The Senju clan's survival introduces a plothole.

[HowDidIGetPrem]

Ashura was supposedly a talentless hack with no genetic prowess like his brother(aside from maybe stamina) that could only get on equal grounds with Indra with the help of many people.

Spoiler

You must be registered for see images

Down the road, his training unlocks him strong vitality that he somehow passes on. He and his descendants went on to become the Senju. The Senju(literally "Thousand Skills") has theoretically kept up with Uchiha through use of many various justu alongside their vitality, but this still doesn't explain the two being equal for multiple reasons:

1. Many Senju died in their youth and it's not like young children are born with the justu of their parents.

Spoiler

You must be registered for see images

Senju are most definitely late bloomers due to the fact that justu is something that's learned over time, so this is major. This definitely applies to to the Uchiha too, but Uchiha have the benefit of possibly awakening Sharingan from this fact.

---

2. The Sharingan can pick up the Senju's justu faster than their own children could ever hope. There was definitely no shortage of it during a war that spanned centuries.

---

3. Both Uchiha and Senju used cooperation, so no one is edging the other out with it unless Senju bred like mice.

Spoiler

You must be registered for see images

Even then, Madara had 4 brothers himself(

You must be registered for see links

).

---

It all boils down to the fact that neither the Senju's vitality or the Uchiha's chakra has any real edge over the other to begin with(Tobirama vs Izumi), and as one progresses with time(Sharingan), the other does too(justu). This introduces the problem that as the justu user progresses by learning more justu, the Sharingan user does so too and more efficiently through copying and gaining tomoes to slow the world around them. It also rests on the assumption that the Sharingan user only advances their Sharingan and spends no time training.

"Uchiha probably can't compete with the Senju's use of justu because they don't have fat pools of chakra for it." Or so you would think, but Madara could already wipe out multiple adult Senjus(

You must be registered for see links

) before gaining even a single tomoe due to being Indra's reincarnation despite also being too young to have many justu. Madara and Hashirama are definitely outliers, but there's still the fact the reincarnations are far stronger than the rest of the clan & their difference in mentality should mean the death of the Senju. All the Ashuras we've seen thus far were super reluctant to kill, while the Indras didn't hesitate to do it. Shouldn't Indras wiping out adult Senjus create a serious imbalance from the fact that it would result in more adult Uchihas(that should already be more capable than adult Senjus) than Senjus?

 

[Uverdore9]

It's mainly because of hashirama. He had wood element, sage mode, asura spirit in his body etc. Uchihas base >> Senju base obviously. And the senju were skilled but I still think how they outbeat uzumaki who are seemingly powerful than them, probably through an alliance? I still can't believe hashirama can beat this thing with his jutsu and if hashirama cant then no one in the clan can

Spoiler

You must be registered for see images

add this with death reaper seal and you got the one of the most OP humans in NV and the worse thing is because uzumaki can survive TB extraction, they can survive death reaper soul offering too. And this is why they were feared. And despite being feared they were never called the strongest despite the fact we've low level clans like hyuga being called a strongest clan after uchiha and senju really...it's a mystery.

 

[Exaar]

1. I'm pretty sure the life expectancy statement was overall, Including Senju and Uchiha.

2. Uchiha having the sharingan to pick up jutsu's doesn't mean anything if the user hasn't the skill, Chakra pool or nature transformation to be able to use Said Jutsu, to get said skill they still needed to train, so it wasn't as large a gap between Uchiha/Senju learning jutsu as you would think.

3. Indra's not caring about killing ashura's reincarnates doesn't mean they could even if they wanted too, Even if Ashura's didn't want to kill, As long as they can match indra's they can cause a stalemate where they kill each other or making so that both are unable to kill each other regardless of intent.

 

[HowDidIGetPrem]

Hogaromo's power up handout passed down to Ashura descendants so they could may h the Uchiha clan.

That only led to the two standing on equal ground(Tobirama & his father vs Madara's dad & Izumi).

