiha with the whole “their love needs to be given a temper” nonsense, and the motifs will flourish all on their own. It’s not even that tough a concept.

I think you're underestimating the skill it takes to actually develop and cultivate these themes into a cogent and relatable story. Kishimoto isn't Milton.

And about that "friendship just happening" thing, it's actually the most consistent thing about the manga; unconditional love cures all. Even Sasuke being tempered by love was heavily foreshadowed; his brother tells him that no matter what, he will always love Sasuke. This is a relationship that Sasuke considers his most significant, and Itachi's love for his brother is portrayed as a significant reason as to why Sasuke might be amenable to redemption at all. This was always the furthest Kishimoto ever intended to take the motif of revenge and how to end the cycle; as I've stated, he was doing this with relationships like Naruto and Iruka from the get-go.

I think with a good editor he could have managed it. What Kishimoto has is children’s romance. It was never passion, *** and intrigue. He went there slightly with Mei, but dropped it like a boiling cauldron. This is what I never understood; why did he pick upon such threads when they were doomed to obscurity? I have always thought about it a lot.

Mei is a comic relief joke, Kishi thinks it's funny. I don't really see much evidence that he would be willing to explore those themes.

In conclusion, I don't think there's any call to say the manga could ever have been better than it was, with Kishi being the writer that he is. Editors or not. Hell, I'd bet that the editors were frustrated with Kishi for how he handled the War Arc.

 

[shelke]

Before I respond, I gotta pick this out:
I definitely think you're giving Kishi way more credit here than he deserves. Unless there's a scan that shows that this was anything near an issue, I strongly doubt he had any intention ever to address something like racial politics. Unless I'm misunderstanding what you're saying.

I am merely speculating as he did show glimpses of genius from time to time.

Eh, I disagree, in the sense that it's not that "the bridge sank pretty quickly" - it sank immediately. Naruto and Iruka's relationship is basically the first example of how Kishi would deal with revenge and the deaths of innocents in war or otherwise. Love conquers all is the solution. In the same manner, Haku, in spite of experiencing this same kind of discrimination and violence, doesn't really incorporate that experience into his character all that much. He attaches himself to Zabuza because Zabuza arguably saved him from it, but Haku himself doesn't really express any opinions that relate to that history. Uzumaki Clan's demise is the same story - it happens offscreen and is completely irrelevant to characters like Mito, Kushina, Karin, and Naruto. This trend just generally continues for everyone who has a grievance related to that kind of persecution, with Sasuke being the only real aversion.

But that is the thing: other clans held the star clan back. That is what I have been stating all along. These relationships were built to create a pointless nexus that went nowhere other than fuel the laughable "kids' agenda" level cliches.

Love conquers all tied together somehow at Naruto; he’s that pointless junction that eradicated any semblance of realism this manga could have had and perpetually connects the dots of love across seemingly impossible origins. Look at Nagato. Leaf’s corruption was given full exhibition through him. What happened? Naruto launches into a hilariously pathetic speech that wouldn’t sway a kid to get off a swing and would probably earn him a generous kick in his nuts. But Nagato? He simply tossed the years of suffering inflicted upon him by none other than the top echelons of Leaf.

Leaf deserved to be rent asunder, until none remained. The manga, somehow, and rather grotesquely went back and picked up Orochimaru’s solution: Death is better in the face of Will of Fire. All of his struggle amounted to nothing. His life amounted to nothing. Those wars amounted to nothing. His displacement, hunger, shame and lack of anchor in childhood amounted to nothing … just because Naruto thinks love conquers all and Jiraiya's fanfiction staring Kushina and Minato with all sorts of hanky-panky was so cool. The main character, is ironically, the biggest bane and the pain in the ass of this manga. It’s silly and ironic.

Still, when the Uchiha Clan Massacre happened, it's not even shown as a significant blip on the village's emotional radar. Which is just insane.

I really think Kishimoto was just milking the idea of overly tragic backstories to justify a villain's behavior, and therefore to make Talk no Jutsu more effective. Same as any shonen typical shonen writer. And I really think he straight up diminishes the significance of these forms of violence.

It was brought back with full force from Sasuke in the Taka arc. It culminated rather soundlessly after Itachi’s arrival. One could suggest that the war-arc killed the final vestiges of its form, but for me, the idea began to lose its value when Sasuke killed Danzo. There was this indecisiveness brought about by Naruto’s speeches again. And I knew this would lead nowhere.

