His striking speed here was so fast Obito could not even register it and activate Kamui.
You must be registered for see images
Then he does the same thing 2 seconds after.
Yet in the War Arc he's slow, for some reason. Why couldn't he do literally the same thing, teleport and instantly blow them up? Because plot/bad, inconsistent writing. To make things worse, he was also using Sage Mode and KCM which should make him even faster.
A KCM Naruto went from average speed to being faster than V2 Ay.
A KCM Minato with Sage Mode and FTG was somehow slower than he was in his base form.
n not to forget jin madara was trolled by same phasing abilty when he tried to take rinnegan...! and was relaying on his one ability that kept obito from going to other dimension i.e TSB..! and minato took away the same TSB's with ftg...!
and about age argument, obito's phasing ability was said to be automatic...! his eye's reactions couldn't have improved now could they? obito has shown feats to phase through blind spot attacks, surprise attacks etc, where reactions don't matter and i don't remember obito having sensing ability...! even that chapter was named something as 4th hokage wins the battle of speed..! so it's obvious that minato exceeded obito phasing ability...! yet madara was trolled..!
and about Ay having v2 back then or not has been answered by Ay himself when he told naruto that you are the 2nd one to dodge my top speed..! who was first? Gai?
Because it wasn't the goal of the opening post lol. It's an open discussion thread. I just posted the definition of the different categories of speed in the opening posts as a reminder and depending on the replies, i'd make my arguments, assuming guys have the guts to put up arguments, that's it
In movement speed? Shunshin speed? Reaction speed? Striking speed? All of this? Explain yourself. It's all what i want here. If you manage to convince myself, i'd gladly accept the majority was right. Until then, i'd be your Galileo
Either way, here is my input
1- Madara underestimated 7gated Gai, hence he basically told him he can't accomplish shit unless he uses the final gate. He had a relative low expectation on Gai
2- He underestimated him before being surprised by 7gated Gai's movement and striking speed for a second(the steam hiding his vision not helping either), surpassing his initial expectation and forcing him to use a back stepping move as a defensive maneuver
3- Back stepping Madara is obviously far from his greatest movement speed, so a 7gated Gai who at that moment was continuously attacking a back stepping Madara doesn't prove much concerning his dashing speed.
In the end, that event isn't that different from the one between Kakashi and early part1 Sasuke where Kakashi lowered his initial expectation of Sasuke to such an extent that Sasuke was able to push him back for a moment, but i doubt anyone is stupid enough to think early part1 Sasuke someone fodderized later on by this same Kakashi or worse by a 10% of Zabuza's clone could even contend with Kakashi in overall close quarter combat or speed
4- Also note that Hirudora was noted to be 7gated Gai's fastest punch, yet Madara was capable to cut it clean mid attack and get away before Gai could do anything
5- Madara also showed the ability to react to 8gated Gai's movement speed and even surpass his awareness for a second, even following night Gai, both versions obviously much faster than 7gated Gai in movement speed
These are basically one of the reasons i don't follow the majority, one of the reasons i'm not convinced at all by their logic. All this makes me think it doesn't make sense at all to use that event against Madara as a real feat comparatively to others. Your move
4- Also note that Hirudora was noted to be 7gated Gai's fastest punch, yet Madara was capable to cut it clean mid attack and get away before Gai could do anything
Gai already released AT so I'm not entirely sure what you're trying to say. Not to mention this contradicts you since you're somewhat implying Madara had no intent to attack Gai but somehow decided to strike Gai's AT.
You didn't also consider the fact that Gai forced him to block twice with ordinary punches alone so it won't make sense that a faster one. You also ignored the fact that Gai had to settle down, do the hand seal and release the technique which gave Madara an edge to react there
You must be registered for see links
(Bottom panel (Take this) and Madara is surprised before it comes which further speaks about Gai's movements). Still AT was fast enough to surprise him and make him block.
Makes no sense that Madara would be blocking twice against ordinary punches but yet be striking against a faster one. Gai can easily run and punch him with added movement but there's a difference when you have to stay out to release your attack. The execution is far slower.
Till this date the point you've dropped the most that it's pretty good is regarding what happened here
You must be registered for see links
Here are the things I'll speak of regarding that.
You must be registered for see images
That's not different from what was happening in the 7th Gate burst of Aura
Not to mention Aura=/=Chakra this "Madara couldn't see" or "He was obstructed" doesn't really prevent
The mere fact that he could see Gai running at him with NM debunks your claim considering he was in a similar position with his hands covering his front to brace himself from what was coming.
You must be registered for see images
That's a much similar situation to Madara blocking himself from the 7th Gate so why is it he can react with this burst of chakra but somehow cannot react in the 7th Gates Case? Just another way to downplay feats if you ask me.
The there's this claim about Madara reacting to NM which automatically means the 7th Gate speed is nothing even though it's a nice feat with an added praise "Inhumane Movements".
