The Senju bros: Realist vs Idealist discussion (Serious talk no trolling please.)

[KingHashirama]

So Hashirama is the "naive" "idealist" brother of the 2 brothers. And Tobirama is the "realist" "smart" brother.


Realist:
The definition of a realist is a person who can look at things as they are and deal with it in a practical manner, or an artist or philosopher who believes in showing and discussing realism rather than visionary thoughts.


Idealist:
The definition of an idealist is a person guided by principles or hopes rather than by practicality.


There are the definitions of the realists and idealists. So going on that how exactly can you call Hashirama only a idealist.. even though he is more of a realist then Tobirama.



Hashirama's actions:

• Letting Madara live :

Now this should be common sense. If you trying to start a peace treaty, and instead kill the leader of that clan.. your basically enforcing your law on them. However, Hashirama's idea was to do it through understanding, and which worked. Plus, he knew Madara's death would've caused the young uchiha who looked up to him, to bear hatred in their hearts.

Spoiler

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• Creation of Konoha:

Creation of Konoha put a end to the "state-war" era, in which the normal lifespan was only 30 years. He knew that the settling down of the 2 biggest clans would ease the tensions of the countries and the ninja clans. He analyzed the situation as a young kid, who himself saw his brothers get killed.

Spoiler

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• Not segregating the Uchiha:

This was the best thing to do.. you have just killed a leader of the Uchiha clan, who was telling them to run away, because if Tobirama becomes the second Hokage he would segregate them. To counter Madara's thoughts the logical and the real thing to do was to treat the Uchiha the same as any other village ninja.


Tobirama was completely wrong here, saying Hashirama was the naive one who believed that the clans could co-exist. However, he himself was the one who was looking at the people by their clans , instead of individuals.



Conclusion:

Overall, Hashirama was yes a idealist.. but also a realist.. Same can be said for Tobirama. But calling Tobirama a more realist person is just false...


TOBIRAMA SUPPORTERS PLEASE POST THE COUNTERS TO THE EVENTS I MENTIONED BY TOBIRAMA, or how HASHIRAMA IS A NAIVE GUY. THANK YOU!

 

[Moss]

Nice thread. Lol

 

[HashiramaDescendant]

I agree entirely. Always spot on, King.

 

[CurseSealofEarth]

There is some level of truth to what you have said. There obviously was some thought that had to have gone into Tobirama's decision, not just some off-hand "Lets put them on the OTHER side of the wall. You know, in case."

 

[Domo Genesis]

Nice thread bro.

 

[SIR HERDERP PRESIDERP SDO]

I think ultimately after the VotE fight, Hashirama became both an idealist and realist balancing the former with the latter so I would have to choose Hashirama.

 

[Nous]

Well done. I like this thread - I wish to see some productive conversation happening. Good Luck! =D =D

 

[HiddenSound]

I agree entirely. Always spot on, King.

I wonder why you think he's spot on all the time...

OT: Sorry for pestering as I don't care all that much about debating the two's philosophies :/ I just prefer Tobirama

 

[SenseiMartian]

I think that Hashirama believed/had faith and was thus an idealist, but growing up in harsh times (under a harsh father) made him realize that not everything will always work out. He tried to carry these things over, and the results were some of the points you listed; but as a result, he is seen as a lax "ruler".

 

[KingHashirama]

I think ultimately after the VotE fight, Hashirama became both an idealist and realist balancing the former with the latter so I would have to choose Hashirama.

I believe he was already a realist at this scene, realizing something Tobirama and other kids didn't realize, realization that power is thing that will make everyone listen to him. :

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There is some level of truth to what you have said. There obviously was some thought that had to have gone into Tobirama's decision, not just some off-hand "Lets put them on the OTHER side of the wall. You know, in case."

Well he himself said that it was for "just in case " they turned evil. lol.

I think that Hashirama believed/had faith and was thus an idealist, but growing up in harsh times (under a harsh father) made him realize that not everything will always work out. He tried to carry these things over, and the results were some of the points you listed; but as a result, he is seen as a lax "ruler".