But you cannot say that it was never brought up again in the summit. Obito’s pointless speech on the forth ninja war only made it crumble even more.

When it comes to Sasuke, I'm not really interested in denying what people want to pull from his character. I'm sure there's plenty there, and I did enjoy his character, but I personally feel that the things that were compelling about his character fell apart sometime between when he resurrected the Hokages and when he actually joined the War Arc.

That is the problem with “genre conventions.” All novels suffer from it, as the work has to be “tied up.” E.M Forster puts it very brilliantly when he states that this is a structural problem of almost all the works of fictions. The writer wants to tie it all up and tries his hardest to make it fit within the original mold he created, which makes the work fall apart.

Adding to this are the laughably petty scopes of consciousness and morality, which critics like Forster and Oatley consider a stuff of foolishness. Making a character palatable and cookie-cutter for the audience seems to be some kind of curse of most writers these days: their predilections for presenting a bow-tied, perfect character is what marred Sasuke quite a bit at the end as well. I actually found the confusion and conflict and reasoning behind his final step about killing the Bijuus and abolishing the system very realistic. It was a cogent argument with merit. As let’s face it; what did Naruto accomplish? It seems like the same cycle of peace. Another tedious historical repetition.

I think you're underestimating the skill it takes to actually develop and cultivate these themes into a cogent and relatable story. Kishimoto isn't Milton.

And about that "friendship just happening" thing, it's actually the most consistent thing about the manga; unconditional love cures all. Even Sasuke being tempered by love was heavily foreshadowed; his brother tells him that no matter what, he will always love Sasuke. This is a relationship that Sasuke considers his most significant, and Itachi's love for his brother is portrayed as a significant reason as to why Sasuke might be amenable to redemption at all. This was always the furthest Kishimoto ever intended to take the motif of revenge and how to end the cycle; as I've stated, he was doing this with relationships like Naruto and Iruka from the get-go.

Of course, he isn't. Their craft is so far apart ... that it would be an insult to Milton to put any writer from pre-Modern era till this time in his league. Consistency is poor writing. This plot lacks the “inconsistency” from events and characters to make it dynamic. It’s a narrative scheme where causality is built upon the same thing over and over and over and over again. This is what I am trying to say. This plot is held back by themes that could easily be pruned to give it shape. Take away the cluster of these useless themes, and you have limited people to manage.
A good author never takes on too many characters, as it’s not possible to do them justice.

The pruning is what I am suggesting. I am not saying anything for a fact.

Mei is a comic relief joke, Kishi thinks it's funny. I don't really see much evidence that he would be willing to explore those themes.

In conclusion, I don't think there's any call to say the manga could ever have been better than it was, with Kishi being the writer that he is. Editors or not. Hell, I'd bet that the editors were frustrated with Kishi for how he handled the War Arc.

Perhaps, you are right. I am merely speculating.

 

[Aznkidd]

If you read the pilot then you should know that Naruto and Kurama were as one in the begining. But in order to get more story out of it, the author split the fox boy into Naruto and Kurama

 

[Claymantan]

Leaf deserved to be rent asunder, until none remained. The manga, somehow, and rather grotesquely went back and picked up Orochimaru’s solution: Death is better in the face of Will of Fire. All of his struggle amounted to nothing. His life amounted to nothing. Those wars amounted to nothing. His displacement, hunger, shame and lack of anchor in childhood amounted to nothing … just because Naruto thinks love conquers all and Jiraiya's fanfiction staring Kushina and Minato with all sorts of hanky-panky was so cool. The main character, is ironically, the biggest bane and the pain in the ass of this manga. It’s silly and ironic.

I agree, basically.

But you cannot say that it was never brought up again in the summit. Obito’s pointless speech on the forth ninja war only made it crumble even more.

Like you said though, the manga was going the way of delegitimizing the pain of characters who had experienced massacres/persecution, for the sake of Naruto's TNJ. So by that point it was hard to even take the theme seriously. Hell, the manga went the way of contributing to people seeing Sasuke as just a whiny douchebag, because throughout the manga not a single massacre had been taken seriously or had actual consequences for the perpetrators (within the continuity of the manga; I guess Hanzo died but like that happened in one page, it was another small blip).

That is the problem with “genre conventions.” All novels suffer from it, as the work has to be “tied up.” E.M Forster puts it very brilliantly when he states that this is a structural problem of almost all the works of fictions. The writer wants to tie it all up and tries his hardest to make it fit within the original mold he created, which makes the work fall apart.

