I'm not a hater. I didn't say stop making threads or anything. In fact I gave him a compliment in my original post, and then got a butt hurt response. I just have my opinion and he has his. Just because he obviously puts a lot work into the thread doesn't make it a "good theory". Unless of course this is a perfect theory, with no flaws whatsoever and +90% likely to be true, then I'm clearly hating :/
Why do I need to make a theory exactly? Do I have to write one to be able to make a valid critique of someone else's theory? That's preposterous, otherwise you wouldn't be able to make a positive critique either. Sounds like you're just hating on critics.
Status? What do I care about status? I'd make a thread if I felt a need to, and it wasn't already done by another member. I don't see the point in making counter-threads. They just clutter up the forum and foster a poor discourse where the people on either side of a debate get wanked respectively, no middle ground is ever found. There should be room in a thread for both pro's and con's concerning the OP, not just a bunch of pointless "gee what a great thread" posts that, although very uplifting, add 0 to the conversation. At least, I gave the OP the respect to say what I thought was wrong with the thread, I don't see a whole lot of people stating how they agreed with any particular point. Seems the general consensus is that it's a good read, and that makes for great fanfiction.
My comment clearly went over you heard (also your pointless examples are nonsensical unicorns and dragons never existed no matter how you wanna spin it)... I meant I can't prove a negative, so the burden of proof is still on you even if I say there is 0% likely hood you are correct.
I know your argument and it holds no relevance in the manga's plot at all. There is no mention of actual demons ever, and what you're referencing are pictures of Japanese oni that obviously influenced the artist, not a demon that hops from body to body. The funny part is the images aren't even actual things that happened in the NV, but character imaginings or symbolism. Simply put there is nothing for me to debate because this a story that only exists in your head.
I appreciate genuine criticism (as opposed to abuse) but calling a theory a fanfiction is not a compliment and calling one a nice fanfiction is just plain patronizing. If you have any actual arguments I’ll happily engage them. You do have a general point though – a lot of any theory is wishful thinking. I do still think there is a pattern in Orochimaru’s behaviour and I do think that the recurring use of the title “the demon” is not a coincidence. Of course there isn’t enough time to address such an expansive new development before the series (or at least the Part 2 Shippuden run) finishes in a couple of weeks time but I do expect it to turn up in either “The Last” or in a Part 3 New Era Project and possibly get some foreshadowing in the coming chapters.
Anyway you were suggesting that I believe in mythical animals, I don’t. Some creatures are ridiculous notions created by charlatans in times gone by as part of circus exhibits. Sometimes however the myths are there to try and explain truths in times before scientific study. Which brings me back to a slightly different angle on the topic of the Demon myth in Naruto:
Demonic Possession
People used to believe that spirits would possess certain individuals. I happen to have one of the conditions that used to be described as possession. I had a bout of brain swelling (encephalitis) and woke up a month later. I lost about six months of memory, apparently knocked out two very large psychiatric nurses and bit through my own tongue. (I recovered fully incidentally)
What has this got to do with Naruto you might ask. Well in Japanese mythology erratic behaviour (like fits / memory loss) was put down to the influence of animal spirits … what would be known as possession. The two most popular animals that would possess individuals were said to be foxes and snakes. When I see Naruto lose consciousness:
You must be registered for see images
…attack people without realising it:
You must be registered for see images
…need to be restrained:
You must be registered for see images
… and wake up with no memory whatsoever:
You must be registered for see images
It is all too familiar*
*excuse the play on words. A familiar is the traditional term for an animal spirit in old English. The Japanese aren’t the only ones to have believed that spirits could possess humans. A lot of words have their roots in describing similar behaviour – getting “giddy” refers to possession by a spirit/god, while going “berserk” refers to turning into a bear (ber=bear + serk=skin).
If I had been born even a hundred years ago, I might have woken up in a Lunatic Asylum or Looney Bin. A lunatic is what people with epilepsy would have been described as in the past. People believed that such odd behaviour was connected to the cycle of the moon (the “Lunar” cycle). The same logic is behind the myths of werewolves.
"Tsuki", in Japanese, can mean both "moon" and "possession" as in the prefix of Tsukuyomi. "Yomi" is generally interpreted as "counting" meaning that "Tsukuyomi" is mostly translated as referring to the tracing of the lunar cycle ("Moon Counting"). However, Yomi can also refer to the Underworld (where the Demons traditionally live). Mugen Tsukuyomi essentially has a double meaning as Inifinite Underworld (or Demonic) Possession (*at least according to Wikipedia) beyond the usual translation of Infinite Moon Counting.
You can even see this folklore logic applied in the Manga with Shukaku becoming uncontrollable on a full moon:
You must be registered for see images
Or indeed in the mass hypnosis of Infinite Tsukuyomi by the Demon using the moon:
You must be registered for see images
The top four myths about possession in Japanese folklore, in reverse order, refer to Tengu (Susanoo), Tanooki (Shukaku), Snakes (guess who) and Foxes (especially nine tailed foxes e.g. Kitsune):
You must be registered for see images
You may think that it is just a coincidence that Toby took the form of a Snake during his Jinchuuriki transformation:
You must be registered for see images
…and that he acquired scales on his white Zetsu body + couldn’t remember his own name:
You must be registered for see images
… but Tobyo happens to be another word for Snake in Japanese. Maybe it’s just a coincidence though.
The Snake that took over Obito used some kind of Mokuton enhanced genjutsu to tear Obito’s psyche apart but Obito had not cut all his bonds yet, he would not let go of Rin:
You must be registered for see images
Orochimaru’s possession of Sasuke has been symbolically represented time and again in conjunction with the Moon. See Jiraiya’s warning with a moonlit Oro:
You must be registered for see images
Later Sasuke is shown replicating the same scene:
You must be registered for see images
While the Uchiha Massacre happened to occur on a full moon:
You must be registered for see images
Sometimes Kishi is not so subtle and he just wraps Sasuke in Orochimaru’s tongue (though note how Sasuke is in the Snake Genjutsu pose yet again - see above re Kaguya):
You must be registered for see images
Much as I’m interested in the fight between Naruto and Sasuke, I’m more interested to see whether Sasuke can overcome his demons…
I appreciate genuine criticism (as opposed to abuse) but calling a theory a fanfiction is not a compliment and calling one a nice fanfiction is just plain patronizing. If you have any actual arguments I’ll happily engage them. You do have a general point though – a lot of any theory is wishful thinking. I do still think there is a pattern in Orochimaru’s behaviour and I do think that the recurring use of the title “the demon” is not a coincidence. Of course there isn’t enough time to address such an expansive new development before the series (or at least the Part 2 Shippuden run) finishes in a couple of weeks time but I do expect it to turn up in either “The Last” or in a Part 3 New Era Project and possibly get some foreshadowing in the coming chapters.
Anyway you were suggesting that I believe in mythical animals, I don’t. Some creatures are ridiculous notions created by charlatans in times gone by as part of circus exhibits. Sometimes however the myths are there to try and explain truths in times before scientific study. Which brings me back to a slightly different angle on the topic of the Demon myth in Naruto:
Demonic Possession
People used to believe that spirits would possess certain individuals. I happen to have one of the conditions that used to be described as possession. I had a bout of brain swelling (encephalitis) and woke up a month later. I lost about six months of memory, apparently knocked out two very large psychiatric nurses and bit through my own tongue. (I recovered fully incidentally)
What has this got to do with Naruto you might ask. Well in Japanese mythology erratic behaviour (like fits / memory loss) was put down to the influence of animal spirits … what would be known as possession. The two most popular animals that would possess individuals were said to be foxes and snakes. When I see Naruto lose consciousness:
You must be registered for see images
…attack people without realising it:
You must be registered for see images
…need to be restrained:
You must be registered for see images
… and wake up with no memory whatsoever:
You must be registered for see images
It is all too familiar*
*excuse the play on words. A familiar is the traditional term for an animal spirit in old English. The Japanese aren’t the only ones to have believed that spirits could possess humans. A lot of words have their roots in describing similar behaviour – getting “giddy” refers to possession by a spirit/god, while going “berserk” refers to turning into a bear (ber=bear + serk=skin).
