The Most Awesome of Conversations

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My friend and I recently had an insightful discussion/debate about the Naruto manga (up until ch. 560). It starts a bit slow and is pretty long but it's definitely worth a read if your a fan of the series. It touches a range of story lines including a few recent developments in the plot. *cough Uchihia Madara* Here's a clean version of the conversation:

Levi: ‬ ‪yo‬, got a hair cut
Andrew: ‬ ‪yo‬, nice
Levi: ‬ ‪Lookin’ so fresh and so clean clean‬
Andrew: ‬ ‪read naruto‬, incoming sh*t storm
Levi: ‬ ‪hmm ok‬

Levi: ‪hmmmm‬, the chapter is entitled, “Uchiha Madara”
Levi: you know what that means:
ninjas gonna DIE! Finally!

Levi: ‬ ‪Uchiha Madara looks so‬ CUUOOOOLLLLLLL
(Fan boy scream)
Andrew: ‪smh‬
Levi: ‬ ‪lol‬, he said, “How … Bleak”
Andrew: ‪wait till you get to the part that made me go wtf‬
confirms that Nagato/Pain > Itachi
Levi: ‬huh?‬

Levi: ‬ ‪OMG, the hype
Levi: ‬ ‪He said, “you‬ know about my prime? [Flash]“
He’s like the Michael Jordan of the Naruto Universe
Andrew: Finish?
Levi: ‬ ‪not done yet‬

Levi: ‬ ‪aHDASGFDIUguasfgh WTF‬
HE HAS THE RINNGAN
isdhavashashdvh
WTF
Andrew: told ya,‬ the manga doesn't make sense anymore
I swear Kishi just comes up with stuff on the fly but whatever
Sasuke is still alive and mysterious guy with mask is unknown
Levi: WTF‬
SO SASUKE CAN AQUIRE THE RINNGAN
AND
PAIN WAS part UCHIHA!? WAS HE NOT CONFIRMED BY MADARA TO BE A DESCENDANT THE UZUMAKI CLAN - OR BOTH?‬
Andrew: Nagato/P‪ain was born with the eyes‬
Levi: So basically, he skipped a bunch of stages - how?‬
Levi: Let me just finish the chapter‬

