The Problem with a Villain being TNJ'd

[Snape Uchiha]

I personally am very much against a villain turning good after a speech from the good guy. There are some times where it actually can make sense, but I'll get to that later. Right now, I first need to explain why it is a problem.

Some hypothetical reasons why TNJ might be bad​

Spoiler

Some people might say it is childish and immature. While villains turning good is something that occurs in more childish stories, this is not such a strong reason. Logically a political solution should be considered more "mature" and simply killing your enemies would be immature.

Some people want to see intense action scenes and think that a villain should be killed in an epic battle. However this is simply a matter of preference. If you want to read a manga where the villains are just killed, that there are plenty of other manga you could be reading. Not everything has to be settled with a fight scene.

A villain being TNJ'd sometimes ca ruin all the character(s) have accomplished in order to finally defeat the villain. This problem is usually resolved since a villain is rarely TNJ'd until he is defeated in battle, and the implication is that the villain needed to be defeated in order to be TNJ'ed

The real problem with a villain being TNJ'd into turning good is that it ruins the villains character and as a result, hurts the story as a whole. Therefore it can be said that if it does not ruin the villains character, it might not be so bad.

Situations where TNJ was not bad (this is of course debatable)
-Zabuza: Zabuza never "turned good". He didn't stop being vicious and murderous. Rather, he just came to realize how much he cared for Haku.
-Gaara: Gaara was never "evil", not really. He was traumatized and basically insane. He was basically just taking out his hatred and pain on other people. Naruto managed to identify with him and show him that friendship is how to get rid of the pain that Gaara was feeling.
-Sasuke: Sasuke was also not really "evil". He was just taking out his hatred. Furthermore, his "TNJ" was gradual and therefore a part of his character development, and so does not ruin his character. Furthermore he most probably didn't even completely "turn good" yet.

Situations where a villain turning good is bad:
-Nagato: This was completely ridiculous. Nagato firmly believed that what he was doing was right and was steeped in is philosophy. All Naruto did was tell Nagato to believe him him and for no logical reason, Nagato abandoned his former ideology and decided to turn good.
-Orochimaru: I don't need to explain this....
-Obito: Basically the same reason as Nagato. Obito had developed an ideology of despair, and firmly believed that IT is the only way to save the world. He views Naruto as Naive. He is not insane like Gaara was because he has a very specific and complex ideoloy; he is not just taking out his anger. His change was not based on logical character development like Sasuke. There is no reason based on what I've seen for Obito to turn good. He is too far down his path to suddenly switch sides.

 

[itachi4real]

But his intentions were good...he wanted to stop this hatred cycle and also who can withstand narutos tnj besides madara and maybe sasuke

 

[Kurome]

I fully agree U_U

 

[Snape Uchiha]

But his intentions were good...he wanted to stop this hatred cycle and also who can withstand narutos tnj besides madara and maybe sasuke

His intentions were good but his ideology is completely different from that of Naruto's and there is no reason for Obito to change his ideology.

 

[itachi4real]

His intentions were good but his ideology is completely different from that of Naruto's and there is no reason for Obito to change his ideology.

But obito knew himself that what hes doing is wrong but thought it was only way to create peace thats why i think hes getting tnj

 

[Klad]

I may agree that Nagato's TNJ was meh , but this time , Kishi defenitely is right on Obito's TNJ .

Why ?

It's because Naruto reminds Obito himself when he was young . Always energic , dreaming being a Hokage , had a crush on the girl on the team , etc. I dunno why , but I'm defenitely liking Naruto's TNJ this time . Though , I would like more if Obito stayed in his own side . (I'm saying in his own side because he is neither evil or good, he has his own side )

 

[rollin]

naruto made nagato remember his ideals he had before obito interfered with him
and naruto is making obito realize that friends can help "fill that hole in your heart"instead of creating fake people and taking shortcuts to find peace

naruto didn't even talknojutsu gaara either,he did it through his actions

 

[-Sky-]

Orochimaru was not TNJ'ed, and judging by his recent dialogue with the third, I would say he's far from "good."

As for obito and Nagato, its more of the fact that they could relate to Naruto and his actions that they turned good, not that they turned good because of what he said..

For example, look at characters like Palpatine or Voldemort. These characters were never shown to be 'good.' They were evil and dirty from their introduction. A real villain is a villain who's backstory is ambiguous, like those characters. Also the Joker is a prime example. But someone like Zabuza never had a sob story, he was a killer from the start. That's why he died the way he lived, only he was doing it for someone else for a change. What I'm trying to say is that a villains backstory makes a huge difference.