If I had been born even a hundred years ago, I might have woken up in a Lunatic Asylum or Looney Bin. A lunatic is what people with epilepsy would have been described as in the past. People believed that such odd behaviour was connected to the cycle of the moon (the “Lunar” cycle). The same logic is behind the myths of werewolves.
"Tsuki", in Japanese, can mean both "moon" and "possession" as in the prefix of Tsukuyomi. "Yomi" is generally interpreted as "counting" meaning that "Tsukuyomi" is mostly translated as referring to the tracing of the lunar cycle ("Moon Counting"). However, Yomi can also refer to the Underworld (where the Demons traditionally live). Mugen Tsukuyomi essentially has a double meaning as Inifinite Underworld (or Demonic) Possession (*at least according to Wikipedia) beyond the usual translation of Infinite Moon Counting.
You can even see this folklore logic applied in the Manga with Shukaku becoming uncontrollable on a full moon:
You must be registered for see images
Or indeed in the mass hypnosis of Infinite Tsukuyomi by the Demon using the moon:
You must be registered for see images
The top four myths about possession in Japanese folklore, in reverse order, refer to Tengu (Susanoo), Tanooki (Shukaku), Snakes (guess who) and Foxes (especially nine tailed foxes e.g. Kitsune):
You must be registered for see images
You may think that it is just a coincidence that Toby took the form of a Snake during his Jinchuuriki transformation:
You must be registered for see images
…and that he acquired scales on his white Zetsu body + couldn’t remember his own name:
You must be registered for see images
… but Tobyo happens to be another word for Snake in Japanese. Maybe it’s just a coincidence though.
The Snake that took over Obito used some kind of Mokuton enhanced genjutsu to tear Obito’s psyche apart but Obito had not cut all his bonds yet, he would not let go of Rin:
You must be registered for see images
Orochimaru’s possession of Sasuke has been symbolically represented time and again in conjunction with the Moon. See Jiraiya’s warning with a moonlit Oro:
You must be registered for see images
Later Sasuke is shown replicating the same scene:
You must be registered for see images
While the Uchiha Massacre happened to occur on a full moon:
You must be registered for see images
Sometimes Kishi is not so subtle and he just wraps Sasuke in Orochimaru’s tongue (though note how Sasuke is in the Snake Genjutsu pose yet again - see above re Kaguya):
You must be registered for see images
Much as I’m interested in the fight between Naruto and Sasuke, I’m more interested to see whether Sasuke can overcome his demons…
OMG! take your victimhood somewhere else. I never said anything about you personally, so there was need for you to get personally offended. If you don't like consenting opinions stay the hell off the internet. I'm not even going to bother reading there rest of your post after that drivel. I'll just leave this poor defenseless innocent theory crafter alone to continue his work of accurately predicting the super likely revival of orochimaru as the main villain via demonic possession. Will def be waiting on baited breath for that one, buddy.
Incredible analysis, obviously a lot of time was put into this. Really nice how you incorporated so many different parts in the manga's development and formed a connection. Obviously can't be sure if any of these parallels were thought out as well by Kishi, but regardless, this is a compelling read.
And seriously Draxus, come back after your period has subsided. You call his thread a fanfic (after he clearly dedicated a lot of time and effort into writing it), then blab on and on about your unimportant opinions like you're the leader of this thread. Make your own theory and act like a king there, you add nothing of value to this discussion. Whereas the ideas expressed in the OP are well thought out and intricately detailed, your thoughts are dull and lack substance. Feel free to call me names as well, seems like it's your strong suit.
Incredible analysis, obviously a lot of time was put into this. Really nice how you incorporated so many different parts in the manga's development and formed a connection. Obviously can't be sure if any of these parallels were thought out as well by Kishi, but regardless, this is a compelling read.
And seriously Draxus, come back after your period has subsided. You call his thread a fanfic (after he clearly dedicated a lot of time and effort into writing it), then blab on and on about your unimportant opinions like you're the leader of this thread. Make your own theory and act like a king there, you add nothing of value to this discussion. Whereas the ideas expressed in the OP are well thought out and intricately detailed, your thoughts are dull and lack substance. Feel free to call me names as well, seems like it's your strong suit.
What's with the white knight syndrome in this thread? Are you people daft? I'm not attacking the OP AT ALL! I never called anyone a name. I think I made one quip at his expense with the unicorn thing, clearly just a silly comment.
Secondly, I add far more than your empty and non-reflective praise of the OP and tear down of my opinions. There is no substance whatsoever on either account. Seriously, there is nothing in your post that even references any specific part of the "theory", you could literal copy and past that first paragraph on ever single theory thread on this forum. I can't even tell you fully read and/or understood it. But hey, wank on brother! Don't let me slow you down. But you know actual discussion is give and take, not one person talking and the other nodding blankly, right? At any rate, I've literally created the only discussion in this thread.
Lastly, please do not confuse fan fiction with poorly written and not thought out rp or predictions some people do on this site. There are tons of really great fan fiction out there, even worthy of being published. It's not a diss to call something fanfic, it's just a point of fact.
Actually one more point: "make your own theory and act like a king there." Oh NOW I see. You really think threads are purely for praising the OP as if they are your lord and you're their loyal surf. Dude, it's okay not to be sheeple and speak your mind if you don't like something. It doesn't mean you're being mean or disrespectful. It certainly doesn't mean I want to rule the thread. NO ONE RUNS THE THREAD EXCEPT THE MODERATORS. Everyone has the right to post on any thread with whatever they feel is relevant to it, doesn't matter if it's a pro or con/right or wrong.
Yeah my writing style is blunt and abrasiveness. If it rubs people the wrong way, good! If they're not smart enough or too sensitive to unclench their buttholes long enough to actually comprehend what's written instead of what they think I'm trying say... they can go rant, whine, or hide, but I prefer a intellectually honest discourse (no trolling). For the record, I find all four entertaining though.
Now I say this to anyone who read this thread in general:
You can try to pretend this isn't fanfic, and try to say this is a legitimate plausible theory to avoid whatever negative stigma around the genre you may hold. But what irks me is that it's so disingenuous. The OP really isn't trying to look for the connections Kishi is making, but instead, to write the connection and story HE wants to see or imagines if HE was the author. Again, there is nothing wrong with this, very creative and clearly a lot of effort put in, but that is the difference between theories and fanfiction. Either can be sloppy done and stupid or well done and imaginative. I've been saying the OP is the latter, but people are acting like I'm ripping it. No, I'm simply stating I don't agree it's a theory. I think it's far more interesting discussion to debate whether this is an actually theory over if it's going to happen or not, since we already know the latter isn't happening.
OK seriously done now. Anyone who thinks I'm a big ol' meany can reference that last paragraph. If you're still sore about it, I'll gladly PM with you.
OMG! take your victimhood somewhere else. I never said anything about you personally, so there was need for you to get personally offended. If you don't like consenting opinions stay the hell off the internet. I'm not even going to bother reading there rest of your post after that drivel. I'll just leave this poor defenseless innocent theory crafter alone to continue his work of accurately predicting the super likely revival of orochimaru as the main villain via demonic possession. Will def be waiting on baited breath for that one, buddy.
What's with the white knight syndrome in this thread? Are you people daft? I'm not attacking the OP AT ALL! I never called anyone a name. I think I made one quip at his expense with the unicorn thing, clearly just a silly comment.
Secondly, I add far more than your empty and non-reflective praise of the OP and tear down of my opinions. There is no substance whatsoever on either account. Seriously, there is nothing in your post that even references any specific part of the "theory", you could literal copy and past that first paragraph on ever single theory thread on this forum. I can't even tell you fully read and/or understood it. But hey, wank on brother! Don't let me slow you down. But you know actual discussion is give and take, not one person talking and the other nodding blankly, right? At any rate, I've literally created the only discussion in this thread.
Lastly, please do not confuse fan fiction with poorly written and not thought out rp or predictions some people do on this site. There are tons of really great fan fiction out there, even worthy of being published. It's not a diss to call something fanfic, it's just a point of fact.