This point about Madara attacking NM Gai while moving is clearly misunderstood...He attacked Gai when Gai tried to attack with NM(Strike with the kick). That was due to the fact that Gai's NM strike wasn't fast enough which means Madara beat him at that point when it came to attacking first..Not Gai's movement speed while in NM. You definitely got that wrong. I can easily prove you wrong since Madara opted to block rather than smack Gai in a much slower speed despite Gai being within strike range:
You must be registered for see images
Now unless you think that Gai can move faster than Yagai, then there's no point...Clearly it has to do with striking speed since Madara was completely surprised and couldn't strike like he did to Yagai despite this Gai being in striking range. NM wasn't executed fast enough like the punch of this EE which pushes Madara to the ground completely. It's completely understandable since Yagai is a drop kick anyways unlike a punch..EE's strike speed is faster which is why Gai wasn't touched or rather Madara couldn't strike back.
He thought within his head which is merely a matter of seconds so your point about him estimating Gai was fast doesn't hold...Ay saw Minato evade his fastest punch, thought to himself but Minato countered shortly after leaving him in the same exact position...What does this mean?
Then there's the fact that Minato had Gaara block Madara's view which didn't stop Madara from smacking him.
Gai already released AT so I'm not entirely sure what you're trying to say. Not to mention this contradicts you since you're somewhat implying Madara had no intent to attack Gai but somehow decided to strike Gai's AT.
The point exactly. A already released AT is Gai's fastest punch. I don't think Gai counts the preparation time(crossing the fingers) in the attacking speed, but more the travelling speed of the AT as his fastest punch attack. Yet despite being already released an inch away from Madara, Madara still had the reaction and striking speed to cut it cleanly in the middle before expansion and get away before 7gated Gai could do anything. It means Madara's reaction and striking speed overcame 7gated Gai's fastest punch attack and thus proving that his reaction and striking speed is above 7gated Gai's
And no, i never said Madara had no intention of attacking Gai back. I said 7gated Gai's movement and striking speed exceeded the initial expectation Madara had over him and forced him into a defensive maneuver at that moment
You didn't also consider the fact that Gai forced him to block twice with ordinary punches alone so it won't make sense that a faster one.
I did consider it by talking about his defensive maneuver. The defensive maneuver included both his back stepping move and his blocking move, just like Kakashi and early part1 Sasuke that i gave as a counter-example
You also ignored the fact that Gai had to settle down, do the hand seal and release the technique which gave Madara an edge to react there
You must be registered for see links
(Bottom panel (Take this) and Madara is surprised before it comes which further speaks about Gai's movements). Still AT was fast enough to surprise him and make him block.
No, i didn't forget this. More like i only explained what mattered. Like i've said above,
Terry Bogard said:
A already released AT is Gai's fastest punch. I don't think Gai counts the preparation time(crossing the fingers) in the attacking speed, but more the travelling speed of the AT as his fastest punch attack. Yet despite being already released an inch away from Madara, Madara still had the reaction and striking speed to cut it cleanly in the middle before expansion and get away before 7gated Gai could do anything. It means Madara's reaction and striking speed overcame 7gated Gai's fastest punch attack and thus proving that his reaction and striking speed is above 7gated Gai's
That's from Kakashi's view(who was behind Gai). From Madara's view, there is nothing blocking his eyesight:
You must be registered for see links
He sees him clearly
That's a much similar situation to Madara blocking himself from the 7th Gate so why is it he can react with this burst of chakra but somehow cannot react in the 7th Gates Case? Just another way to downplay feats if you ask me.
Because like i've said above the steam is only obscuring Kakashi's vision(who was behind). Madara is actually seeing night Gai perfectly fine during that moment because the steam is only expanding backwise. Let's get straight to the point here. Do you think 7gated Gai is faster than night Gai? Because it's the only conclusion one can take to explain how Madara can follow night Gai's movements yet can't with 7gated Gai in your opinion
The there's this claim about Madara reacting to NM which automatically means the 7th Gate speed is nothing even though it's a nice feat with an added praise "Inhumane Movements".
There is a difference between movement speed and dashing speed. The movement speed represents
Terry Bogard said:
Movement speed is a statistic that represents the rate at which someone travels across a map. One movement speed point translates to one distance unit traveled per second
In gates, Gai's movement speed exceeds the normal. However, it doesn't prove much comparatively to a blitzing/dashing speed that Naruto characters usually use through their shunshin to cross short-mid-long range distances, and i think it's the main reason why we can't understand each other
He thought within his head which is merely a matter of seconds so your point about him estimating Gai was fast doesn't hold...Ay saw Minato evade his fastest punch, thought to himself but Minato countered shortly after leaving him in the same exact position...What does this mean?
You're not understanding me at all here. Let's ignore the striking speed point for a moment. This is your argument
1- You're basically saying that 7gated Gai was fast enough to surpass Madara's awareness, using the exclammation mark as your proof:
You must be registered for see links
Problem however is that during the night Gai, Gai isn't exceeding Madara's awareness at all. It's not a matter of physical movement or reaction speed here, but mental reaction. In the A-Minato example you gave, it just prove that Ay had the mental reaction to follow Minato, but it's his physical reaction that couldn't keep up. There is no physical reaction without mental reaction however, so if Madara can't even mentally follow something, he can't react to it.
