The reason Madara survived (DETAILED)

[foxyladyland]

It is stated in the manga that you need both the uchiha and the senju DNA for izanagi. You don't need it for izanami like Itachi proved.

kabuto might have experimented with zetsu by using the hashi cells to strengthen his edo tensei bodies.....
XD

 

[tife]

I think Senju DNA only prolongs Izanagi.
Remember it is labeled a Kinjutsu among the Uchihas, are you trying to say they all had Senju DNA? Izanami was created to counter Izanagi. Danzo needed Senju DNA to maintain the amount of Sharingan he possesses and prolong Izanagi timing.
Any Uchiha can perform Izanagi without needing Senju DNA.

 

[foxyladyland]

I think Senju DNA only prolongs Izanagi.
Remember it is labeled a Kinjutsu among the Uchihas, are you trying to say they all had Senju DNA? Izanami was created to counter Izanagi. Danzo needed Senju DNA to maintain the amount of Sharingan he possesses and prolong Izanagi timing.
Any Uchiha can perform Izanagi without needing Senju DNA.

I think danzo also prob needed the senju dna to maintain his composure with all the sharingan he bearXD

 

[Chief Darui]

You dont get harmed in gengutsu. Madara said he placed the DNA in his WOUND which was shown in the middle of his chest so it cant be...although it was good. Somebody saved him...he had an assistant or partner or something which was who Hashi sensed.

 

[deva pein]

You dont get harmed in gengutsu. Madara said he placed the DNA in his WOUND which was shown in the middle of his chest so it cant be...although it was good.

Yeah, that is the only thing i can't figure out.

 

[thegame]

Yes I said since I read it, that he must have used a genjutsu. However, you missed an extremely important point. The panel, where you refer to only Madara's eye is of course a good proof, however, the next panel on next page has the exact same sound:

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Most likely that of a thunder, however, hard to tell. I can't remember Kishi using that kind of sign before, so I am unaware about it, but surely genjutsu, simply no other option. Those speculating in help from another person, that is unlikely. IMO the genjutsu start at the first thunder and ends at the 2nd. Hashi thinks Madara is dead, but the genjutsu made him miss the heart. The wood clone should be enough to stuff up his wound, and his purpose for the genjutsu is there.

 

[deva pein]

Yes I said since I read it, that he must have used a genjutsu. However, you missed an extremely important point. The panel, where you refer to only Madara's eye is of course a good proof, however, the next panel on next page has the exact same sound:

Spoiler

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Most likely that of a thunder, however, hard to tell. I can't remember Kishi using that kind of sign before, so I am unaware about it, but surely genjutsu, simply no other option. Those speculating in help from another person, that is unlikely. IMO the genjutsu start at the first thunder and ends at the 2nd. Hashi thinks Madara is dead, but the genjutsu made him miss the heart. The wood clone should be enough to stuff up his wound, and his purpose for the genjutsu is there.

Good thinking dude! That might be the explenation to why there is a wound in Madara's chest.

 

[Zato]

So there is a lot of predicting going on how Madara survived the fight.
Some people say Madara used a clone but the only clone that we have seen so far that is able to tank so much damage is a mokuton bunshin, and at that time only Hashirama had it.

Other people say that he put some of Hashi's DNA in his wound, but Hashirama made sure that he killed Madara so that is not possible without Madara awaking from the dead or something.

Some people say it was a genjutsu, and those people are probably right. It has been shown multiple times in the manga that the genjutsu of the Uchiha are depicted like this:

Sasuke used a genjutsu just before Danzo and he had their final clash. This genjutsu was to confuse Danzo.

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Itachi used this genjutsu to confuse Killer Bee.

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Madara used this genjutsu to confuse Hashirama.

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This is not the only proof, Hashirama thought that he saw something or someone dissapear, which must have been the real Madara:

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So my guess is that Madara had placed Hashirama under a light genjutsu which is hard to notice, and then switched with a clone or something. After Hashirama left the battlefield Madara came back and got DNA from the mokuton bunshin.

Madara couldn't have been tricked by a mokuton bushin because he said that he was the only one who could see through them.

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Madara did get stabbed through the chest.

 

[Lightning Release]

Rinnegan saved Madara. Tha wound is real, it was really him.

 

[thegame]

Good thinking dude! That might be the explenation to why there is a wound in Madara's chest.

It would not make sense, if Madara perfectly saw through Hashirama's bunshin. Cause if Madara did, he could have used it and won their fight by killing Hashirama. That way he could still obtain Hashi's cells, and he could get revenge on Konoha.