It's mainly because of hashirama. He had wood element, sage mode, asura spirit in his body etc. Uchihas base >> Senju base obviously. And the senju were skilled but I still think how they outbeat uzumaki who are seemingly powerful than them, probably through an alliance? I still can't believe hashirama can beat this thing with his jutsu and if hashirama cant then no one in the clan can

Spoiler

You must be registered for see images

add this with death reaper seal and you got the one of the most OP humans in NV and the worse thing is because uzumaki can survive TB extraction, they can survive death reaper soul offering too. And this is why they were feared. And despite being feared they were never called the strongest despite the fact we've low level clans like hyuga being called a strongest clan after uchiha and senju really...it's a mystery.

Their alliance to the Uzumaki was probably a big contribution, but even so the Uchiha were allied with Hagoromo's clan. Hashirama isn't really a factor, though. I'm referring to all the centuries before he entered the stage and made the Uchiha clan surrender.

 

[HowDidIGetPrem]

1. I'm pretty sure the life expectancy statement was overall, Including Senju and Uchiha.

I addressed this:

1. Many Senju died in their youth and it's not like young children are born with the justu of their parents.

Spoiler

You must be registered for see images

Senju are most definitely late bloomers due to the fact that justu is something that's learned over time, so this is major. This definitely applies to to the Uchiha too, but Uchiha have the benefit of possibly awakening Sharingan from this fact.

^^

2. Uchiha having the sharingan to pick up jutsu's doesn't mean anything if the user hasn't the skill, Chakra pool or nature transformation to be able to use Said Jutsu, to get said skill they still needed to train, so it wasn't as large a gap between Uchiha/Senju learning jutsu as you would think.

The same applies to Senju passing on justu. Naturally they'd have to train, but definitely not as much, and it does mean something if the user already has the Sharingan since jutsu progression is mean't to keep up with the Sharingan's.

3. Indra's not caring about killing ashura's reincarnates doesn't mean they could even if they wanted too, Even if Ashura's didn't want to kill, As long as they can match indra's they can cause a stalemate where they kill each other or making so that both are unable to kill each other regardless of intent.

Note the fact that I'm not referring to Indra reincarnates taking down Ashuras, but the Senju clan.

 

[Uverdore9]

Lol I'm laughing at that post which said "you need the skill to use the copied jutsu" lmao.....It's a known fact that there is no genius more genius than uchiha so uchiha will easily pick up, Sasuke mastered a taijutsu which takes years to learn according to lee in weeks just shows you how potent and surreal uchiha genius is....mastering senju's jutsus is childs play..LOL people underrating uchiha skill to cover up for the obvious plot hole the senju has officially created in the series. The only thing they wouldnt copy is wood element. Period. Not every senju have wood. Period.

 

[Rikudou Tobi]

You can't say that hashirama and madara are outliers when you have people like itachi or shisui who shown more potential/power than madara and hashirama at such a young age.

I don't remember where the manga said that the senjus had a "thousand skills" (if they did then correct me), but from what the manga said in the history of the senju is that they are the "thousand armed clan of the forest" which makes sense given the fact that hashirama's ultimate move is a 1,000 armed kanon.

Spoiler

You must be registered for see images

The point is that the senjus vitality lets the senjus attack a thousand times over before reaching their limit while the uchiha clan's powerful chakra allows them to use their power resourcefully without dumping so much chakra to match the senju's vitality.

The senjus are known for cooperation and they never hold back. They are the thousand armed clan of the forest, they aid each other better than the uchihas evidently hashirama and tobirama's relationship proves that. Tobirama said that he and his brother trained all the time all the way up to him gaining Sage mode. Izuna did help train madara to an extent but he never got extraordinarily stronger until after Izuna's death. Case in point Senjus cooperation is better than the Uchihas who abandon a clan when their brother is in danger.