Actually one more point: "make your own theory and act like a king there." Oh NOW I see. You really think threads are purely for praising the OP as if they are your lord and you're their loyal surf. Dude, it's okay not to be sheeple and speak your mind if you don't like something. It doesn't mean you're being mean or disrespectful. It certainly doesn't mean I want to rule the thread. NO ONE RUNS THE THREAD EXCEPT THE MODERATORS. Everyone has the right to post on any thread with whatever they feel is relevant to it, doesn't matter if it's a pro or con/right or wrong.
Yeah my writing style is blunt and abrasiveness. If it rubs people the wrong way, good! If they're not smart enough or too sensitive to unclench their buttholes long enough to actually comprehend what's written instead of what they think I'm trying say... they can go rant, whine, or hide, but I prefer a intellectually honest discourse (no trolling). For the record, I find all four entertaining though.
Now I say this to anyone who read this thread in general:
You can try to pretend this isn't fanfic, and try to say this is a legitimate plausible theory to avoid whatever negative stigma around the genre you may hold. But what irks me is that it's so disingenuous. The OP really isn't trying to look for the connections Kishi is making, but instead, to write the connection and story HE wants to see or imagines if HE was the author. Again, there is nothing wrong with this, very creative and clearly a lot of effort put in, but that is the difference between theories and fanfiction. Either can be sloppy done and stupid or well done and imaginative. I've been saying the OP is the latter, but people are acting like I'm ripping it. No, I'm simply stating I don't agree it's a theory. I think it's far more interesting discussion to debate whether this is an actually theory over if it's going to happen or not, since we already know the latter isn't happening.
OK seriously done now. Anyone who thinks I'm a big ol' meany can reference that last paragraph. If you're still sore about it, I'll gladly PM with you.
Dude tone it down a bit. I appreciate some criticism and while I’ll feign insult, I was just using your comment as an excuse from which to hang a different perspective on the topic. This theory is long in the making and has had many (perhaps too many) iterations. I can’t see Kishi squeezing all this in before November 10 but then I can’t see Kishi fitting in any kind of satisfying conclusion by then.
These are collected ideas built up on a theme and nothing more. I can only show potential trajectories for the story and not proof of any development. Theories rarely prove anything, like I said earlier they are conceptual frameworks that mostly try and anticipate future developments. Theories that can prove their premise are not really theories they are “proofs”. The sum total of this theory is nothing more than a collection of fragments of information that point in one direction.
While I enjoy the banter (I’m sure you mean no personal offense and I hope you take no personal offense either), please don’t insult the readers, they’ll only turn on you which, while I’m not very concerned about your feelings, only serves to diminish the thread.
If this theory has 0% chance of happening then I’d like to hear what you think has any chance of happening (presumably anything other than this). Nonetheless, thanks for the reality check. I’ve still got at least two more expansions that can fit under this topic. I don’t want to start a new Tobidara epidemic (though I like the basic idea) or Sojobo trend (again another good rival theory). A bit of devil’s advocate is a good thing (hell this whole theory could be described as such) but a little less abrasiveness would be appreciated.
Nicely done, I always love how you incorporate Orochimaru and BZ conspire the whole series in relation with Kaguya and the snake which I also believe the Rabbit caused Kaguya into the depth of darkness. However since it was confirmed to end in 5 weeks, with so much stuff unexplained, by the end of this series it's possible it's going to leave some cliffhanger ,for the future outcome.
I believe we will see in the Last Naruto the movie regarding Kaguya, however from this point on, the only problem with your theory is that Orochimaru is becoming more and more irreverent, which i don't think there's enough room for the content to fit in the movie, especially considering a strong possibility that it's an epilogue for this series . Personally, from what we've gather in the movie, Naruto and Sasuke are confirmed alive which probably means that Oro won't be satisfied with the way Sasuke's wind blows after the fight with Naruto.
Anyway, I'm always impressed with your theory so great job, wish I can give you +rep but I need to spread it more.
Regardless of all the bashing going around here, Lol I am just gonna leave a few ideas here that I posted in your earlier threads. If you can put them in the pictures, It would be highly appreciated. Even if it sounds far-fetched, I really want to see the full version of this plot line. I can't do it cause of slow net.
It's concerned with Orochimaru's or the Naga's venom :-
Remember Black Zetsu, the dark substance of Gudoudama, the Black rods, etc; What if they were all engineered from Orochimaru's venom ?
It seems that Orochimaru was able to spread his venom to pretty much everyone through Black Zetsu and :Cough his minions. Cursed seals come to mind here and the similarities you pointed with Black Zetsu.
Since, I am in a bit of a hurry, I can't provide manga scans. Even though it's pretty long, I hope you will read it completely as this is something that I found suspicious :-
We already know that Black Zetsu was able to control the Gedo Mazou (At least, partially). This is shown when he was able to bring out the victims of Infinite Tskyumoni (White Zetsus) from Gedo Mazou to trick Madara and when he manifested himself as a black rod (Shown by the above Theory).
Whenever the Akatsuki members used to extract the Bijuus using the Gedo Mazou they always used to synchronize their chakra and as such form a chakra link between themselves and the Gedo Mazou.
The Akatsuki members used to do this by the rings they wore. The properties of the Akatsuki rings and Black Rods are very similar as they both establish a chakra link. So, I believe the rings played a vital role in spreading Black Zetsu's influence.
Moving on, if we assume that the Akatsuki members synchronized or connected themselves with the Gedo Mazou, it seems Black Zetsu exploited this connection to either directly or indirectly control the Akatsuki members :-
1) Zetsu- Consisted of White and Black Zetsu allowing Black Zetsu to exploit the Chakra link and control the Akatsuki members.
2) Nagato- Had Black Rods embedded in his body allowing Black Zetsu to influence him.
3) Obito- Had Black Rods in his body (Used by Madara to revive himself) and Madara's cursed seal.
4) Sasori- His puppet immortality was suspicious. I highly doubt he was able to turn himself into a puppet without someone's help (Black Zetsu). Moreover, Iron Sand seems very similar to Black Rods, Iron Sand is like Black Rods in a particle form.
5) Kakuzu- Used Earth Grudge Fear by using black strings which are again similar to Black Rods.
6) Hidan- His immortality was suspicious, but whenever he used to pierce his heart in his rituals, he would use a Black Rod like Staff.
7) Deidara- As shown by Rabbit Teth (The above theory), his suicide bombing attack seems very similar to Black Zetsu. It's like a Black Zetsu was living inside him.
8) Kisame- If Samehada is connected to the Shinju, then it could be used by Black Zetsu to influence Kisame. Samehada has black rod like needles on it's hilt. It uses it to give chakra and attack people not compatible with the sword. The usage of the black needles on Samehada is the same as black rods, i.e; transfer of Chakra.
9) Itachi- No influence shown yet, that's why Black Zetsu wanted to get rid of him as quickly as possible, shown by Obito's concerns.
10) Konan- No influence shown yet. But, she followed Nagato who was influenced by Black Zetsu.
11) Madara uses Black Rods and Gudoudamas (Juubi Jinchuriki).
12) Orochimaru- The similarities between Orochimaru and Black Zetsu are obvious if you have read Rabbit Teth's theories.
Black Zetsu would always ensure that White Zetsu would eat up the bodies of dead Akatsuki members, their minions and those who betrayed the Akatsuki perhaps to remove evidence of Black Zetsu's influence.
Also, Black Zetsu would always retrieve the Akatsuki rings so that he could influence even more people through the Gedo Mazou Chakra link.
But, for some reason, Black Zetsu not only allows Orochimaru to betray the Akatsuki and take away his ring with him. This shows that :-
1) The ring allowed Black Zetsu to influence Orochimaru at least until Orochimaru stopped wearing it.
OR
2) Black Zetsu and Orochimaru had a shady alliance for a greater purpose. (The revival of Kaguya and the ripening of the Shinju's fruit).