Levi: ‪What does Kabuto mean‬?
Levi: When he says, “beyond‬ what you were in your prime?”
Andrew: ‬ ‪Kabuto gave him a boost in power‬
Levi: ‬ ‪HOW?!‬ no specifics (sigh)
Andrew: what is so cool about this is that Madara fought the F*CKING FIRST HOKAGE WITH THE RINNGAN AND THE LOST‬
Andrew: The 1st hokage is the best
WHO AM I?
THE MOST AWESOME OF NINJAS
Levi: ‪wait‬, what is that thing in the sky?
Andrew: ‪A HUGE FING METEOR‬
Levi: Is Uchiha Madara equal to the sage of six paths in chakra level now?
Andrew: no, ‪nobody will ever be the true sage of the six paths‬
But Madara can now use a fragment of his powers
Levi: Nagato/‪Pain was like‬ less than a fragment lol
Andrew: ‪don't start‬ - nagato>>>>>itachi
remember that!
Levi: ‬ ‪dude‬ … ‪don't start?‬
My only argument was that a ninja’s tactical skill trumps raw power
so thats why I concluded that
itachi would defeat Nagato/Pain
Andrew: ugh.
Levi: Just because you have a better weapon/tool doesn’t necessarily mean that you’ll win a conflict
Remember, “an expert with a sling shot will beat a novice with a gun”
And stop making blanket generalizations
things are not always black and white
forward the conversation
Levi: ‪wow‬, Uchiha Madara is so godlike
He's a combination of Pain and Itachi with
greater chakra levels
utilizes a ridiculous amount of jutsu
faster, stronger and better in every way
Levi: might as well call the manga: Uchiha Clan
Andrew: or Sasuke
Levi: Do you think he will surpass Madara?
Andrew: Sasuke will still go down‬
Andrew: ‪Oh yea,‬ I came to a realization that Orochimaru is the gut behind the mask
Levi: No, ‪remember when he was retrieving his eyes and he fought Konan. The Masked man claimed that he gave his Rinnegan to Nagato.
What did he mean by this? I do not think he's Orochimaru
Andrew: Kabuto said that he was the “assistant” of this the masked person ‬
Levi: Andrew … ‪no‬
Andrew: Who was Kabuto irrevocably loyal to and previously working for?‬ Orochimaru
Levi: ‪Your reading to much into it. They’re merely partners in crime.
Andrew: ‪says the one who thinks Itachi is greater than Nagato
Levi: wow this explains Orochimaru's intentions in the original manga. Like why he wanted Sasuke‬. why he was conducting all those experiments.‬ The only way to truly to master every jutsu was to obtain the rinngan. How do you do that?
According to their hypothesis, obtain a vessel with the sharingan (sasuke) and level up accordingly (3 tomoe, MS, EMS, Rinngan)
Andrew: ‪EVERY THING THAT IS GOING ON IS BECAUSE OF HIM AND HIS ACTIONS!‬
Levi: Pay homage to the original OG ninja: Orochimaru
Andrew: ‪THANK YOU‬! That is all I wanted to hear.
Levi: you know what I just realized
Are you aware of how OP the original Uchiha Clan could have been?
If they listened to Madara … and were not killed by Itachi!
Stupid Itachi, justifying a genocide by trying to avoid a war.
Andrew: ‪LOOK AT WHAT HAPPENED!‬
Levi: ‪seriously though‬, I am starting to hate Konoha.
Andrew: ‪This is just one guy with a pair of sharingans being able to use the rinngan. Can you imagine a ****ing army of these people?! I’m glad they got wiped out.
Levi: Really? Sasuke's ideology is actually starting to make sense.
Andrew: no, it’s not‬. ‪sasuke is an annoyance.‬
Levi: ‪Why?‬
Andrew: hes just too emo.‬
Levi: ‪I'm starting to sympathize with him?‬
Andrew: ‪he doesn’t do anything but show how stupid this manga is at times in terms of logic and common sense‬
Levi: Konoha stunted the evolution of his people‬ ‪and exterminated them‬
Andrew: If he were rational, he would see that his brother did not have a choice
Levi: No, you can never kill others human beings for the greater good
Andrew: or the naruto world would be in constant conflict like in the nickeldeon series avatar‬. HA, LOOK AT WHAT IS HAPPENING NOW!
Levi: There is always another way.
Levi: Alright hypothetical situation …
Andrew: shoot.‬
Levi: ‪Going off what I said before‬
white people = Senju
black people = Uchiha
Andrew: ‪oh boy...‬
Levi: Uchiha Madara is an idealist. He wanted to unite is people under a single cause.
To liberate them from the leaf.
He is comparable to ... Malcom X ok
not Martin Luthor King b/c he was a pacifist
Andrew: ok
Levi: Imagine if the black discourse community ignored Malcom X pleas to separate from the union. 20 years pass by and Black citizens desire to rekindle the revolution.
For social equity, etc, etc
Andrew: ok
Levi: The president, who is white, authorizes the US Military to kill every Black citizen in the US regardless if there were involved in subversive activities. Are you saying that is right or just in order to prevent a civil war?
Andrew: …
Levi: Can you see where I'm coming from? Or where sasuke is coming from? Why he loathes Konoha?
Andrew: Kinda, the only people that were in on it were the hokage, danzo and the elders. You’re gonna punish a whole village that didn't have a clue this was going down … really?
Levi: Plus they brainwashed his brother to do their bidding. I asked if you could understand his anguish?
Andrew: No, I don't even know why he has "anguish". His clan was bad. His brother took care of this. He saved lives. Sasuke is mad because he can't hug mommy and daddy. He was alone for years because his brother wanted to stop a war full of op ninjas that would tear the world stability with their broken ass eyes? Kill yourself Sasuke. Just die already.‬
Levi: dude … you’re so insensitive‬
Andrew: NO I AM NOT‬. Hinata half the time makes me want to cry.‬
Levi: His clan was bad?‬ His clan was BAD?‬‬ BAD, BAD, why? Everyone even the woman and children?
Andrew: dude, they were going to raid the senju clan and kill everybody at night‬. Itachi left his brother alive because he thought he would eventually see what he did was right. If Itachi left all the other kids alive, what do you think we would have? More sasukes lol.‬
Levi: Damn, Itachi even killed his own mother. ‪
Andrew: but do you see my point?‬
Levi: ‪I still don't think it’s morally just though‬
Andrew: If Itachi didn't do it‬, it would be WWWAAAYYY worst.‬
Levi: Not necessarily.
Andrew: Are you kidding me?‬
Levi: ‪I feel like‬ they could have compromised.‬
Levi: The extermination of entire bloodline‬ ‪is bit too much.‬
Andrew: Sasuke is endangered!
Levi: They could have at least attempted to detain the insubordinate ninjas or put up a barrier.
Andrew: Detain them? How‬?
Levi: gen jutsu‬ remember the first conflict during the‬ chunin exams
Andrew: ‪These are ninjas. You want to eliminate a threat. Kill them.‬
Levi: Even before this,‬ the Senju clan segregated and discriminated against the Uchiha clan. They created the initial problem. Treated them like 2nd class citizens.
Levi: ‪perhaps the hokage system was flawed‬
Andrew: Needs more … representation
Levi: ‪Funny the Uchihas disowned Madara‬ b/c they falsely accused him of being a war mongerer
Andrew: How do you disown somebody with the nine tails?‬
Levi: ‪He was the first to realize the problem and they ignored him. Ha, he's almost a tragic character …