They also do not hold back 100%. Butsuma tried to kill Izuna as a baby, tobirama killed izuna with a blindside attack when he was down, and hashirama who fought fairly with madara for a while finally use the art of misdirection to feint attack madara from behind. The only person who ever fought fairly and are of senju descent is Naruto. Even Pain nagato one of my favorite characters still didn't fight fairly against Hanzo and Jiraiya.

 

[salamander uchiha]

I think tehy did breed like mice but it required Hashirama to ubfiy them sk they could stand up to the Uchiha.

 

[HowDidIGetPrem]

You can't say that hashirama and madara are outliers when you have people like itachi or shisui who shown more potential/power than madara and hashirama at such a young age.

"You can't say that outliers are outliers when more outliers exist." You do realize Obito and Itachi alone took out the entire Uchiha clan right? Even if you attribute most of it to Obito, Itachi kept Obito in check himself.

I don't remember where the manga said that the senjus had a "thousand skills" (

You must be registered for see links

, just read under their symbol.

 

[Rikudou Tobi]

"You can't say that outliers are outliers when more outliers exist." You do realize Obito and Itachi alone took out the entire Uchiha clan right? Even if you attribute most of it to Obito, Itachi kept Obito in check himself.

Itachi and Shisui were notable people who were uchihas that were stronger than the senjus on average. I think Kagami was considered the same way to Tobirama (maybe) but if you look at itachi's novel. Itachi skills and powers where so great that it surpassed everyone in the academy, and the senju instructors envied him for being better at such a young age.
That's why I said itachi and shishui at a young age.

Obito was like every other average uchiha at a young age, i'm not talking about adult tobi/obito who was 20 years old when he slaughtered the clan and soloed the mist village himself controlling the 4th mizukage. That tobito possessed the training and skill necessary to fight the leaf village at the age of 14 while taming the kyubi should not be compared to the likes of itachi, shisui, madara, and hashirama at such a young age.
Obito had six path power at that age so is chakra was exponentially greater. It took Madara Ems age 50 to match or overtake the 14 yr old tobi/obito feat while itachi came nowhere close. Then at age 20 he finally successfully takes down on of the 5 great nations which is obscene. The only person who can surpass that feat as such a young age is Naruto and Sasuke so using Obito as an example would be a bad idea.

Point is that we have Uchihas who were better than the people you called "outliers" during the exact same age. The type of training and skill they have should be taken into account too don't you agree?

You must be registered for see links

, just read under their symbol.

Dude I said the manga. Is there anywhere in the manga where thousand skill is mentioned or is it just the wikipedia?

 

[HowDidIGetPrem]

Point is that we have Uchihas who were better than the people you called "outliers" during the exact same age. The type of training and skill they have should be taken into account too don't you agree?

Those Uchiha are still outliers and Obito certainly wasn't a typical Uchiha considering he awakened MS when Madara and Izuna were the only ones to awaken it all the centuries before Obito. Itachi still kept Obito in check, so I really don't see any indication that Obito is that much more than Itachi in a 1v1. Not to mention they're all outliers in different regards. Itachi in intelligence, Madara in chakra, Obito just because Madara interfered with him and gave him the ability to use his MS without blinding.

Dude I said the manga. Is there anywhere in the manga where thousand skill is mentioned or is it just the wikipedia?

Its literally their name's translation.

 

[Rikudou Tobi]

Those Uchiha are still outliers and Obito certainly wasn't a typical Uchiha considering he awakened MS when Madara and Izuna were the only ones to awaken it all the centuries before Obito. Itachi still kept Obito in check, so I really don't see any indication that Obito is that much more than Itachi in a 1v1. Not to mention they're all outliers in different regards. Itachi in intelligence, Madara in chakra, Obito just because Madara interfered with him and gave him the ability to use his MS without blinding.

Itachi did not keep him in check, he kept Danzo and the elders in check. The only thing Itachi did was come to an agreement with Tobi is that if he left the leaf village alone, he would not spill akatsuki's secrets to the leaf village. He literally told Sasuke this. 1v1 he still loses to him unless he manages to use KA because besides that the strength in power is way different. Six path power is greater than anyone who doesn't have it.