What's with the white knight syndrome in this thread? Are you people daft? I'm not attacking the OP AT ALL! I never called anyone a name. I think I made one quip at his expense with the unicorn thing, clearly just a silly comment.
Secondly, I add far more than your empty and non-reflective praise of the OP and tear down of my opinions. There is no substance whatsoever on either account. Seriously, there is nothing in your post that even references any specific part of the "theory", you could literal copy and past that first paragraph on ever single theory thread on this forum. I can't even tell you fully read and/or understood it. But hey, wank on brother! Don't let me slow you down. But you know actual discussion is give and take, not one person talking and the other nodding blankly, right? At any rate, I've literally created the only discussion in this thread.
Lastly, please do not confuse fan fiction with poorly written and not thought out rp or predictions some people do on this site. There are tons of really great fan fiction out there, even worthy of being published. It's not a diss to call something fanfic, it's just a point of fact.
Actually one more point: "make your own theory and act like a king there." Oh NOW I see. You really think threads are purely for praising the OP as if they are your lord and you're their loyal surf. Dude, it's okay not to be sheeple and speak your mind if you don't like something. It doesn't mean you're being mean or disrespectful. It certainly doesn't mean I want to rule the thread. NO ONE RUNS THE THREAD EXCEPT THE MODERATORS. Everyone has the right to post on any thread with whatever they feel is relevant to it, doesn't matter if it's a pro or con/right or wrong.
Yeah my writing style is blunt and abrasiveness. If it rubs people the wrong way, good! If they're not smart enough or too sensitive to unclench their buttholes long enough to actually comprehend what's written instead of what they think I'm trying say... they can go rant, whine, or hide, but I prefer a intellectually honest discourse (no trolling). For the record, I find all four entertaining though.
Now I say this to anyone who read this thread in general:
You can try to pretend this isn't fanfic, and try to say this is a legitimate plausible theory to avoid whatever negative stigma around the genre you may hold. But what irks me is that it's so disingenuous. The OP really isn't trying to look for the connections Kishi is making, but instead, to write the connection and story HE wants to see or imagines if HE was the author. Again, there is nothing wrong with this, very creative and clearly a lot of effort put in, but that is the difference between theories and fanfiction. Either can be sloppy done and stupid or well done and imaginative. I've been saying the OP is the latter, but people are acting like I'm ripping it. No, I'm simply stating I don't agree it's a theory. I think it's far more interesting discussion to debate whether this is an actually theory over if it's going to happen or not, since we already know the latter isn't happening.
OK seriously done now. Anyone who thinks I'm a big ol' meany can reference that last paragraph. If you're still sore about it, I'll gladly PM with you.
I just found it incredibly distasteful how you entered this thread with your OPINION that this is a fanfiction, and stated it as a fact. One sentence, no reasoning. I don't believe it's bad at all to disagree with a thread, but at least have the respect to start off with a post that addresses your reasoning. When I say you act like you're somehow above others, it's because you tried to shift the discussion towards your opinion of this being a fanfic rather than pointing out specific instances in the thread that you disagreed with and going in depth with your reasoning. Also, I don't see positive comments without reasoning as doing any harm, but I do find negative comments without backing quite irritating. I get your point though, and I have more respect for you now. I just wish your first post was as thought out as this one.
A while back I noticed a lot of parallels between an ancient tale that explains the origin of the Elixir of Immortality and the story of the Fruit of the Shinju. The manga does not slavishly follow this old fable but I was taken aback by the number of references Kishi makes to it. The story tells the origin of the power of the gods and informs the character development of a number of key figures. It's a very symbolic tale and not the easiest to follow but hopefully you can see the parallels.
The Elixir of Immortality
Kishi takes a lot of inspiration from religious teachings in his work. There are countless examples of ancient tales being worked into his story, mixed together and updated with his own cast of characters.
One story in particular that Kishi borrows from relates to the creation of the Elixir of Immortality aka Amrita (in India), Ambrosia/the Nectar of the gods (in Europe), Soma (in Persia / current day Iran and the Middle East) or what is known in the Narutoverse as the Fruit of the Shinju (NB once every 1000 years):
You must be registered for see images
It is said to grant great power with which Kaguya was able to quell the warring Ninja tribes:
You must be registered for see images
What is not told is how the fruit is supposed to be able to grow. While looking up stories about the Tree of Life (the Shinju) I stumbled on some legends that incorporate some very familiar characters in a proverb that parallels the battle for Sasuke’s soul.
The myth with the most similarities that I could find was the Churning of the Sea of Milk. While the story is not exactly the same as Naruto, there are enough parallels to make me think that it forms one of the basic inspirations for many of the most recent developments. Despite a fine western education, I cannot begin to grasp all the subtleties of this tale. Suffice to say that it is a very ancient story that forms a foundation myth for several belief systems that many far wiser than me have spent lifetimes pondering.
The basic story can be expressed in one picture:
You must be registered for see images
In order to expand the story I will use characters in the Narutoverse and panels that parallel this tale.
The story starts with Indra, a self-centred deity who is given a gift of a garland. Indra accepts the gift and promptly places it on his elephant who throws the gift to the ground because he knows that Indra is not worthy of it…
Egotistical Indra reincarnation (Kishi didn’t even change the name):
You must be registered for see images
While this incident seems innocuous enough, it starts a thousand year war between the Devas with Indra as their prince:
You must be registered for see images
and the Asuras (animal spirits):
You must be registered for see images
You will note how the names of Indra and Asura correspond to the two sons of Hagoromo who have been warring for about a thousand years in their various incarnations over the generations:
Indra’s Hosts vs Asura’s Hosts:
You must be registered for see images
but also note how the Devas correspond to the spirit of the Uchiha in the painting above..
Statue of Seishi:
You must be registered for see images
Uchiha Spirit in Itachi’s version of Uchiha History:
You must be registered for see images
…while the Asuras (aka Demons) correspond to the Jinchuuriki / Bijuu in their basic design…
Jinchuuriki
You must be registered for see images
You must be registered for see images
In order to create Amrita and grant the Devas immortality, Vishnu brings together the two warring factions in order to Churn the Sea of Milk. I think that this represents the Sea of Milk (Orochimaru’s home):
You must be registered for see images
and that the milk is the White Zetsu extracted by milking those captured in Mugen Tsukuyomi:
You must be registered for see images
Shown in the painting as such:
You must be registered for see images
The process of churning starts on a giant turtle with a mountain on its back:
You must be registered for see images
The Mountain on the Turtles back is called Mount Meru-Mandara – Here Turtle Island is put into a spin by Kabuto’s Snake Manda:
You must be registered for see images
Manda:
You must be registered for see images
Turtle in painting (it doesn’t look like one but it’s supposed to represent one):
You must be registered for see images
The forces of the Devas (headed by Indra) and the Asuras then work simultaneously both in opposition and in harmony with each other to churn the sea of milk by having a tug of war using a giant snake:
Shinobi Alliance Tug of War:
You must be registered for see images
Naruto vs Kurama Tug of War
You must be registered for see images
Painting
You must be registered for see images
The churning is a slow process and takes a thousand years….as long as the war between Indra and Asura in the Narutoverse. The first product of this churning is not the Elixir of Immortality but the most concentrated and deadly of poisons, Halahala…an oblique reference to the birth of Black Zetsu?:
You must be registered for see images
Eventually the Amrita came forth and was collected in a jug. The message of the story is that success is preceded by great suffering. The Halahala is consumed by Vishnu, whose body turns blue because of the poison.
Hagoromo before poison:
You must be registered for see images
Hagoromo after poison:
You must be registered for see images
Vishnu turned blue after consuming the world’s evil in the Painting (and yes that is a Lotus he is sitting on):
You must be registered for see images
Gedo on a Lotus
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This story has many hidden meanings, which I can't begin to fully understand. However, it is one of the oldest meditations on the relationship between Yin and Yang. The story establishes opposing forces that when working in harmony can achieve great things… the teaching left in Hagoromo’s tablet:
You must be registered for see images
At the heart of the story is also a tug of war over the body of snake. The Snake in the tale is called Vasuki (think Sasuke with a V). The tug of war at first brings forth great suffering before it churns the greatest reward.
