[Theory] The Demon

Rabbit Teth · Oct 3, 2014

In the prophecy of Gamamaru, the destined would lead the world either to revolution or destruction. Sasuke and Naruto currently share the legacy of the sage but it seems pretty clear from the outside which child of destiny corresponds to which outcome. Sasuke might believe that he is the one to overturn the morally bankrupt system of the ninja nations but his medicine is not the cure. Sasuke’s solution is leading him down exactly the same path as the succession of villains before him. Sasuke’s vision has been warped from the start and if it is allowed to take root then it could spell the disaster foreseen in the prophecy. Sasuke without realizing it, is fulfilling the dream of the Demon to find a new vessel.

In this theory I’m goint to expand on some ideas I’ve developed elsewhere. Despite writing lots of theories in the past this is strangely the first one I have ever written on Sasuke. Now that we are at the Valley of the End, I thought I’d put down how Dr Snakes is on his way to becoming the Darkness (English anagrams… really Kishi? … I blame the translators). This is a mix of old ideas and new, in case any of it is accurate, be warned of potential spoilers.

The Need for Change

Madara and Hashirama were the revolutionaries of their day. Together they built a dream that was realized in the Hidden Leaf. It all started with skimming rocks to the other side of the river … at the Valley of the End… which is where we find the protagonists now ready to fight with small planetoids. We all know what Naruto goals are but Sasuke’s are much more complex. He thinks that he has found a new solution to end the cycle of violence and hatred. But before he can realise his dream he believes that it is necessary to kill both the Hokages that have presided over the corrupt old system and the Bijuu whose chakra has wrought such destruction over the ages.

You can hardly blame Sasuke for thinking that the old system was broken and needed replacing. Through his travels Sasuke has uncovered some dubious activities sanctioned by the old guard that has led to his own personal tragedy. Sasuke hasn’t fogiven Hiruzen for sanctioning the massacre of his clan:

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…and the stain on his brother’s reputation:

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While the Bijuu have long been regarded as a natural disaster striking in times when hatred has gone unchecked:

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… in turn causing war between the nations:

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Sasuke’s vision of what it takes to be a good Hokage is a natural progression of the systems attempted by those who’ve gone before him. Hashirama and Madara together overturned the order of their day to set up the Hidden Village system of governance. Before their revolution there was endless war between the ninja tribes:

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… the Bijuu roamed the wastes as natural disasters waiting to wreak havoc:

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and few ninja lived to old age as children were sent to fight battles on behalf of their clans:

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Hashirama and Madara brought order to this chaotic world. They organised tribes into the first Hidden Village and when others saw its success they followed this model:

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But the Hidden Villages were ill equipped to tackle the recurring problem of the Bijuu. Hashirama with his Mokuton was able to capture these beasts easily enough but other nations envied this power and Konoha was in no position to store the collection of malevolent chakra. Hashirama resolved to donate for free (though his brother insisted on a price) bijuu to each of the other Hidden Villages who had not been able to capture one of their own:
Gokage Conference

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This balance of power was a progression of the Sage’s solution, which had been to simply scatter the beasts across the lands and hope that they didn’t cause too much trouble:
Hagoromo

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Hashirama

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While a Balance of Power was a workable solution it did not account for forces that did not want peace. Black Zetsu and his various allies and vassals over the years attempted to undermine the uneasy truce to write a history of violence and hatred in order that his mother (not Kaguya although she was part of it) could be reawakened:

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Indra was the first succumb to BZ’s machinations. A simple adjustment to the Naka Shrine tablet and both Indra and his heirs, the Uchiha clan, devoted themselves to war and Ninjutsu (a martial art rather than one of peace and self defense like Ninshuu):

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Hashirama’s solution did not last. Black Zetsu through his minions set about unstitching the uneasy truces established through Hashirama’s hard work. First Iwa:

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then Kiri:

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Kumo:

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and Suna:

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…all instigated and fell prey to various plots to breach the peace.

