The most underrated panel in Naruto.

Demon

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Isn't that selfishness?
I mean....
yes?
But....I dunno, give me a week and I will come up with a good counter.
Sometimes being selfish is a good thing.

Morally speaking, we humans are usually only moral from a prism.

If we give up that prism morality doesn't do any good.

If we would truly be unselfish then we would give up everything we own and ignore all of our own ambition as well.

And that would be inhumane, and not lead anywhere.

In fact, it would probably corrupt us turn us into monsters, and let evil take over.

But if people are selfish then other people learn to deal with the fact that life doesn't always give them what they want and people start to struggle to achieve greatness and make progress.
And through that prism there is still room for morality.


There is nothing wrong with Itachi preserving his honor, his social appearance, instead of living as a known criminal he could let the evil unfold but be known as an honorable decent civilian.

That would not put Sasuke into shame or confusion and it wouldn't hurt anyone that he preserves his own social acceptance.

The fact that he became known as a criminal but under the guise of being good only causes confusion and might inspire people to themselves become criminals because the social appearance starts to dimish in value.

This also meant he was cut off from any conversation and had to resort to threats to make his point clear ala his torture of Sasuke and his message to Danzo.


But if he had remained his honor he would still be someone that people could talk to and have a conversation with that could lead somewhere.

This it would be selfish but it would be beneficial for others and not just himself also.
 

Infant

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Sometimes being selfish is a good thing.

Morally speaking, we humans are usually only moral from a prism.

If we give up that prism morality doesn't do any good.

If we would truly be unselfish then we would give up everything we own and ignore all of our own ambition as well.

And that would be inhumane, and not lead anywhere.

In fact, it would probably corrupt us turn us into monsters, and let evil take over.

But if people are selfish then other people learn to deal with the fact that life doesn't always give them what they want and people start to struggle to achieve greatness and make progress.
And through that prism there is still room for morality.


There is nothing wrong with Itachi preserving his honor, his social appearance, instead of living as a known criminal he could let the evil unfold but be known as an honorable decent civilian.

That would not put Sasuke into shame or confusion and it wouldn't hurt anyone that he preserves his own social acceptance.

The fact that he became known as a criminal but under the guise of being good only causes confusion and might inspire people to themselves become criminals because the social appearance starts to dimish in value.

This also meant he was cut off from any conversation and had to resort to threats to make his point clear ala his torture of Sasuke and his message to Danzo.


But if he had remained his honor he would still be someone that people could talk to and have a conversation with that could lead somewhere.

This it would be selfish but it would be beneficial for others and not just himself also.
So you mean that one cannot carry others without first strengthening themselves?

In the case of Itachi (or FOR Itachi?), does the path you explained not involve discounting his feelings duty towards the village, which in turn acts against himself, which in turn goes against the idea of a fully selfish decision?
 

Demon

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So you mean that one cannot carry others without first strengthening themselves?

In the case of Itachi (or FOR Itachi?), does the path you explained not involve discounting his feelings duty towards the village, which in turn acts against himself, which in turn goes against the idea of a fully selfish decision?
hmm.
He did care about the village, but also if he realized it would be better to let the village potentially burn for the sake of morality.
Then this would be in the long term a better decision for himself.

So it would still be a selfish decision cus he could realize it would benefit him more. It wouldn't be what he directly wanted but it would be what was best for him.
 

Infant

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hmm.
He did care about the village, but also if he realized it would be better to let the village potentially burn for the sake of morality.
Then this would be in the long term a better decision for himself.

So it would still be a selfish decision cus he could realize it would benefit him more. It wouldn't be what he directly wanted but it would be what was best for him.
"for the sake of morality" implies against his own wishes.

The reasoning of your second paragraph implies that doing the right thing, seeking greater good is always selfish, then. Or do you mean to say that it simply carries elements of self-benefit?
 

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"for the sake of morality" implies against his own wishes.

The reasoning of your second paragraph implies that doing the right thing, seeking greater good is always selfish, then. Or do you mean to say that it simply carries elements of self-benefit?
Not always but in this particular case what he thinks is best - wiping out the clan, is not the best move. And its not the best move for him.
 

Demon

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Heard.

Overall, you think morality and selfishness are not opposites?
hmmm...................



No.

They could be, but practically speaking, being a good person might benefit you individually too. For example, people might like you which boosts your self-confidence.
In the long term, if people always sacrifice their self-interests for helping others, society might not function as well as one where people think for themselves more and are more independent.

People can be unselfish in different ways too. For example, someone being loyal to their gang might be considered unselfish. But also immoral cus it helps mob culture.

People doing things because of some higher purpose or conscience could be considered moral, but also really stupid because they are not being realistic.


Sometimes being moral, I believe helps yourself too.

For example, one could argue it's part of being civilized and decent by being moral. It becomes almost an obligation and a duty.
So getting your own life together involves becoming a better person, which helps you individually but also makes the world a bit nicer.

Not everyone holy is a saint.

Not every heathen is immoral.
 
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