After the Tug of War Vishnu (god responsible for maintaining order) withdraws to the Sea of Milk and reclines on Shesha (the god of destruction):
You must be registered for see images
Shesha is the thousand headed serpent. Hopefully I’m not the only one who can see a resemblance to a certain other thousand-headed Snake:
You must be registered for see images
Incidentally Shesha translates into Seishi in Japanese. Seishi happens to be the name of Kishi’s twin. Shesha means the one who remains when all else ceases to exist. Something tells me Orochimaru has nothing to fear from the end of the Universe. Nonetheless Shesha and the rest of the Nagas (serpents, of whom Shesha was the first) strive to become human because it is the only means of them attaining true enlightenment … Orochimaru still needs Sasuke's body:
A while back I noticed a lot of parallels between an ancient tale that explains the origin of the Elixir of Immortality and the story of the Fruit of the Shinju. The manga does not slavishly follow this old fable but I was taken aback by the number of references Kishi makes to it. The story tells the origin of the power of the gods and informs the character development of a number of key figures. It's a very symbolic tale and not the easiest to follow but hopefully you can see the parallels.
The Elixir of Immortality
Kishi takes a lot of inspiration from religious teachings in his work. There are countless examples of ancient tales being worked into his story, mixed together and updated with his own cast of characters.
One story in particular that Kishi borrows from relates to the creation of the Elixir of Immortality aka Amrita (in India), Ambrosia/the Nectar of the gods (in Europe), Soma (in Persia / current day Iran and the Middle East) or what is known in the Narutoverse as the Fruit of the Shinju (NB once every 1000 years):
You must be registered for see images
It is said to grant great power with which Kaguya was able to quell the warring Ninja tribes:
You must be registered for see images
What is not told is how the fruit is supposed to be able to grow. While looking up stories about the Tree of Life (the Shinju) I stumbled on some legends that incorporate some very familiar characters in a proverb that parallels the battle for Sasuke’s soul.
The myth with the most similarities that I could find was the Churning of the Sea of Milk. While the story is not exactly the same as Naruto, there are enough parallels to make me think that it forms one of the basic inspirations for many of the most recent developments. Despite a fine western education, I cannot begin to grasp all the subtleties of this tale. Suffice to say that it is a very ancient story that forms a foundation myth for several belief systems that many far wiser than me have spent lifetimes pondering.
The basic story can be expressed in one picture:
You must be registered for see images
In order to expand the story I will use characters in the Narutoverse and panels that parallel this tale.
The story starts with Indra, a self-centred deity who is given a gift of a garland. Indra accepts the gift and promptly places it on his elephant who throws the gift to the ground because he knows that Indra is not worthy of it…
Egotistical Indra reincarnation (Kishi didn’t even change the name):
You must be registered for see images
While this incident seems innocuous enough, it starts a thousand year war between the Devas with Indra as their prince:
You must be registered for see images
and the Asuras (animal spirits):
You must be registered for see images
You will note how the names of Indra and Asura correspond to the two sons of Hagoromo who have been warring for about a thousand years in their various incarnations over the generations:
Indra’s Hosts vs Asura’s Hosts:
You must be registered for see images
but also note how the Devas correspond to the spirit of the Uchiha in the painting above..
Statue of Seishi:
You must be registered for see images
Uchiha Spirit in Itachi’s version of Uchiha History:
You must be registered for see images
…while the Asuras (aka Demons) correspond to the Jinchuuriki / Bijuu in their basic design…
Jinchuuriki
You must be registered for see images
You must be registered for see images
In order to create Amrita and grant the Devas immortality, Vishnu brings together the two warring factions in order to Churn the Sea of Milk. I think that this represents the Sea of Milk (Orochimaru’s home):
You must be registered for see images
and that the milk is the White Zetsu extracted by milking those captured in Mugen Tsukuyomi:
You must be registered for see images
Shown in the painting as such:
You must be registered for see images
The process of churning starts on a giant turtle with a mountain on its back:
You must be registered for see images
The Mountain on the Turtles back is called Mount Meru-Mandara – Here Turtle Island is put into a spin by Kabuto’s Snake Manda:
You must be registered for see images
Manda:
You must be registered for see images
Turtle in painting (it doesn’t look like one but it’s supposed to represent one):
You must be registered for see images
The forces of the Devas (headed by Indra) and the Asuras then work simultaneously both in opposition and in harmony with each other to churn the sea of milk by having a tug of war using a giant snake:
Shinobi Alliance Tug of War:
You must be registered for see images
Naruto vs Kurama Tug of War
You must be registered for see images
Painting
You must be registered for see images
The churning is a slow process and takes a thousand years….as long as the war between Indra and Asura in the Narutoverse. The first product of this churning is not the Elixir of Immortality but the most concentrated and deadly of poisons, Halahala…an oblique reference to the birth of Black Zetsu?:
You must be registered for see images
Eventually the Amrita came forth and was collected in a jug. The message of the story is that success is preceded by great suffering. The Halahala is consumed by Vishnu, whose body turns blue because of the poison.
Hagoromo before poison:
You must be registered for see images
Hagoromo after poison:
You must be registered for see images
Vishnu turned blue after consuming the world’s evil in the Painting (and yes that is a Lotus he is sitting on):
You must be registered for see images
Gedo on a Lotus
You must be registered for see images
This story has many hidden meanings, which I can't begin to fully understand. However, it is one of the oldest meditations on the relationship between Yin and Yang. The story establishes opposing forces that when working in harmony can achieve great things… the teaching left in Hagoromo’s tablet:
You must be registered for see images
At the heart of the story is also a tug of war over the body of snake. The Snake in the tale is called Vasuki (think Sasuke with a V). The tug of war at first brings forth great suffering before it churns the greatest reward.
After the Tug of War Vishnu (god responsible for maintaining order) withdraws to the Sea of Milk and reclines on Shesha (the god of destruction):
You must be registered for see images
Shesha is the thousand headed serpent. Hopefully I’m not the only one who can see a resemblance to a certain other thousand-headed Snake:
You must be registered for see images
Incidentally Shesha translates into Seishi in Japanese. Seishi happens to be the name of Kishi’s twin. Shesha means the one who remains when all else ceases to exist. Something tells me Orochimaru has nothing to fear from the end of the Universe. Nonetheless Shesha and the rest of the Nagas (serpents, of whom Shesha was the first) strive to become human because it is the only means of them attaining true enlightenment … Orochimaru still needs Sasuke's body:
God damn. How to you work so fast ? You got me at " Mazo on lotus" Hell nice observation. Please keep it up bro! It does make so much sense, kishi should read your theories imo. :>
God damn. How to you work so fast ? You got me at " Mazo on lotus" Hell nice observation. Please keep it up bro! It does make so much sense, kishi should read your theories imo. :>
Thanks. They don't take too long to write. The thing that takes longest is getting the pictures that show the reasoning. I just wanted to get all my thoughts down on one thread before the big finale. I think Kishi has set up a lot of material for a part III. If he needs any ideas he's welcome to borrow some but I think he's more sophisticated than a lot of people give him credit for. Hopefully I'm not beating a dead horse.
@Dragonor - still getting there. Ive got a couple more ideas I wanted to develop first.
Here's part 1 about some symbolism regarding Hamura. I've covered most of this before so apologies if you've read chunks of it already. I've expanded on some interesting points and this serves as context for part 2 on the Uzumaki / Hyuuga. I don't want to annoy anyone with endless new threads so I'll keep the theories on the same theme contained here.
Hamura’s Avatar
We know very little about Hamura but I thought I’d try and put together a rough version of events that could explain why we would be familiar with him. At some point I expect to get a full account of his backstory but in the meantime this is the best version I could put together about what might have happened to him). Please treat this more as some well thought through speculation than as a prediction. At least I hope you enjoy the process of contracting a backstory.