Konoha was not entirely innocent in these wars either. Behind the scenes shady organisations took root and spread corrupted ideals. One plot between the Foundation and Hanzo is what destablised Amegakure and turned Akatsuki from a peace movement under Yahiko into one devoted to establishing a tyranny under Pain. Pain abandoned all hope of peaceful coexistence and set about collecting the Bijuu in order to start a reign of terror that might beat the Hidden Villages into submission and reliance on Akatsuki’s protection:

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Sasuke’s revolution continues a fine tradition of attempts to fix the Ninja World born in blood. Kaguya was the first, her tyranny was the result of an attempt to bring peace, but Sasuke will probably be the Last:

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Clean Slate

Sasuke started off with two ambitions … to revive his clan and to kill a certain man:

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Sasuke believed that when he achieved those ambitions he might be able to start afresh. Time passed and he killed that certain man:

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His dream of reviving his clan warped into one of cleansing Konoha:

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Madara shared much the same vision as Sasuke. Madara turned his pain into the Moon’s Eye Plan in which all would be put into an endless perfect dream, cleansed of what he considered evil chakra:

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Sasuke believes that with the Bijuu eliminated the world will have nothing to fight over and that the danger of the Juubi’s rebirth might end once and for all:

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…but Sasuke doesn’t feel it is enough to just eliminate the Bijuu, Sasuke also considers it necessary to wipe out the current generation of Hokage. Given how complicit the Kage have been in activities like the massacre of his own clan this is understandable. :

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Sasuke more than anything wants a fresh start:

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There is a certain logic to Sasuke’s new ambition. By taking on the world’s darkness the Ninja Nations would indeed likely unite against him. After all Madara’s plan inspired the Hidden Villages to come together:

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What Sasuke doesn’t account for is that he is likely the latest in a long line of stooges, attempting to reinvent the wheel by bringing peace through questionable activities that only serve to perpetuate the cycle of hatred, create the conditions necessary for the revival of the Demon and could result in the prophesied destruction.

Empty Vessel

Sasuke’s potential has been evident to all from a very young age. Sasuke was destined for greatness, not just as a member of a genius clan but as the host to Indra. Unfortunately for Sasuke, his potential has attracted predators like flies to shit. These predators recognized that Sasuke could surpass Itachi, surpass Nagato and even surpass Madara:
Itachi

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Nagato

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Madara

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All of these figures and others formed a line of stooges for the plots of others.
Indra came first:

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Itachi massacred his own clan:

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…but he only did so under orders from Danzo and in the belief that he could rescue his brother:

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Danzo sabotaged efforts to peacefully prevent a revolt by the Uchiha

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...before ordering and partaking in their elimination:

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He was also involved in the corruption of Nagato:

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… but Danzo was one of Orochimaru’s guinea pigs:

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Nagato turned Akatsuki into a terrorist outfit with the goal of capturing the Bijuu:

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…but Nagato too had been targeted at a young age to bear the Rinnegan until Madara could be revived before a joint (?) operation led to him submitting to Tobi:

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Obito set in motion the chain of events that led to the Uchiha massacre (the attack of the nine tailed fox), helped Itachi and Danzo kill his own clan and controlled Akatsuki from the shadows:

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…but he too was the victim of a conspiracy to corrupt him to another’s will:

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Madara believed that he had orchestrated all of the above by leaving his will to ready the world for his Moon’s Eye Plan:

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… but even Madara was deluded into serving another’s plans:

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Even Kaguya was not altogether there and seems to have undergone a sudden unexplained character change in mid life that Hagoromo is puzzled by:

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Behind all of them there is the whisper of an as yet unrevealed big bad…the Demon.