However, unlike against 7gated Gai, Madara is seeing Gai's movements perfectly fine without exclammation mark at all, analyzing his movement speed perfectly by rating it to be fast and even noticing it was distorting space. And the distance here was similar to the one between 7gated Gai and Madara originally if not even smaller:
You must be registered for see links
That means that the speed of night Gai wasn't exceeding his mental reaction despite the fact that the speed should normally be faster than that of 7gated Gai(distorting space) and the distance even smaller and thus proving that he shouldn't have been unable to perceive 7gated Gai's speed for a moment unless something distracted him
^^Like I said, I'm not going to say much because in the end, it would always be pointless. Those who can see my last point would automatically know what the deal was.
- If Kakashi and Lee them who were far away could brace themselves from he burst of chakra during that period, why won't Madara who's closer not do the same? Doesn't make any sense and it definitely proves you wrong or Madara won't be bracing himself with his rod in front when he wasn't doing so in the first place
You must be registered for see links
- You're saying Madara sees him clearly because he said "This chakra" but you ignore when Gai opened the 7th Madara said "Blue steam" which means he could see if he could differentiate the steam from the red.
- You're talking about Mental reaction which is 100% irrelevant when you talk about a drawing like this. You know why? Because you yourself can't prove that a character cannot mentally react to some Jutsus. You don't have proof Gai cannot mentally react to Amaterasu but why exactly do you conclude he can't? Because he has not shown physical speed feats that he can. If we were to go by Mental reaction which is obviously a factor in real life scenarios, you won't be able to prove me wrong since the Manga doesn't drop mental feats but physical feats of each character.
E.g, When Sasuke attained Lee's speed for example.
Lee explains it best here:
You must be registered for see links
"Back then I said even if you can see but your body can't move, it's useless...but now you have the same body speed as I do"
Implying that when Sasuke gained Lee's speed, things were different in terms of reactions. Your logic is too deep and it would only end up bringing in things like 8G Gai= Base Gai in reactions even though it makes no sense. Going by this logic, if Base Gai cannot dodge Amaterasu then 8G Gai cannot since he can't process it faster but you have no proof or rather can't measure their mental ability unlike their physical one.
Gai was fast enough to surprise Madara which is a feat. Madara was already used to his speed so there's no need to be surprised when he was already several times. Madara was right in front of Gai watching all through due to the prep. Your overall point falls when Gai surprised Madara the first time he attacked with EE(Worse since there was no burst of Aura or anything to use as support)...Further proof of NM execution being the case.
That wasn't the only involving movements..Several times Gai moved.
You must be registered for see images
Look at those lines indicating movements even though Gai isn't attacking? Those movements? Who's he attacking at that point? Gaara referred to his overall movement as inhumane.
The initial run was just to show he was indeed fast with nothing to disprove that...There were more movements made asides that. It's a feat especially when Minato who had a sand covering Madara's view from seeing him teleport got smacked right away..Yet you have no reason why Gai's case was different. Feat is Feat..Saying NM this or that isn't going to downplay anything.
Nobody said Madara couldn't follow Gai's movement in the 7th when he did followed the 8th...We're only saying Gai's movement in the 7th was fast enough to cope with that and surprised him despite having precognition as an edge. If Gai could also move like I showed within those points, and Madara still couldn't smack him, it's clear everything boils down to NM's execution which is not as fast as the others except for the movement speed...I'm not going to argue though. My point is 100% clear.. I'm not even sure if you're seriously trying to argue the AT point I brought up and compare the execution to ordinary punches to prove your point. Once again, Madara was forced to block against ordinary punches twice, using AT which involved Gai settling and having to use the seal before the punch actually comes out is ridiculous. The punch itself is fast but bringing in the prep puts the overall attack speed lower than ordinary kicks and punches like Gai showed.
Those characters cannot replicate what Gai did in the 7th Gate because it's a feat...It's a massive feat which till date I don't get why it's still being argued. Movements not being human was praised by a Kage level opponent? Jin was surprised 2 times up close? Madara was already used to Gai's movement so him not being surprised in NM wasn't a big deal when like I said he was surprised against Gai's first ever distant speed in the 8th. Him being surprised to the 7th that and not Minato teleporting out of nowhere to his face shows it's indeed a fast speed. He saw Gai counter his TSB and saw him opening the 7th so he must have been well aware that he was fast. Yet we chuck it up to "He couldn't see" "This" "That"...Shit is getting ridiculous and it's not even surprising anymore.
No one said 7G was as fast as Madara, we said him keeping up/showcasing his movement speed and the others was a feat against a high opponent of such, Juubi level. He's definitely faster that the others that were hyped but couldn't back it up against such opponents(Ay required Onoki to up his speed against a far weaker Madara...Minato's case was seen again Juubito/Juubidara). That alone shows Gai feat is top notch.