I’ll start with a question about Hamura’s staff, What is it and what could be its significance. Before we got a close up of the weapon I expected it to be a trident or trishula which is the traditional description of a three pronged spear. Sure enough the weapon did have three prongs but it hardly satisfied as a ferocious weapon that I would expect Hamura to carry. Instead we got something that looked more like this:
You must be registered for see images
So what exactly is Hamura wielding? To answer that question I think it’s worth exploring how the old gods and Buddhas manifest themselves in different incarnations, what is referred to as Transmigration.
Storytellers through the ages would use the essence of the same characters again and again to explain fundamental truths. In different legends with different characters, you would recognise the spirits of certain gods that remained true despite their form changing between stories. Often gods would recur in the same role, hero, villain, redeemer, saviour so on and so forth. Vishnu was recognized by scholars to have hundreds of incarnations through collected works where he would manifest himself as different individuals (reincarnations) or creatures (avatars).
Vishnu was the god of order that kept the Universe working while another god, somebody like Shiva or Shesha would act as the destroyer god who burnt things down so that new things could be built. Some gods were clearly more welcome than others (nobody welcomes natural disasters) but it was recognized that in life all gods had their place (even the ones that ended it so that it could be started anew).
Often you would find similarities between gods that served the same function across continents in their name, appearance, weaponry or teachings. Sheesha was a Snake god (a thousand headed snake) that completed the cycle of life with Vishnu. He also manifested himself as a man with a snake and a trident, like Shiva in India or Seishi in Japan. This statue outside the shrine where Madara and Hashirama first made peace bears a strong resemblance to Seishi (god of knowledge and power):
You must be registered for see images
At the same time he could also very easily be mistaken for Shiva (god of knowledge and destruction) who is essentially the same god on a different continent:
You must be registered for see images
Transmigrating gods are said to reincarnate across the generations but they usually serve the same roles despite changing their skin. You can build an impression of certain characters in the Narutoverse by the real world gods that they pay homage to.
Hagoromo, for instance, pays homage to a series of gods who are all recognized to be the same god in different manifestations. Hagoromo’s philosophy (see Ninshuu -
You must be registered for see links
) takes after the teachings of a variety of gods including Amida. Amida despite having achieved enlightenment keeps a watchful eye out for mortals that have not. Amida is said to live in the Western paradise (also known as the Pure Land in Pure Land Buddhism of which Amida is the chief buddha/god ). Amida has much in common with Vishnu who is depicted in almost the same manner (sitting cross legged on a Lotus) and the two could be said to be one and the same.
Pure Land:
You must be registered for see images
Painting of Amida (NB sat on a Lotus)
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Vishnu’s avatar (animal familiar / spirit) is Garuda a winged god. Garuda can manifest himself as a Hawk or various other birds of prey. In this form Garuda serves as the mount (ride) for Vishnu and other gods like Indra. In his purest form Garuda is displayed as a giant man bird. Garuda blazes almost as bright as the sun (he is recognized as being red) and he is so large that he can block it out. Garuda is recognized as a manifestation of both Amida and Vishnu. It is not accidental that Hagoromo has many of Garuda / Amida / Vishnu’s characteristics and parallels to their backstories.
Hagoromo:
You must be registered for see images
Garuda:
You must be registered for see images
Real life depiction
You must be registered for see images
What is most interesting to me is how Sasuke is the one who displays the greater part of the Hagoromo’s legacy and the gods that he pays homage to. Sasuke is the one who rides a hawk:
You must be registered for see images
… a hawk that was shown with Rinnegan Eyes in one panel ( I don’t think it was an accident):
You must be registered for see images
Indra (real world) is also known to ride Garuda (pimpin on ma pidgeon):
You must be registered for see images
Sasuke inherited the power of the Tengu. The Tengu is a manifestation of Garuda’s (Japanese Karura (Garuda) is the god that the Tengu are modeled on) power:
You must be registered for see images
Sasuke even transforms himself into a Hawk in order to “kill” Orochimaru (Garuda’s (the Hawk’s) eternal enemy are the Naga (the Snakes)):
You must be registered for see images
You must be registered for see images
Sasuke even recreates certain poses that stand out as homages to certain gods that are manifestations of Vishnu. Krishna is an incarnation of Vishnu, his name means dark (like Vishnu’s skin after swallowing the poison of the world – see Halahala above) and he is most often shown playing a flute:
Krishna (note also the Halo known as a Karura Enka an homage to Garuda):
You must be registered for see images
Sasuke (note the halo is translated into a hat):
You must be registered for see images
See also a statue of Krishna, again with a Karura Enka, in the Fire Temple where Deidara hides out (one of Deidara’s Techniques was C4 Garuda… he was clearly a believer):
You must be registered for see images
What about Hamura? Hamura is unlikely to be addressed before the Manga closes on Shippuden in a couple of weeks time. However I think that Kishi has planted numerous hints that might explain what happened to Hamura and how his character will be developed.
Hamura’s weapon is not a weapon at all. I tried to find something, anything, that had any kind of parallel to Hamura’s staff. Hagoromo’s staff is a weapon. It is a special staff carried by monks to scare off snakes and to tackle robbers while they walk between villages during pilgrimages (there is even a martial art dedicated to this staff) called a Shakujo:
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Hamura’s staff is not a trident (like Shiva or Seishi) but it is an implement that is carried by one of their incarnations, a host of Sheesha, called Balarama. Balarama is the brother to Krishna. Krishna and Balarama were born after Vishnu impregnated their mother, Devaki (although they were then transferred to a Surrogate called Rohini), with two hairs, one dark (Krishna) and the other light ( Balarama). This is one of the original stories about the relationship between Yin and Yang. Balarama is notable for carrying a plough or rake and he looks like this:
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I think that Balarama’s plough was translated by Kishi into an ornamental rake as used in the preparation of traditional rock gardens – the three prongs pay homage to his other incarnations who mostly carry tridents:
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Balarama is an incarnation of Shesha (the Naga or Snake god who also takes shape as Shiva and Seishi). In one story about Balarama, he loses sight of his brother during a battle and transforms himself into the Great White Snake (Shesha). The Great White Snake emerges from Balarama’s mouth and continues the fight. Balarama is essentially realized in the Manga in the character of Orochimaru…
Shesha:
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Great White Snake emerging from Balarama’s mouth:
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Orochimaru shedding the skin of a human host:
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I think that Hamura will eventually be revealed to be either Orochimaru or one of his previous hosts:
Orochimaru
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Sasuke and previous hosts in Orochimaru’s Dimension:
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We don’t know for certain what happened to Hamura after the battle with the Juubi but I think that Kishi has planted a few seeds for Hamura’s eventual reveal. First during Madara’s flashback to the Juubi we were shown a mysterious figure that appeared inside the mouth of the Juubi:
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I think that Hamura was eaten during the brothers' battle with the Juubi and that Orochimaru shed his skin (Hamura) in order to escape during the brother’s last battle (just like Balarama):
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Hamura like his brother should be immortal but I think that the Snake spirit that inhabited him is not necessarily Hamura’s true identity. Instead I think that Hamura’s Soul was captured by his mother, the Demon. Hamura’s soul can be summoned through one of the relics of the Uzumaki clan, that is stored under a monument to the Demon:
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I think that the Shinigami is known as the Dead Demon Seal because Hamura helped defeat his mother aka the Juubi aka the Demon and helped to seal her:
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When the Shinigami was summoned in order to seal Orochimaru, I think that the battle was much more personal than I or anyone else appreciated at the time:
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What’s more, I think we have been shown where Hamura’s soul resides. In the Lava Realm of Kaguya’s dimensions there was a very distinctive castle on a volcano that pays homage to a real world temple in Thailand. Wat Arun is a temple dedicated to Aruna, who is Garuda’s older brother. While Garuda is famous for his unquenchable hunger for eating snakes, Aruna is much more neutral on the serpents. Aruna cursed their mother (Vinata – think Hinata with a V) to serve the snakes as punishment for hatching him prematurely (robbing him of his full potential – Garuda shines much brighter than his brother). Here is the teaser temple in Kaguya’s dimension:
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Here is Wat Arun:
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Incidentally Wat Arun was built by King Rama II. Balarama simply translates as Mighty Rama. Aruna and Rama could be considered manifestations of the same god. Wat Arun was probably as much of a vanity project (celebrating Rama) as a celebration of Aruna.