The Demon

A title keeps on popping up again and again to describe certain characters who possess unnatural abilities. The moniker, the Devil or Demon, attaches itself to a very select group of individuals who appear to lose their souls. The first such person to be given this mantle is Kaguya:

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After Hagoromo splits his mother / the Juubi’s chakra, this name is inherited by Kurama… the Nine Tailed Demon Fox

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Many years later the mantle is taken on by Zabuza:

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and two of his prodigies:
Mangetsu

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…and Suigetsu

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There is very little to connect these figures, one of them is not even human. Nonetheless I suspect that the name reflects their inheritance of a certain chakra that belongs to the original bad guy… the Demon himself.

Mangetsu and Suigetsu both share the name the Second Coming of the Demon as pupils of Zabuza whose trademark was his Demon Cloak which we have seen twice (I’m hoping Suigetsu has the technique as well)…
On the Great Naruto Bridge

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…and during this most recent war:

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This chakra cloak bears striking resemblance to what appears to have sent Juugo’s clan insane near Ryuchido (where the snakes live):

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It also has the trademark triple spiral of a shrine dedicated to who I assume to be Kaguya (Kaguya had three eyes, had the same long hair, collected souls like the masks in flames under the hair through IT…):

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It appears that Zabuza, Suigetsu, Mangetsu and Kaguya might all be connected to the Demon and the Demon to the Snakes. Zabuza and Mangetsu ended up part of Kabuto's Edo Army while Suigetsu was a member of Team Hebi (Snake) and was one of Orochimaru's guinea pigs.

Kaguya too has a connection to the snakes albeit a very loose one. When Sasuke and Itachi fall under Kabuto’s Snake Genjutsu they both witness a vision of death and adopt a distinctive pose:
Orochimaru's Vision of Death genjutsu:

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Itachi and Sasuke under the effects of Kabuto

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This is the same pose that Kaguya strikes in a couple of panels.
About to destroy the world – Kekkai Moura

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Raining Gudoudama on warring / worshipping tribal ninjas (not so holy power):

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Kaguya’s Tenpenchii

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The third connection is one between Orochimaru and Kaguya that involves the behavior of White Zetsu. White Zetsu are the souls of those captured by Infinite Tsukiyomi in the past. It is striking how even though White Zetsu have been modified to be like Hashirama, they still behave in the same way as snakes in Orochimaru’s personal dimension where he performs his Transmigration Ritual:
White Zetsu

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Snakes

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When Obito is transforming into the Juubi Jinchuuriki it is even remarked how his body (in particular his White Zetsu half) takes on the appearance of a Snake:

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The fourth connection is the between Orochimaru and Kurama. Kurama is described as the Embodiment of Hatred. He clearly inherited some of the Demon despite Hagoromo’s best efforts:

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Karin, whose main skill has always been as a sensor, remarks on how similar the chakra of the Kyuubi is to somebody else:

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While Karin could be talking about anybody (though her frame of reference is pretty small)... I’m going to go ahead and speculate that she meant Orochimaru. Notice how similar Orochimaru’s cursed seal is to the technique used by BZ to revive Kaguya and how similar both of them are to the chakra of the Nine Tailed Demon Fox Kurama…
Orochimaru:

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Kaguya:

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Kurama:

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When Naruto engages in a battle of wills with Kurama, you even get to see the souls that Kurama still has trapped within him from when he was part of the Juubi / the Demon Kaguya:

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Have you ever noticed how Kurama and Orochimaru have similar eyes:
Kurama

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Orochimaru

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…and when Orochimaru tempts his victims with his chakra it mirrors how Kurama has tempted Naruto over the years:
Orochimaru tempting Sasuke (keep track of the victim's left eye):

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Kurama tempting Naruto (…kuku):

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The spread of malice is also seen in how Kabuto is slowly taken over by Orochimaru's chakra:

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Kurama’s hatred has been overcome by Naruto but he still has the Demon’s venom inside him. Naruto almost gave into this chakra once but he was rescued before it could take over:

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…and again when he attempted to tame the Nine Tails under Killer B’s tutelage:

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Eventually, as Hagoromo puts it, Naruto was able to filter out the Demon’s venom and befriend the Embodiment of Hatred:

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The Temptation of Sasuke

Itachi was a little too successful in inspiring hatred in his brother. He had hoped that this hatred would make little Sasuke strong:

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While Sasuke did indeed become more than able to cling to life, he was all too ready to embrace the darkness:

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I suspect that the chain of events that led to the Uchiha Massacre were all orchestrated to create the conditions for a child to submit to the Demon. We have seen Orochimaru engineer countless tragedies that have ensnared the young and the gifted in his coils. Orochimaru has no sentimentality when it comes to dealing with war orphans and yet he has amassed many lost souls. Maybe he just has a special place in his heart for them:

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Typically, Orochimaru’s corruption follows a pattern. First a clan spirals into destruction without any clear explanation…Karin:

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The clan gets violent, consumed by hate… Juugo

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Next everyone dies and Orochimaru arrives to rescue the only surviving child … Kimimaro

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Then Orochimaru approaches the child and offers them power that they cannot hope to achieve otherwise:

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Eventually the child is sent to kill the one closest to them in order to break their will… Kabuto:

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Finally the child submits, bargaining away not just their body but their soul as well:

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Sasuke is not ready for the Demon until he had broken all bonds with the world and he has killed his closest friend:

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Sasuke has taken time to build his resolve to commit what he believes will grant him the power to undo the evil of the world - cutting his bonds with Naruto before he intends to kill him:

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Sasuke thinks that this final step will free him from the past:

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Unfortunately this is exactly what Orochimaru has been waiting for:

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Orochimaru’s plans for Sasuke never required the Cursed Seal… they just needed Sasuke to embrace the Darkness:

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By having Sasuke break his bonds once and for all (something he couldn’t do last time they met at the Valley of the End) Orochimaru can obtain the blank canvas that he can dye to suit his needs:
Blank Canvass

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Dye

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If Sasuke kills the Hokage then he will be fulfilling Orochimaru's goal of triggering Ninja War unlike any before it:

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Sasuke’s “revolution” is not the path to peace in the Ninja World, it is the potential dawning of its destruction:

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It is not a clean slate, it is the emptying of a vessel in anticipation of the arrival of the true Demon, the original Darkness.

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Reboryushon · Oct 3, 2014

Cool! Nice one OP.

It is interesting to see that Zabuza demon aura looks a lot like Kaguya Demon form aka the rabbit.

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Draxus · Oct 3, 2014

Nice fanfiction. Totally unable to take it seriously as a plausible theory though.

Chrisisaartist · Oct 3, 2014

Great, just gteat, thanks for your effort

I read all of it, it took me so much time haha

Rabbit Teth · Oct 3, 2014

Draxus said:
Nice fanfiction. Totally unable to take it seriously as a plausible theory though.

There's a bit of fanfiction in every theory and I've always thought Oro was a better bad guy than any of the other lot. I find it funny when people's only criticism is that the theory isn't plausible. This is a manga about magic ninjas in which the previous antagonist abducted a child to transplant his magic eyes into him while surviving in the dark attached to a magic beanstalk and tried to hypnotise everyone into a state of bliss by projecting an image of his eye off the moon. The bar is pretty low for plausibility in this manga and I think I've provided enough supporting material to show it's within the realm of the possible. But hey… thanks for reading.

Portuguesenojutsu said:
Cool! Nice one OP.

It is interesting to see that Zabuza demon aura looks a lot like Kaguya Demon form aka the rabbit.

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I totally agree. We're bound to meet the Rabbit Bijuu again at some point. As you can tell from my avatar I tend to think Snake trumps Rabbit in the big bad stakes.