But he wasn't able to do that, so I would believe, he used the genjutsu, so he could beat him, when they were about to clash swords, however, this didn't work out, he still saw through the bunshin in the last moment, in order to adjust his genjutsu enough to avoid a fatal wound.

Even if he needed a wound, he could make it himself with much less risk.

 

[tife]

A genjutsu cast to allow a stab in the chest but ensure the victim misses his vitals? Dude that's DARK!
But interesting....

Just that how did Madara know that adding senju DNA to his system would make him stronger? This was the first Reningan other than the sage of the 6th path.

Is there like a scroll that tells you what to do to become a badass? Am just saying...

 

[thegame]

A genjutsu cast to allow a stab in the chest but ensure the victim misses his vitals? Dude that's DARK!
But interesting....

Just that how did Madara know that adding senju DNA to his system would make him stronger? This was the first Reningan other than the sage of the 6th path.

Is there like a scroll that tells you what to do to become a badass? Am just saying...

In last weeks chapter, Madara argued, that there are 2 ways to interpret the Uchiha shrine. Directly it says, that yin and yang need to be together in order to create peace. In the beginning, he thought that was by allying the Senju.
However, now he believes, he needs Hashirama's DNA, which is basically the other way of understanding it.

 

[Whiteknight]

So my guess is that Madara had placed Hashirama under a light genjutsu which is hard to notice, and then switched with a clone or something. After Hashirama left the battlefield Madara came back and got DNA from the mokuton bunshin.

Madara couldn't have been tricked by a mokuton bushin because he said that he was the only one who could see through them.

Genjutsu can trick a person while the genjutsu is active. But after returning to the village:

1) People would have examined Madara's corpse, or at least handled it enough to perform a burial (in a place where Kabuto could later find the remains). All those people involved in mourning and the funeral would have seen the body of Madara for themselves (it's not likely that hashirama just left the body there, and nobody ever saw it again)
2) When he got back the village, he would have received medical care, and people there would have noticed that Hashirama's chakra was being disrupted by genjutsu (unless Madara had Kotoamatsukami, which has never been suggested)

So the big problem with this theory is that there was a BODY left over after the fight for people to see. People would have confirmed that it was Madara. Zetsu hadn't been created yet, so there's nobody who could do such a perfect transformation (and most Zetsu clones which use the transformation jutsu turn back to their normal appearance when they die, except the one who transformed into Kisame).

Madara likewise didn't have the ability to make a wood clone or anything like that. A shadow clone maybe (but those disappear after they are killed, and we DID HAVE A BODY).

One thing I did notice was that Madara's sharingan was deactivated for the final attack. This seems weird, considering the sharingan would have been an extremely important tool for hand-to-hand attacks. Why would he turn it off at the crucial final attack?

I have three ideas:

1) We know Madara met with Mu at some point. If Madara learned the body split technique, he could have split himself (not a clone, and would leave a physical body). This would also explain why older Madara was so frail and weak (because he had divided his strength in half)

2) We know Madara would have known Izanagi. Later, old Madara had only one sharingan eye after giving his rinnegan to Nagato. If Madara stole two eyes at some point and used one for Izanagi, he could have kept his "real" eyes and had one left over later to use after giving his Rinnegan to Nagato. Of course, we saw in the Danzo fight that the altered reality of Izanagi eventually fades away when the technique is used. But then again, Madara might have been better at the technique than Danzo was because Madara was a real Uchiha (but didn't have any Hashirama DNA to super-power it).

3) He could have died and been revived later. Without the Rinnegan (which he hadn't unlocked yet and nobody else had) he could have used Edo Tensei or had one of his helpers use a sacrifice technique like Chiyo used on Gaara.

These are the only things I can think of that make sense.

 

[tife]

I am beginning to think Mandara did not know he needed Senju DNA. If it was just Senju DNA he wanted he would have just gone after Tobirama an easier target than Hashi. I think Mandara found out accidentally that Senju DNA improves his abilities. Except we all agree Tobirama is stronger.

 

[marijuanna]

maybe for the genjutsu to surely work on hashirama it had to be simple, so madara could only make him think he hit a vital point when hw actually have not

 

[thegame]

Genjutsu can trick a person while the genjutsu is active. But after returning to the village:

1) People would have examined Madara's corpse, or at least handled it enough to perform a burial (in a place where Kabuto could later find the remains). All those people involved in mourning and the funeral would have seen the body of Madara for themselves (it's not likely that hashirama just left the body there, and nobody ever saw it again)

We do not know, what happened to Madara's corpse afterwards. Hashirama was clearly exhausted. He still had to hold down Kurama, so that Mito could seal it. It's only likely that Kurama was his next thought before burying his friend. As he said, they chose different paths.