This battle between Hawk and Snake, Yin (Vishnu / Krishna / Garuda) and Yang (Shesha / Balarama / Aruna) is often referred to symbolically like Obito’s question about Sasuke's future:
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Obito, while struggling with the Juubi, displayed features of both. When he first absorbed the Juubi, Obito became a snake:
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Later when Obito stabilized his Jinchuuriki form he shed scales and grew some feathers (his ten tails):
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They were not described as feathers but Itachi shed the same:
Thanks. They don't take too long to write. The thing that takes longest is getting the pictures that show the reasoning. I just wanted to get all my thoughts down on one thread before the big finale. I think Kishi has set up a lot of material for a part III. If he needs any ideas he's welcome to borrow some but I think he's more sophisticated than a lot of people give him credit for. Hopefully I'm not beating a dead horse.
@Dragonor - still getting there. Ive got a couple more ideas I wanted to develop first.
Here's part 1 about some symbolism regarding Hamura. I've covered most of this before so apologies if you've read chunks of it already. I've expanded on some interesting points and this serves as context for part 2 on the Uzumaki / Hyuuga. I don't want to annoy anyone with endless new threads so I'll keep the theories on the same theme contained here.
Hamura’s Avatar
We know very little about Hamura but I thought I’d try and put together a rough version of events that could explain why we would be familiar with him. At some point I expect to get a full account of his backstory but in the meantime this is the best version I could put together about what might have happened to him). Please treat this more as some well thought through speculation than as a prediction. At least I hope you enjoy the process of contracting a backstory.
I’ll start with a question about Hamura’s staff, What is it and what could be its significance. Before we got a close up of the weapon I expected it to be a trident or trishula which is the traditional description of a three pronged spear. Sure enough the weapon did have three prongs but it hardly satisfied as a ferocious weapon that I would expect Hamura to carry. Instead we got something that looked more like this:
You must be registered for see images
So what exactly is Hamura wielding? To answer that question I think it’s worth exploring how the old gods and Buddhas manifest themselves in different incarnations, what is referred to as Transmigration.
Storytellers through the ages would use the essence of the same characters again and again to explain fundamental truths. In different legends with different characters, you would recognise the spirits of certain gods that remained true despite their form changing between stories. Often gods would recur in the same role, hero, villain, redeemer, saviour so on and so forth. Vishnu was recognized by scholars to have hundreds of incarnations through collected works where he would manifest himself as different individuals (reincarnations) or creatures (avatars).
Vishnu was the god of order that kept the Universe working while another god, somebody like Shiva or Shesha would act as the destroyer god who burnt things down so that new things could be built. Some gods were clearly more welcome than others (nobody welcomes natural disasters) but it was recognized that in life all gods had their place (even the ones that ended it so that it could be started anew).
Often you would find similarities between gods that served the same function across continents in their name, appearance, weaponry or teachings. Sheesha was a Snake god (a thousand headed snake) that completed the cycle of life with Vishnu. He also manifested himself as a man with a snake and a trident, like Shiva in India or Seishi in Japan. This statue outside the shrine where Madara and Hashirama first made peace bears a strong resemblance to Seishi (god of knowledge and power):
You must be registered for see images
At the same time he could also very easily be mistaken for Shiva (god of knowledge and destruction) who is essentially the same god on a different continent:
You must be registered for see images
Transmigrating gods are said to reincarnate across the generations but they usually serve the same roles despite changing their skin. You can build an impression of certain characters in the Narutoverse by the real world gods that they pay homage to.
Hagoromo, for instance, pays homage to a series of gods who are all recognized to be the same god in different manifestations. Hagoromo’s philosophy (see Ninshuu -
You must be registered for see links
) takes after the teachings of a variety of gods including Amida. Amida despite having achieved enlightenment keeps a watchful eye out for mortals that have not. Amida is said to live in the Western paradise (also known as the Pure Land in Pure Land Buddhism of which Amida is the chief buddha/god ). Amida has much in common with Vishnu who is depicted in almost the same manner (sitting cross legged on a Lotus) and the two could be said to be one and the same.
Pure Land:
You must be registered for see images
Painting of Amida (NB sat on a Lotus)
You must be registered for see images
Vishnu’s avatar (animal familiar / spirit) is Garuda a winged god. Garuda can manifest himself as a Hawk or various other birds of prey. In this form Garuda serves as the mount (ride) for Vishnu and other gods like Indra. In his purest form Garuda is displayed as a giant man bird. Garuda blazes almost as bright as the sun (he is recognized as being red) and he is so large that he can block it out. Garuda is recognized as a manifestation of both Amida and Vishnu. It is not accidental that Hagoromo has many of Garuda / Amida / Vishnu’s characteristics and parallels to their backstories.
Hagoromo:
You must be registered for see images
Garuda:
You must be registered for see images
Real life depiction
You must be registered for see images
What is most interesting to me is how Sasuke is the one who displays the greater part of the Hagoromo’s legacy and the gods that he pays homage to. Sasuke is the one who rides a hawk:
You must be registered for see images
… a hawk that was shown with Rinnegan Eyes in one panel ( I don’t think it was an accident):
You must be registered for see images
Indra (real world) is also known to ride Garuda (pimpin on ma pidgeon):
You must be registered for see images
Sasuke inherited the power of the Tengu. The Tengu is a manifestation of Garuda’s (Japanese Karura (Garuda) is the god that the Tengu are modeled on) power:
You must be registered for see images
Sasuke even transforms himself into a Hawk in order to “kill” Orochimaru (Garuda’s (the Hawk’s) eternal enemy are the Naga (the Snakes)):
You must be registered for see images
You must be registered for see images
Sasuke even recreates certain poses that stand out as homages to certain gods that are manifestations of Vishnu. Krishna is an incarnation of Vishnu, his name means dark (like Vishnu’s skin after swallowing the poison of the world – see Halahala above) and he is most often shown playing a flute:
Krishna (note also the Halo known as a Karura Enka an homage to Garuda):
You must be registered for see images
Sasuke (note the halo is translated into a hat):
You must be registered for see images
See also a statue of Krishna, again with a Karura Enka, in the Fire Temple where Deidara hides out (one of Deidara’s Techniques was C4 Garuda… he was clearly a believer):
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What about Hamura? Hamura is unlikely to be addressed before the Manga closes on Shippuden in a couple of weeks time. However I think that Kishi has planted numerous hints that might explain what happened to Hamura and how his character will be developed.