Chrisisaartist said:
Great, just gteat, thanks for your effort

I read all of it, it took me so much time haha

Glad you enjoyed it. I'm pretty bad at cutting material out. Kishi puts in a lot of oblique references that continue running story threads and any of them might be important. I figure the story isn't complete until we find out what Oro's been up to and what's going to happen to the rest of Team Hebi / Taka + Kabuto.

minamoto · Oct 3, 2014

who is the demon??...and how mangetsu is realted to him

Draxus · Oct 3, 2014

Rabbit Teth said:
There's a bit of fanfiction in every theory and I've always thought Oro was a better bad guy than any of the other lot. I find it funny when people's only criticism is that the theory isn't plausible. This is a manga about magic ninjas in which the previous antagonist abducted a child to transplant his magic eyes into him while surviving in the dark attached to a magic beanstalk and tried to hypnotise everyone into a state of bliss by projecting an image of his eye off the moon. The bar is pretty low for plausibility in this manga and I think I've provided enough supporting material to show it's within the realm of the possible. But hey… thanks for reading.

I'm sorry, I thought the point of theory is to be plausible. Maybe you should look up the definition. You seem to think it's an exercise in creative writing. Yes many fantastic things happen in Naruto, but like every fantasy world there are rules. Furthermore you can also take into consideration the writer's intent, plot, style, and development of his characters. Now you bring in establish facts stated in the manga and you can used these to guess what may happen next in the plot or the truths behind unexplained things. When you miss any of those components and only draw a upon one or two of them, you're writing fanfiction and not seriously theorizing about the manga universe.

I can tell you took it as an insult, but it wasn't, just stating an opinion. Why post your "theories" if negetive opinions rub you the wrong way. A really theorist would look forward to dissenters as they are more interested in the correct answer, rather than their particular prediction being correct.

So please enlighten me. How should manga theories be judged exactly?

Rabbit Teth · Oct 3, 2014

Draxus said:
I'm sorry, I thought the point of theory is to be plausible. Maybe you should look up the definition. You seem to think it's an exercise in creative writing. Yes many fantastic things happen in Naruto, but like every fantasy world there are rules. Furthermore you can also take into consideration the writer's intent, plot, style, and development of his characters. Now you bring in establish facts stated in the manga and you can used these to guess what may happen next in the plot or the truths behind unexplained things. When you miss any of those components and only draw a upon one or two of them, you're writing fanfiction and not seriously theorizing about the manga universe.

I can tell you took it as an insult, but it wasn't, just stating an opinion. Why post your "theories" if negetive opinions rub you the wrong way. A really theorist would look forward to dissenters as they are more interested in the correct answer, rather than their particular prediction being correct.

So please enlighten me. How should manga theories be judged exactly?

Your critique is that I've written a fan fiction. A fan fiction is an exercise in creative writing not backed up by any supporting material but simply using established characters to build an expanded, non canon world. I've supported my theory as much as possible. If I was simply detailing what is apparent to all then there wouldn't be a theory. Your critique lacks any argument detailing where I am mistaken or where my theory does not hold together. Come back with a proper argument.

minamoto said:
who is the demon??...and how mangetsu is realted to him

Short question but long answer (I'll use this to expand on some points that I didn't have space to fit in the theory so apologies in advance for what was already too long a theory).

The Demon is a Keyser Söze type character (not unlike Tobidara) who operates from the shadows to orchestrate his own revival. In a lot of mythology across Asia Snakes are considered demons who cannot achieve enlightenment simply by virtue of their nature. Snake gods (who look an awful lot like Orochimaru) tend to be depicted as deathless demons seeking human hosts so that they can ascend to heaven. I’m thinking of a figure like Ananta-Sesha, (“Eternal Shesha") the world serpent with a thousand heads who looks a lot like Orochimaru in his White Snake form.

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I go into some of the imagery and religious symbolism behind Oro’s character in another stupidly long theory (I tend to write these when it rains and it can get very rainy where I live)…

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Essentially I think that Orochimaru is a false identity developed in order to infiltrate the Leaf. Oro is distinguished from every other character by his version of immortality which is a more perfect form of transmigration than that employed by Indra / Asura.