Tobirama had "faith" that segregating the Uchiha would ease the tensions or w.e.. but it made them worst, out of the 2 Tobirama personally is the more idealistic one.

And it was that he grew in harsh times that he had to believe in something. However, he did not completely forget the truth about his world.. how his brothers were killed. He did not ignore those things, infact he came with a answer of "understanding".

 

[SIR HERDERP PRESIDERP SDO]

I believe he was already a realist at this scene, realizing something Tobirama and other kids didn't realize, realization that power is thing that will make everyone listen to him. :

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Well he himself said that it was for "just in case " they turned evil. lol.

You have a point, but I believe Hashirama's realism came into full maturation during the VotE fight:

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Even Madara noticed it.

 

[KingHashirama]

You have a point, but I believe Hashirama's realism came into full maturation during the VotE fight:

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Even Madara noticed it.

I see your point there. But for some ironic reason , I found it funny that Madara said that, even though Hashirama most likely has killed in the past.. lol. And not to forget that Madara was the one who put Hashirama into that position. X_X

 

[SIR HERDERP PRESIDERP SDO]

I see your point there. But for some ironic reason , I found it funny that Madara said that, even though Hashirama most likely has killed in the past.. lol. And not to forget that Madara was the one who put Hashirama into that position. X_X

Well the difference of "killing" in this situation is that its' his best friend, someone he shares a bond with but that bond had to be severed for the greater good, which is the protection of Konoha

 

[Transcendence]

I agree. For me Tobirama is a peculiar case. He seems to be more "racist" in a sense if he thinks that someone/something will become a problem. He is a big realist, taking the situation as it is but he is more ideal in his actions; he thought that having the Uchiha not be a big part of the village would be beneficial but in reality as we saw after the Attack on Konoha by Obito+Kurama, it was made even worse. Hashirama seemed to have developed both equally after the fight at the VOTE. At first, during his youth and when the Senju and Uchiha last fought, he was far too ideal in nature always talking about the formation of the village; which Madara thought couldn't be done in his current mental state. His idealism became a reality but fighting Madara the VOTE gave heed to his Realistic nature because he realized that not all good things that you idealize can stay in place forever, and Madara was the representation of that.

Nice thread.

 

[Nous]

He had elements of both within him - he was both an idealist and a realist.

He was an idealist in the sense that he had hope. He had faith that the Uchiha and Senju will fight no longer [

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]. He also dreamed that Konoha would be the utopia he hoped for in the ultimate unification of the Uchiha Clan and the Senju Clan [

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]. He believed as the Senju Clan Ancestor and Naruto believe(d), peace can only be attained through love. This could be views as either idealism or realism but I believe it doesn't lean toward the latter. He also had hope that Madara will stop fighting [

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].

He was a realist in the sense that he understood that things won't always go the way he wanted. For example, when worst came to worst in the fight with Madara, he realized that it was too late [

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]. He also, presumably didn't believe the village would last too long after the Madara Uchiha Conflict that he possessed as he expressed surprise when he discovered there was a Yondaime Hokage [

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]. However something that makes me believe he is more of an idealist than he is a realist is that he still had faith in the Uchiha and respected them despite all the atrocious things Madara Uchiha commited.. or he was scared of Sasuke! [

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].

Overall he followed a more idealism philosophy than he did a realism one. Tobirama is clearly a Utilitarian Realist and Danzo (a character he is frequently compared to) is a Extremist Realist.

 

[onigumo]

Tobirama is portrayed as the more realist brother simply because he never really acted on ideals. He prepared for worst case scenario, but he really understood the uchiha well. He put them on the outskirts because he knew that if those that were strong and experienced intense hatred could wreak havoc on the village. Hashirama was an idealist because he acted on his childhood ideals. He wished for a world of peace where children didn't have to go to war. With his strength, he made that ideal reality. This is my viewpoint, but everyone else has had great points as well.