Hamura’s weapon is not a weapon at all. I tried to find something, anything, that had any kind of parallel to Hamura’s staff. Hagoromo’s staff is a weapon. It is a special staff carried by monks to scare off snakes and to tackle robbers while they walk between villages during pilgrimages (there is even a martial art dedicated to this staff) called a Shakujo:
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Hamura’s staff is not a trident (like Shiva or Seishi) but it is an implement that is carried by one of their incarnations, a host of Sheesha, called Balarama. Balarama is the brother to Krishna. Krishna and Balarama were born after Vishnu impregnated their mother, Devaki (although they were then transferred to a Surrogate called Rohini), with two hairs, one dark (Krishna) and the other light ( Balarama). This is one of the original stories about the relationship between Yin and Yang. Balarama is notable for carrying a plough or rake and he looks like this:
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I think that Balarama’s plough was translated by Kishi into an ornamental rake as used in the preparation of traditional rock gardens – the three prongs pay homage to his other incarnations who mostly carry tridents:
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Balarama is an incarnation of Shesha (the Naga or Snake god who also takes shape as Shiva and Seishi). In one story about Balarama, he loses sight of his brother during a battle and transforms himself into the Great White Snake (Shesha). The Great White Snake emerges from Balarama’s mouth and continues the fight. Balarama is essentially realized in the Manga in the character of Orochimaru…
Shesha:
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Great White Snake emerging from Balarama’s mouth:
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Orochimaru shedding the skin of a human host:
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I think that Hamura will eventually be revealed to be either Orochimaru or one of his previous hosts:
Orochimaru
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Sasuke and previous hosts in Orochimaru’s Dimension:
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We don’t know for certain what happened to Hamura after the battle with the Juubi but I think that Kishi has planted a few seeds for Hamura’s eventual reveal. First during Madara’s flashback to the Juubi we were shown a mysterious figure that appeared inside the mouth of the Juubi:
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I think that Hamura was eaten during the brothers' battle with the Juubi and that Orochimaru shed his skin (Hamura) in order to escape during the brother’s last battle (just like Balarama):
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Hamura like his brother should be immortal but I think that the Snake spirit that inhabited him is not necessarily Hamura’s true identity. Instead I think that Hamura’s Soul was captured by his mother, the Demon. Hamura’s soul can be summoned through one of the relics of the Uzumaki clan, that is stored under a monument to the Demon:
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I think that the Shinigami is known as the Dead Demon Seal because Hamura helped defeat his mother aka the Juubi aka the Demon and helped to seal her:
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When the Shinigami was summoned in order to seal Orochimaru, I think that the battle was much more personal than I or anyone else appreciated at the time:
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What’s more, I think we have been shown where Hamura’s soul resides. In the Lava Realm of Kaguya’s dimensions there was a very distinctive castle on a volcano that pays homage to a real world temple in Thailand. Wat Arun is a temple dedicated to Aruna, who is Garuda’s older brother. While Garuda is famous for his unquenchable hunger for eating snakes, Aruna is much more neutral on the serpents. Aruna cursed their mother (Vinata – think Hinata with a V) to serve the snakes as punishment for hatching him prematurely (robbing him of his full potential – Garuda shines much brighter than his brother). Here is the teaser temple in Kaguya’s dimension:
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Here is Wat Arun:
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Incidentally Wat Arun was built by King Rama II. Balarama simply translates as Mighty Rama. Aruna and Rama could be considered manifestations of the same god. Wat Arun was probably as much of a vanity project (celebrating Rama) as a celebration of Aruna.
This battle between Hawk and Snake, Yin (Vishnu / Krishna / Garuda) and Yang (Shesha / Balarama / Aruna) is often referred to symbolically like Obito’s question about Sasuke's future:
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Obito, while struggling with the Juubi, displayed features of both. When he first absorbed the Juubi, Obito became a snake:
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Later when Obito stabilized his Jinchuuriki form he shed scales and grew some feathers (his ten tails):
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They were not described as feathers but Itachi shed the same:
Again great and deep research in history + mythology. I can only wish that this will happen. I am hyped for a orochimaru reveal...and I am also thinking there is part 3. Shockin end? Maybe the step where hamura shines.
To make him resemble Oro is likely, I like that idea. Please keep it up bro.
Now, was Hamura taken over by Orochimaru or were Hamura and Orochimaru one and the same ? I really didn't understand how it worked cause it's confusing. Regardless, here are some of my thoughts on Black Zetsu.
Black Zetsu's real identity :-
It all started with TBY's theory on Madara's comeback being similar to Black Zetsu :
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While his theory makes complete sense, in my opinion he was wrong about Kaguya being the Juubi because :-
1) During the sealing process, the component parts of the Juubi separated. Kaguya was a component part of the Juubi.
This is clear, and you can see that actually the 10-th biju, the rabbit, did escape the mazou just like the others. you can see that unlike the other biju who exactly know what is happening, he is a bit surprised. Then, he did not follow the other biju but stay up and watching until he spit Madara. here is my second interpretation of the page.
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1. The Rabbit is out just like the other biju. Unlike the 9 bijus, he stay on his own
2. The Rabbit notice something inside him
3. He spit the thing inside him out.
4. Here, there is something very interesting. Following panel 3, we could say that it was Madara continuing to fall, but I think it is not Madara falling. If we compare the lines I circled in green, Madara was falling in panel 3 as the Rabbit spit him out. The line there are thin and represent really a body falling. On panel 4, there is no line of falling, but a continuous thick beam that has the same color as the Rabbit. This tells me the Rabbit transferred himself inside Madara after he spit him out. So basically, the Rabbit first spit Madara (3) then transfer himself into Madara (4). Madara's movement and the Rabbit transfer can be distinguished by the difference in lines from (3) to(4).
5. Madara is laying down, and I believed he is posed by the Rabbit, and the Rabbit was also summoned in the real world.
Now Compare Black Zetsu and Madara. There is some thing there in Madara's case which has not been shown in Black Zetsu's case.
And that missing link is :-
Madara Himself !
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Excuse my outburst Lol, But what I mean is that in order For Kaguya to escape, A Body , a pre-existing medium was required.
In the second case, it was Madara.
In the first case, in Black Zetsu's birth, who was the medium ?
Well, we need to go back to Rabbit Teth posting this.
To this picture showing someone being eaten by the Juubi :-
We don’t know for certain what happened to Hamura after the battle with the Juubi but I think that Kishi has planted a few seeds for Hamura’s eventual reveal. First during Madara’s flashback to the Juubi we were shown a mysterious figure that appeared inside the mouth of the Juubi:
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I think that Hamura was eaten during the brothers' battle with the Juubi.
Again great and deep research in history + mythology. I can only wish that this will happen. I am hyped for a orochimaru reveal...and I am also thinking there is part 3. Shockin end? Maybe the step where hamura shines.
To make him resemble Oro is likely, I like that idea. Please keep it up bro.
Bad guys always keep their cards to their chest until they are in a position to realise them. In other words I'm not sure we'll know until Oro reveals himself to be evil. Speculating based on the story of the Naga, I can think of two broad motivations. First, Oro might want to undo humanity so that the Snakes can inherit the kingdom. In the myths the Naga rule the Earth before mankind and get kicked underground as soon as Garuda reaches maturity. Second, Oro might need a Human body in order to evolve himself to the point where he can ascend. In a couple of the Naga stories, the snakes are forbidden from reaching heaven unless they become humans first. That's just blind speculation though.
On the second question, that's something I'll try and address in the next theory section.
Now, was Hamura taken over by Orochimaru or were Hamura and Orochimaru one and the same ? I really didn't understand how it worked cause it's confusing. Regardless, here are some of my thoughts on Black Zetsu.
Black Zetsu's real identity :-
It all started with TBY's theory on Madara's comeback being similar to Black Zetsu :
You must be registered for see links
While his theory makes complete sense, in my opinion he was wrong about Kaguya being the Juubi because :-
1) During the sealing process, the component parts of the Juubi separated. Kaguya was a component part of the Juubi.
You raise a lot of interesting points… too many for me to address in one post. I'll need some time to think about them all.
In the meantime I can only tell you what I thought about BZ, the thing that bothered me about him is that he had no intention of doing anything for himself he just wanted to revive his mother (as if she was the big bad). As far as bad guys go that is one of the worst motivations for a final villain I’ve ever seen.
BZ spent the fight gurning:
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or cajoling the mindless Kaguya into establishing the conditions for BZ to use Kekkai Moura to do … something (?).
Meanwhile a pretty big hint was given that Kaguya is not evil at all and perhaps never has been… something must have happened to her, as Hagoromo puts it, we just don’t know what …yet:
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I wouldn’t have minded too much except that BZ is such a mysterious character and he appears to be linked to so many interesting unexplained events like the Ryuchido massacre:
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and the demonic figure that haunted Sasuke:
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I’m inclined to think that BZ isn’t the Demon and never was. That’s one of the reasons I’ve put together theories on him being Hamura’s staff or Orochimaru’s venom. BZ strikes me as some kind of inanimate object brought to life that doesn’t appreciate his own purpose.
If BZ were Hamura then I’d have wanted to see more character development… some backstory, an explanation of why Hamura was so dedicated to his evil mother etc.etc and then for his mother to have been really evil. Instead we’ve gotten a series of clues hinting that Kaguya was not herself and a big empty space on the Hamura front. This is where Draxus is right in that speculation and theory turns into fanfiction. If there is a part three then hopefully some of those questions will be addressed.
Regardless, here are some of my thoughts on Black Zetsu.