Mangetsu is only tangentially related to the Demon. A lot of Zabuza’s students took on the name but Zabuza was the original Demon in Kirigakure. I think that his Demon Shroud is something that is likely to have been given to him by Orochimaru. I base this idea on the coincidence of the Name together with the imagery of Orochimaru’s cursed seal and Orochimaru’s knowledge that extends far beyond even Madara’s. Essentially Zabuza fits a pattern of characters who have inexplicably gone crazy and attacked their village while exhibitin cursed seal symptoms (hatred / anger / horns / crazy eyes / black transformations etc. etc. …).

Zabuza attempted a coup before he left Kirigakure (kind of like what Fugaku did with the Uchiha clan and what the Kaguya clan attempted before being wiped out):

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At this point I think it's worth bringing Jiraiya and his mysterious warnings about Oro and two shady organisations involved in the corruption of a lot of characters detailed in the OP. Jiraiya spent a good chunk of his life tracking down Orochimaru:

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He also warned about Akatsuki:

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…and Root

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Orochimaru happened to be a member of both these organisations. I figure he is more likely to be the guy in the shadows, the Demon, than anybody…
Akatsuki

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Root

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KCMNaruto · Oct 4, 2014

Epic thread

Slifer · Oct 4, 2014

i have to admit this Thread is one of the best of narutobase

Rabbit Teth · Oct 4, 2014

KCMNaruto said:
Epic thread

Slifer said:
i have to admit this Thread is one of the best of narutobase

Thanks. I'm hoping to expand the thread partly because I couldn't fit everything into the original post (there's a limit on how many images you can link to) and partly because I want the thread to be about more than just Oro in case he isn't the Demon but just another of his tools (Hamura, the Shinju, some other unnamed force …).

I worry about falling into the fanboy trap of writing the same theory over and over again without anything new. I like Oro as a villain but he's not the only potential final villain. I figure I’ll try and contain my ideas on Oro here … at least until Oro either gets his wish or he crashes an burns once and for all. I figure this is Oro’s big opportunity so if he is going to reemerge as a big bad then we’ll find out one way or another soon. If anyone else has ideas on the Demon, I'd like to hear them. Please feel free to share any Oro or Demon related ideas or theories here. Any links to threads on the same general topic (the Demon) would be appreciated as well.

Anyway here are some ideas I wanted to develop further but didn't have space to include earlier.

Oro’s container

I figure that Oro is the opposite of a Jinchuuriki. A Jinchuuriki is a human attempting to contain a bijuu. I think that Oro is a Bijuu trying to take over a human.

Oro’s true form without a body has only been shown once

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He looks just like any other Bijuu in its pure chakra form except with more teeth and doesn’t have a body just one very long tail (if I’m going to call Oro a tailed beast I figure it’s best to describe a snake as one long tail rather than an elongated body even though there’s a difference). Ibiki puts it best when he says that Orochimaru isn’t human, he just wears human skin:

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I would speculate that the reason why Oro needs to swap bodies so often is that the chakra of a bijuu deteriorates the body of its container when it works in conflict with the Jinchuuriki:

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The “Malice” of the Demon’s chakra erodes the body when it is not syched to the Jinchuuriki:

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Peeling skin and boiling blood:

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There is always dangerous spillage unless the Jinchuuriki and the Bijuu work together in concert to combine their chakra perfectly:

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I think that Orochimaru has the same problem in reverse. His hosts always resist him because their feelings are never quite eliminated. When Oro fights Hiruzen his eyes well up not because Oro is sentimental but because the host’s feelings are leaking:

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Orochimaru even has to cut his host’s hand in order to regain control:

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and he passes the incident off as being tired:

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Kaguya as the first host to the demon displays the same problem, which would rule her out as being genuinely evil – I think she is a victim rather than a perpetrator:

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Sasuke’s effort to break his bonds is what makes him the ideal container for the Orochimaru:

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This is a battle between Ninshuu (represented by Naruto) – forging bonds:

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…and Ninjutsu (represented by Sasuke) – cutting them:

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Kurama

One story thread that I’d like to see addressed is the mystery of why Minato only sealed the Yang Chakra of Kurama inside Naruto. Jiraiya used to ponder the purpose behind this decision:

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For a very brief time it appeared that Yin Kurama might be evil:

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In the coming battle I’m hoping that we get to see whether Naruto acquires any new Yin powers as a result of his new bijuu chakra. He has had this chakra for a while but now that most of the Bijuu chakra is sealed by Sasuke we should get a better idea of whether Yin Chakra is the same beast as Yang Chakra, the fox that Naruto befriended.

If Sasuke performs a face turn it would be fun to see Naruto and Sasuke take on any third party villain that might reveal himself (ahem Orochimaru cough cough…) as two Jinchuriki to a complete Nine Tails… recreating the Yin Yang symbol before the complete Kurama Mode gets revealed:
Naruto / Sasuke

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Yin / Yang Kurama

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Comedic foreshadowing

Kishi has a habit of lulling us into a false sense of security regarding villains in the series.

Madara not being able to pee freely with Hashirama behind him (I found you weak point …):

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Tobi tormenting poor Deidara and playing dumb:

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I was trying to find some examples that might apply to the Demon / Oro. Sure enough both have their light moments:
The Demon as Sakura:

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Orochimaru light relief

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Hardly proof of Villainy but one of Kishi’s signature trends that I’ve always kind of enjoyed.

Slifer · Oct 4, 2014

More pls!

so much more!

Trea · Oct 5, 2014

Great read. I enjoyed it. I too think there is way too many references to demons and snakes for it to be coincidence. Personally I think Oro won't be thrilled with the way Sasuke's wind blows after the fight with Naruto and will seek to once again try to stop the friendship. We will probably see Oro emerge as a possible villain again at the end of the series and into the movie.

I'm also not sure about the rabbit. I thought it escaped the sealing and would come into play somehow but when I went back and looked again, I don't know. Also Juraiya was told that his student could start a revolution in the Shinobi world. When looking back over old chapters, the Great Toad Sage said he never thought both Juraiya's students would be the ones to lead a revolution, meaning Naruto and Nagato. Nagato is dead, so does that mean Naruto will start the Revolution?

It's possible that Naruto and Sasuke will join forces for the revolution as long as it doesn't involve killing the kages or the tailed beasts.

Rabbit Teth · Oct 5, 2014

Slifer said:
More pls! so much more!

I'm probably just digging a bigger and bigger hole for myself but I think I can crank a couple more out.

Trea said:
Great read. I enjoyed it. I too think there is way too many references to demons and snakes for it to be coincidence. Personally I think Oro won't be thrilled with the way Sasuke's wind blows after the fight with Naruto and will seek to once again try to stop the friendship. We will probably see Oro emerge as a possible villain again at the end of the series and into the movie.

I'm also not sure about the rabbit. I thought it escaped the sealing and would come into play somehow but when I went back and looked again, I don't know. Also Juraiya was told that his student could start a revolution in the Shinobi world. When looking back over old chapters, the Great Toad Sage said he never thought both Juraiya's students would be the ones to lead a revolution, meaning Naruto and Nagato. Nagato is dead, so does that mean Naruto will start the Revolution?

It's possible that Naruto and Sasuke will join forces for the revolution as long as it doesn't involve killing the kages or the tailed beasts.

Thanks. I still hold out hope for Sasuke too but I expect he'll have to make some tough choices before he comes round.