The only time I would dislike a villain changing their ideology would be when they never had that ideology to begin with. I understand Nagato and Obito, because they were like Naruto. However, I do wish this story included a villain who's evil was beyond human. I know the point of Naruto is to express that every human has good in them, but that isn't always the case.

The problem is that Kishi has to give every villain a sob story and background resembling the main character.

 

[Saikyokami]

Oro didn't really get tnj'd tho.. He was just following sasuke cause he's a pedophile.

 

[Dantee]

The reason and Nagato/Obito got tnj'd is because of not only his words but their relation to Naruto. Naruto is Jirayas student and carries his will that's why Nagato got impacted effectively. Obito is getting tnj'd because it's like looking into a mirror of all the things he use to stand for. I understand it however it just seems way to convenient/cliche for my liking.

 

[Sominus]

I personally am very much against a villain turning good after a speech from the good guy. There are some times where it actually can make sense, but I'll get to that later. Right now, I first need to explain why it is a problem.

Some hypothetical reasons why TNJ might be bad​

Spoiler

Some people might say it is childish and immature. While villains turning good is something that occurs in more childish stories, this is not such a strong reason. Logically a political solution should be considered more "mature" and simply killing your enemies would be immature.

Some people want to see intense action scenes and think that a villain should be killed in an epic battle. However this is simply a matter of preference. If you want to read a manga where the villains are just killed, that there are plenty of other manga you could be reading. Not everything has to be settled with a fight scene.

A villain being TNJ'd sometimes ca ruin all the character(s) have accomplished in order to finally defeat the villain. This problem is usually resolved since a villain is rarely TNJ'd until he is defeated in battle, and the implication is that the villain needed to be defeated in order to be TNJ'ed

The real problem with a villain being TNJ'd into turning good is that it ruins the villains character and as a result, hurts the story as a whole. Therefore it can be said that if it does not ruin the villains character, it might not be so bad.

Situations where TNJ was not bad (this is of course debatable)
-Zabuza: Zabuza never "turned good". He didn't stop being vicious and murderous. Rather, he just came to realize how much he cared for Haku.
-Gaara: Gaara was never "evil", not really. He was traumatized and basically insane. He was basically just taking out his hatred and pain on other people. Naruto managed to identify with him and show him that friendship is how to get rid of the pain that Gaara was feeling.
-Sasuke: Sasuke was also not really "evil". He was just taking out his hatred. Furthermore, his "TNJ" was gradual and therefore a part of his character development, and so does not ruin his character. Furthermore he most probably didn't even completely "turn good" yet.

Situations where a villain turning good is bad:
-Nagato: This was completely ridiculous. Nagato firmly believed that what he was doing was right and was steeped in is philosophy. All Naruto did was tell Nagato to believe him him and for no logical reason, Nagato abandoned his former ideology and decided to turn good.
-Orochimaru: I don't need to explain this....
-Obito: Basically the same reason as Nagato. Obito had developed an ideology of despair, and firmly believed that IT is the only way to save the world. He views Naruto as Naive. He is not insane like Gaara was because he has a very specific and complex ideoloy; he is not just taking out his anger. His change was not based on logical character development like Sasuke. There is no reason based on what I've seen for Obito to turn good. He is too far down his path to suddenly switch sides.

I partially agree with you. Although imho Naruto never TNJ'ed Sasuke really. He failed doing so, when he said he would battle him to the death and die with him, surely Narutos talk had some influence on Sasuke but Itachi's part was way more substantial.

Actually I did like the Pein TNJ because it seemed well thought-out to me.

What I really can't stand about Obito beeing TNJ'ed is that Kishi'ss jokes get old... I can understand Obito regaining old emotions etc. but really... how often will this rewind? Except for Orochimaru there is not one important villain that wasn't TNJ'ed by Naruto.


Edit: Also Obito is not totally beeing TNJ'ed and I doubt that he will totally change his ideology. He will fail completing his plan because he lacks power (of friends and Sasuke and Naruto delivered a hard blow to him) and isn't a 100% sure about his actions anymore, that's about it.

 

[Xāvî1]

I personally am very much against a villain turning good after a speech from the good guy. There are some times where it actually can make sense, but I'll get to that later. Right now, I first need to explain why it is a problem.

Some hypothetical reasons why TNJ might be bad​

Spoiler

Some people might say it is childish and immature. While villains turning good is something that occurs in more childish stories, this is not such a strong reason. Logically a political solution should be considered more "mature" and simply killing your enemies would be immature.