Regardless of opinions because this is not a itachi vs tobito thread, ouliers means a person or thing that is different from the rest of the group. You can't have like 5-6 outliers in one group (clan) because their can only be one for that meaning to work. The newer generation is always being portrayed to supersede the next to a certain extent.

Its literally their name's translation.

No it's not

You must be registered for see images

Are you telling me that this thousand skill thing is another fanfic translation? Jesus Christ Exaar wtf are you telling these people.

 

[HowDidIGetPrem]

Regardless of opinions because this is not a itachi vs tobito thread, ouliers means a person or thing that is different from the rest of the group. You can't have like 5-6 outliers in one group (clan) because their can only be one for that meaning to work.

5-6 outliers over the course of generations.. Jesus man. Next you're gonna say Edison wasn't an outlier because of all the geniuses that came before. lol. And are we gonna believe a single translation over a meticulous archive of all things Naruto? It's probably not even a Viz translation.

 

[Rikudou Tobi]

5-6 outliers over the course of generations.. Jesus man. Next you're gonna say Edison wasn't an outlier because of all the geniuses that came before. lol. And are we gonna believe a single translation over a meticulous archive of all things Naruto? It's probably not even a Viz translation.

It is viz translated that's why I posted it in the first place. And I understand that you're saying that it's over the course of generations but Madara was really not that far off from Izuna when they both awakened their mangekyo sharingan. So it's understandable to see uchihas preform feats like Madara (as a kid), right?

 

[HowDidIGetPrem]

It is viz translated that's why I posted it in the first place. And I understand that you're saying that it's over the course of generations but Madara was really not that far off from Izuna when they both awakened their mangekyo sharingan. So it's understandable to see uchihas preform feats like Madara (as a kid), right?

As in kill adult Senju? As adult Uchiha yea. I don't recall Madara performing any real feats as a kid besides that.

 

[Rikudou Tobi]

As in kill adult Senju? As adult Uchiha yea. I don't recall Madara performing any real feats as a kid besides that.

I mean as the uchiha's being kids and replicating madara's kid feats during the flashback.

 

[lImmortal Regis]

As in kill adult Senju? As adult Uchiha yea. I don't recall Madara performing any real feats as a kid besides that.

Madara was fighting Hashirama on equal ground, while Izuna got killed by Tobirama also that fight was bullshit. Izuna never used any of the MS techniques even though he had them. Also Madara said that he had big reserves of chakra even for an Uchiha.

 

[HowDidIGetPrem]

I mean as the uchiha's being kids and replicating madara's kid feats during the flashback.

lol fuk no. Izuna himself was shocked that another kid was stronger than Madara.

 

[Rikudou Tobi]

lol fuk no. Izuna himself was shocked that another kid was stronger than Madara.

itachi was stronger than madara at that age so he'll have no problem killing adult senjus. kid hashirama who was slightly stronger than kid madara pre sharingan didn't kill any adult uchihas but that doesn't mean he can't replicate that feat too so why not included kid izuna who was slightly weaker than kid madara?
sasuke at madara's age would definitely kill adult senjus too because his feats and power is way greater than madara's at that time too.

that's why i questioned your outliers comment because you are one of the many people that think madara is the strongest uchiha from start to finish, and that's false. itachi, sasuke, shisui, and even obito during the same age as kid madara would kill adult senjus too.
even their ms versions of themselves is stronger than ms madara, the only time madara took off is when he obtained Ems in his 40-50s

 

[Brady]

To be honest, being masters of thousands of jutsu can't beat people who can master jutsu faster than you naturally, and have an eye that can break down any jutsu to it's simplest form and replicate it. It was a ridiculous plot-hole, with the Uchiha already being called a clan that excelled in all forms of warfare.

Two clans who excel in all forms of warfare, and one has a Kekkei Genkai that amplifies this ability. Exactly how the could the Senju overall be stronger? If we're being honest, the Senju are just lucky that the Uchiha's Mangekyo users were born too late.