cont.

Feel free to comment on the discussion below. Some questions to consider:

What did Kabuto do to Madara's body?

Will Sasuke surpass Madara's "prime"?

Who the hell is the guy behind the mask?

Why does Orochimaru/Kabuto want Sasuke?

Is Sasuke's thirst for vengeance reasonable?

Who would win in a 1 v 1 fight? Itachi or Nagato/Pain. Does tactical genius trump raw power?

Was the massacre of the Uchiha Clan by Itachi necessary? Who was in the right? Konoha or the Uchiha Clan. Is killing for the "greater good" right?

How the hell did the 1st Hokage beat Uchiha Madara? :flaw:

Is Uchiha Madara a tragic character?
 
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CeeJay.

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My friend and I were also texting about the manga yesterday.
Not this, but the most recent chapters in general, he's catching up.

Oh and Welcome to the Base :D
 
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Who the hell is the guy by behind the mask?

Chuck Norris.

Ehm... but seriously, I've read a sensible theory of it being the son of the SO6P, so I'm sticking to that. If you want to read it ...

Why does Orochimaru/Kabuto want Sasuke?

I also think it was for the Rinnegan.

Is Sasuke's thirst for vengeance reasonable?

Thirst for vengeance on the elders who ordered the attack?

Yes.

Wanting to crush an entire village full of innocent people who had no clue of the attack solely because dear Sasuke can't control his goddamn emotions?

No.

Who would win in a 1 v 1 fight? Itachi or Nagato/Pain. Does tactical genius trump raw power?

I'm usually horrible with these questions so I'll leave you with the note that Tobi would probably pwn both of them.

Was the massacre of the Uchiha Clan by Itachi necessary? Who was in the right? Konoha or the Uchiha Clan. Is killing for the "greater good" right?

Killing for the "greater good" is, in my opinion, never right. However, you have to understand that you can't apply the same set of morals from RL to Narutoverse. They're ninjas. Ninjas kill. If the elders felt it necessary to take out a clan that posed a threat, then it sucks for the Uchiha. If the elders then get killed by Sasuke, then it sucks for the elders. Not much else I can say here, it's just the way ninjas roll: the strong survive and the weak get killed. Debating whether it was right or wrong is, ultimately, pointless.

How the hell did the 1st Hokage beat Uchiha Madara?

Magic.

Is Uchiha Madara a tragic character?

No.

Does that answer all of your questions? :p
Yes, it does. Good ideas.

Although, I disagree with you on one point. I think there is value in discussing whether or not "killing" in the Naruto universe is right or wrong b/c the protagonist Naruto is facing the same question. Remember the question posed by Pain earlier in the manga. He asks Naruto how he plans to stop the vicious cycle of death and vengeance associated with the ninja lifestyle. At the time, he was taken aback by the question. He understood Nagato's agony. Naruto is still trying to find his answer.

Thank you everyone for the warm welcome.

ps. I laughed out loud at the Chuck Norris reference.
 
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