Adding to this are the laughably petty scopes of consciousness and morality, which critics like Forster and Oatley consider a stuff of foolishness. Making a character palatable and cookie-cutter for the audience seems to be some kind of curse of most writers these days: their predilections for presenting a bow-tied, perfect character is what marred Sasuke quite a bit at the end as well.

This is interesting, and I do agree that writers trying to tie everything up can result in the narrative feeling rather dry and flaccid, even if they do it believably (the season finale of Breaking Bad is an example). But I also think it's possible to make a consistent narrative that follows some formula and still have it be an impressive work. Obviously successful examples of both styles exist in fiction (Kerouac vs. Conrad).

I'm not arguing that consistency is a good thing or a bad thing, though. I was saying that the consistency of Kishi's relying on unconditional love as a catch-all solution shows that he never really intended anything greater to emerge from the story. I guess I'm saying the consistency is evidence of mediocrity.

I actually found the confusion and conflict and reasoning behind his final step about killing the Bijuus and abolishing the system very realistic. It was a cogent argument with merit. As let’s face it; what did Naruto accomplish? It seems like the same cycle of peace. Another tedious historical repetition.

Eh, I found it kind of cliche and contrived. But that's just my subjective experience of it. I agree that Naruto's solution was no solution at all, though.

Of course, he isn't. Their craft is so far apart ... that it would be an insult to Milton to put any writer from pre-Modern era till this time in his league. Consistency is poor writing. This plot lacks the “inconsistency” from events and characters to make it dynamic. It’s a narrative scheme where causality is built upon the same thing over and over and over and over again. This is what I am trying to say. This plot is held back by themes that could easily be pruned to give it shape. Take away the cluster of these useless themes, and you have limited people to manage.

A good author never takes on too many characters, as it’s not possible to do them justice.

The pruning is what I am suggesting. I am not saying anything for a fact.

Right, but from the start these are all things that Kishi inverted. XD That's why I think the idea that something more complex could ever have emerged is a pipedream.

 

[shelke]

I agree, basically.

Like you said though, the manga was going the way of delegitimizing the pain of characters who had experienced massacres/persecution, for the sake of Naruto's TNJ. So by that point it was hard to even take the theme seriously. Hell, the manga went the way of contributing to people seeing Sasuke as just a whiny douchebag, because throughout the manga not a single massacre had been taken seriously or had actual consequences for the perpetrators (within the continuity of the manga; I guess Hanzo died but like that happened in one page, it was another small blip).

That was the thing that bothered me. Kishimoto picking up plotlines and then hammering them like those washermen beating the shit out of clothes in those open air launderettes in South Asia. The small blips you speak of precisely the reason why I dislike the plot as a whole. If that is what he wanted to go for, then was no reason to string readers like me along. I call it intentionally misleading a reader, and it's annoying.

This is interesting, and I do agree that writers trying to tie everything up can result in the narrative feeling rather dry and flaccid, even if they do it believably (the season finale of Breaking Bad is an example). But I also think it's possible to make a consistent narrative that follows some formula and still have it be an impressive work. Obviously successful examples of both styles exist in fiction (Kerouac vs. Conrad).

I'm not arguing that consistency is a good thing or a bad thing, though. I was saying that the consistency of Kishi's relying on unconditional love as a catch-all solution shows that he never really intended anything greater to emerge from the story. I guess I'm saying the consistency is evidence of mediocrity.

This guy had a manga spanning well over a decade. If you cannot come up with a decent tie up then, then it's a telling tale of the mess he created for himself. This manga had too many characters. Too many of them. There is no way he could have handled them properly. The result was chaos at the end. Sasuke is the only good thing this manga ever produced.

Eh, I found it kind of cliche and contrived. But that's just my subjective experience of it. I agree that Naruto's solution was no solution at all, though.

I looked at in a way that it was an actual solution. Abolishing the ninja system would have done the world a whole lot of good. Assimilating everyone under one wing was also a great idea. Otherwise, the persona non grata in this universe are dealt with just as severelly as in real life, and I am no fan of political ethos.

Right, but from the start these are all things that Kishi inverted. XD That's why I think the idea that something more complex could ever have emerged is a pipedream.

Haha, I am only speculating. It is a pipedream as it is not going to happen.

 

[gerizzyYMcrew]

Sasuke is the only good thing this manga ever produced.

you mean sasuke/vegeta/hiei/krapika/killua/koji?

 

[Obito the supreme jin]

Do trolls even try anymore. It's not all about power lmao, character development is crucial.