 

[KingHashirama]

Tobirama is portrayed as the more realist brother simply because he never really acted on ideals. He prepared for worst case scenario, but he really understood the uchiha well. He put them on the outskirts because he knew that if those that were strong and experienced intense hatred could wreak havoc on the village. Hashirama was an idealist because he acted on his childhood ideals. He wished for a world of peace where children didn't have to go to war. With his strength, he made that ideal reality. This is my viewpoint, but everyone else has had great points as well.

He actually did act on ideals.

Spoiler

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The circled in red is his ideal.. the philosophy he lived by.

He had elements of both within him - he was both an idealist and a realist.

He was an idealist in the sense that he had hope. He had faith that the Uchiha and Senju will fight no longer [

You must be registered for see links

]. He also dreamed that Konoha would be the utopia he hoped for in the ultimate unification of the Uchiha Clan and the Senju Clan [

You must be registered for see links

]. He believed as the Senju Clan Ancestor and Naruto believe(d), peace can only be attained through love. This could be views as either idealism or realism but I believe it doesn't lean toward the latter. He also had hope that Madara will stop fighting [

You must be registered for see links

].

He was a realist in the sense that he understood that things won't always go the way he wanted. For example, when worst came to worst in the fight with Madara, he realized that it was too late [

You must be registered for see links

]. He also, presumably didn't believe the village would last too long after the Madara Uchiha Conflict that he possessed as he expressed surprise when he discovered there was a Yondaime Hokage [

You must be registered for see links

]. However something that makes me believe he is more of an idealist than he is a realist is that he still had faith in the Uchiha and respected them despite all the atrocious things Madara Uchiha commited.. or he was scared of Sasuke! [

You must be registered for see links

].




Overall he followed a more idealism philosophy than he did a realism one. Tobirama is clearly a Utilitarian Realist and Danzo (a character he is frequently compared to) is a Extremist Realist.

See here is the thing, Hashirama KNEW 1 person doesn't = the whole clan. He also knew if he treated the Uchiha different, it would cause Madara's "warning" to be true. Tobirama acted on fear and a weak belief and did not think about the long term role... Tobirama basically put it this way: "If Madara turned bad, so can the all of you.. so i'm just going to put you on the side."... thats not how you run a village/country.

As far as Tobirama's idealism goes.. its the same as Hashirama's.. Tobirama believed in firm laws, Hashirama believed in understanding.

I agree. For me Tobirama is a peculiar case. He seems to be more "racist" in a sense if he thinks that someone/something will become a problem. He is a big realist, taking the situation as it is but he is more ideal in his actions; he thought that having the Uchiha not be a big part of the village would be beneficial but in reality as we saw after the Attack on Konoha by Obito+Kurama, it was made even worse. Hashirama seemed to have developed both equally after the fight at the VOTE. At first, during his youth and when the Senju and Uchiha last fought, he was far too ideal in nature always talking about the formation of the village; which Madara thought couldn't be done in his current mental state. His idealism became a reality but fighting Madara the VOTE gave heed to his Realistic nature because he realized that not all good things that you idealize can stay in place forever, and Madara was the representation of that.

Nice thread.

Here is the problem. Hashirama knew that he needed to be the strongest if people were going to be listening to him.

If you talk about realism in the Uchiha case.... Hashirama was the correct one and knew how politics and etc work. Tobirama acted like a hot-headed youngster and BELIEVED that if the Uchiha might revolt someday.. so i'm gonna segregate them.... which was a HORRIBLE IDEA.. in that sense he is less realistic. Realistic is the point of understanding that if you segregate someone it will cause depression and sadness and hatred in their mind. His action against the Uchiha was taken on his faith in "law".

Thanks for the post

Well the difference of "killing" in this situation is that its' his best friend, someone he shares a bond with but that bond had to be severed for the greater good, which is the protection of Konoha

True true. Overlooked the whole bond thing lol.