Some people want to see intense action scenes and think that a villain should be killed in an epic battle. However this is simply a matter of preference. If you want to read a manga where the villains are just killed, that there are plenty of other manga you could be reading. Not everything has to be settled with a fight scene.

A villain being TNJ'd sometimes ca ruin all the character(s) have accomplished in order to finally defeat the villain. This problem is usually resolved since a villain is rarely TNJ'd until he is defeated in battle, and the implication is that the villain needed to be defeated in order to be TNJ'ed

The real problem with a villain being TNJ'd into turning good is that it ruins the villains character and as a result, hurts the story as a whole. Therefore it can be said that if it does not ruin the villains character, it might not be so bad.

Situations where TNJ was not bad (this is of course debatable)
-Zabuza: Zabuza never "turned good". He didn't stop being vicious and murderous. Rather, he just came to realize how much he cared for Haku.
-Gaara: Gaara was never "evil", not really. He was traumatized and basically insane. He was basically just taking out his hatred and pain on other people. Naruto managed to identify with him and show him that friendship is how to get rid of the pain that Gaara was feeling.
-Sasuke: Sasuke was also not really "evil". He was just taking out his hatred. Furthermore, his "TNJ" was gradual and therefore a part of his character development, and so does not ruin his character. Furthermore he most probably didn't even completely "turn good" yet.

Situations where a villain turning good is bad:
-Nagato: This was completely ridiculous. Nagato firmly believed that what he was doing was right and was steeped in is philosophy. All Naruto did was tell Nagato to believe him him and for no logical reason, Nagato abandoned his former ideology and decided to turn good.
-Orochimaru: I don't need to explain this....
-Obito: Basically the same reason as Nagato. Obito had developed an ideology of despair, and firmly believed that IT is the only way to save the world. He views Naruto as Naive. He is not insane like Gaara was because he has a very specific and complex ideoloy; he is not just taking out his anger. His change was not based on logical character development like Sasuke. There is no reason based on what I've seen for Obito to turn good. He is too far down his path to suddenly switch sides.

That is narutos version of izanami noway to escape though

 

[Sir Blades]

The only thing that bothers me about kishi, is that none of his villains are purely/truly evil. They are just good guys turned bad or some confused fodder turned demigod.

 

[Tartarus]

I still don't think Orochimaru turned "good", he still has plans to quake the shinbi world and continue his experiments. Now he's just using Sasuke as his medium for causing a storm. I agree to a good extent. I'd like to compliment that you didn't just make a whiny complain thread and actually intelligently explained your criticism, so thank you for that.
The main problem for TnJ is that with Obito, he's already done so many bad things in the name of his cause and that he's managed to coax so many to his side like Kisame and Nagato. At the same time, he's so much like Naruto, I can see how he would wind up seeing how he could associate with him.
The problem arises here: How is Naruto to deal with an anti-villain without breaking his pledge to follow Jiraiya's path of peace?

 

[Raekwon26]

Kishis fault really.

Real life issues and problems combined with Fairy Tail garbage = BS.

 

[Urda]

Their is no such thing as villain or bad. Only things we perceive as good or bad because we were told or moral or ethic values. Why one thinks murder is good, the other can think murder is bad. Who knows weather murder is good or bad?

Anyway, at this point, I do not think it matters if Naruto can talk his way out of the situation.

 

[xcoyote]

Its not that bad imo but i guess its getting repetitive and boring at some point.

 

[Rayder]

The thing is Kishi makes TNJ seem so easy but it shouldn't be. The villains are turning their whole life around and it shouldn't take a few emotional words from a teenager for them to do so. It should be like Sasuke's TNJ where it takes time and many other factors for him to even consider coming back. To put it in real-life perspective its like being a follower of one religion your entire life and then being told to convert to another by some teenager. Sounds impossible, right.

 

[Kishi Uzumaki]

Nagato's change of heart can be justified as he was jiraiya's student and book he wrote about taking nagato as inspiration and naruto following the path he abandoned but obito's case is different . he is strong willed as naruto
he won't give up his ideals easily besides he is an uhiha . uhiha's hatred is pretty hard to deal with naruto is facing
a one who will be hard to be tnjed . if he did that it will be naruto's greatest achievement so far but personally think madara will be the one finishing obito off . he will only realize his faults in his death .

 

[Naijakid]

I love the TNJ.....<3