Besides, Madara was an enemy of Konoha, but a friend of Hashirama. If he would do anything respectful for him, it would be something like tossing him down the river, which they used to meet at (or something like that). He would not bring him back to the village.

2) When he got back the village, he would have received medical care, and people there would have noticed that Hashirama's chakra was being disrupted by genjutsu (unless Madara had Kotoamatsukami, which has never been suggested)

No as I said, he would not bring Madara back to the village. Also I already showed another panel in this thread, which supports it. There is a specific sound, which is heard twice. Also Madara can end such genjutsu, when he wants. The sound I referred to indicates the start and end of his genjutsu. The noise from thunder could be enough to create a disturbance in a persons chakra flow (concentration), so even a person as skilled as Hashirama would not notice.

So the big problem with this theory is that there was a BODY left over after the fight for people to see. People would have confirmed that it was Madara. Zetsu hadn't been created yet, so there's nobody who could do such a perfect transformation (and most Zetsu clones which use the transformation jutsu turn back to their normal appearance when they die, except the one who transformed into Kisame).

1) We know Madara met with Mu at some point. If Madara learned the body split technique, he could have split himself (not a clone, and would leave a physical body). This would also explain why older Madara was so frail and weak (because he had divided his strength in half)

Not impossible, although the genjutsu theory still holds. However, little is known about Mu, but judging from what we do know, he seems like a loner, yet highly caring about his village. I doubt he would have anything to do with Madara, unless Madara actually saw Mu use his body split technique and copied it. However, what type of tech is it? Does it use any element, etc? Too little is known about it, and given nobody else ever used it, it's likely to be his alone (just guesses).

2) We know Madara would have known Izanagi. Later, old Madara had only one sharingan eye after giving his rinnegan to Nagato. If Madara stole two eyes at some point and used one for Izanagi, he could have kept his "real" eyes and had one left over later to use after giving his Rinnegan to Nagato. Of course, we saw in the Danzo fight that the altered reality of Izanagi eventually fades away when the technique is used. But then again, Madara might have been better at the technique than Danzo was because Madara was a real Uchiha (but didn't have any Hashirama DNA to super-power it).

This is interesting, cause most people immediately deny izanagi as a possibility, but that is not the case. In their last fight, not once did Kishi show us both of Madara's eyes (with EMS). So it's not impossible, he had prepared another sharingan than EMS. It would also explain, why he only had 1, after giving his eyes to Nagato. It's impossible that he lost an EMS on Izanagi, since Nagato had 2.
However, the problem about this, is that as I understand Izanagi, it does not last very long before the person re-appears. So all your initial arguments bash this one, unless you use my arguments it could work. Although compared to Danzo it lasts very shortly, whereas Obito could keep it going for 5 minutes (or more).
Last I do not understand, how he could then use Susanoo, which is my main reason for bashing this theory.

3) He could have died and been revived later. Without the Rinnegan (which he hadn't unlocked yet and nobody else had) he could have used Edo Tensei or had one of his helpers use a sacrifice technique like Chiyo used on Gaara.

These are the only things I can think of that make sense.

Chiyo invented that technique as I remember, however, it's unlikely for Kishi to pull something new up from his hat. In fact it would just make it disappointing for the story, if he couldn't think of anything better. And usually he can

 

[King-Panda]

Yeah that's what I thought, but the king hashirama was illuded by genjutsu? :/ maybe, but not cool

 

[SagemodejubihostSasuke]

or madara survive because of plot, his strong will let him live.

 

[NarutoKage2]

I think it wasnt genjutsu of any kind. madara either:
-had already implanted the dna secretly and played dead
- was in a coma of some sort where he appeared dead. after hashirama left, he awoke and crawled to the bunshin and implanted the dna in his wound.

 

[cmilius]

You the creator of the thread doesn't get it even after reading the manga. Madara was the real one who got stab in the back due to him unable to use sharingan because of chakra he didn't have left.
Madara black zetsu was made from madara however, white zetsu was made from hashirama dna.
White zetsu is a special clone meaning even if you hit it with brute force, it will still be there whereas the black zetsu doesn't have that ability without connected to white zetsu. Madara didn't escape but was stabbed and it wasn't a genjutsu that hashirama was in when he stabbed madara and if it was a clone then the clone would have puff away. only the white zetsu who is a special clone that doesn't puff away. Hashirama is a genjutsu master, taijutsu and ninjutsu as well and the only explanation that can explan how madara survive is after hashi left, someone save him or he didn't die due to his will. Nothing more or less.