On the prophesy front, Gamamaru is reliably unreliable. He has trouble with names and faces and he's amended his prophesy so many times now that Jiraiya, Minato, Nagato and Naruto are all (/have all been) children of Prohesy (I worry I'll end up doing the same thing with these theories … you know, when Ramen Guy or Tobidara reveal their plans). I'd like to see whether the White Snake Sage has a prophesy as well. He has a crystal ball just like Gamamaru after all:

You must be registered for see images

As for the Hokage slot, much as I don't want a vacancy to appear, I can't help but feel like Tsunade will have a Matrix moment… Not like this…Not like this (well.. probably like this):

[video=youtube;gT3hO_5Qzlg]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gT3hO_5Qzlg[/video]

At least I hope that Kakashi gets a chance to redeem himself after his last run in with Orochimaru. If he's going to be Hokage then he needs to show he's grown a spine:

You must be registered for see images

Tsunade deserves better … an easy retirement, a big win at the casinos, a grand retirement ceremony ...

Draxus · Oct 5, 2014

Rabbit Teth said:
Your critique is that I've written a fan fiction. A fan fiction is an exercise in creative writing not backed up by any supporting material but simply using established characters to build an expanded, non canon world. I've supported my theory as much as possible. If I was simply detailing what is apparent to all then there wouldn't be a theory. Your critique lacks any argument detailing where I am mistaken or where my theory does not hold together. Come back with a proper argument.

You supported your theory with pictures that have nothing to do with each other and logic leaps with no hints whatsoever in the actual plot of the manga. This is exactly what you described as fan fiction. An interesting tale, that a lot of people like because they prefer Oro to be a FV, but it has 0% likely hood of actually happening in the manga. If you had any serious manga evidence I would counter it, but you don't, so it's pointless. It's like try to convince someone that unicorns don't exist, despite them knowing it's true because they have read about them in books and there's even a tv show about them.

Rabbit Teth · Oct 5, 2014

Draxus said:
You supported your theory with pictures that have nothing to do with each other and logic leaps with no hints whatsoever in the actual plot of the manga. This is exactly what you described as fan fiction. An interesting tale, that a lot of people like because they prefer Oro to be a FV, but it has 0% likely hood of actually happening in the manga. If you had any serious manga evidence I would counter it, but you don't, so it's pointless. It's like try to convince someone that unicorns don't exist, despite them knowing it's true because they have read about them in books and there's even a tv show about them.

If you’re going to dismiss a theory as having 0% chance of being accurate then the onus is on you to disprove it. I’ve set out a series of qualified observations to explain how a number of events in the manga might be connected. If you fail to appreciate the conceptual framework and how the theory can explain events and predict new developments then it bears no reflection on the quality of the theory. I can accept that you might disagree with my theory (I fully accept that I may be wrong) but I think you’re an idiot (or a troll) to mistake it for a fanfiction.

Theories are not proofs, they are explanations combined with predictions. To rate a theory at 0% you need to prove why it is wrong because you do not acknowledge that it has any chance of being correct. I think I’ve provided you with a good explanation and solid predictions. I may be wrong but I don’t think you are yet able to prove me wrong. If you disagree, then the invitation is still open for you to provide your own proof of why I’m wrong or indeed a rival explanation or prediction about the Demon.

Fanfictions are stories, this is a theory. You might not think it a very good one but you’ve hardly explained why. Your critique as it stands is nonsense.

Draxus · Oct 6, 2014

Rabbit Teth said:
If you’re going to dismiss a theory as having 0% chance of being accurate then the onus is on you to disprove it. I’ve set out a series of qualified observations to explain how a number of events in the manga might be connected. If you fail to appreciate the conceptual framework and how the theory can explain events and predict new developments then it bears no reflection on the quality of the theory. I can accept that you might disagree with my theory (I fully accept that I may be wrong) but I think you’re an idiot (or a troll) to mistake it for a fanfiction.

Theories are not proofs, they are explanations combined with predictions. To rate a theory at 0% you need to prove why it is wrong because you do not acknowledge that it has any chance of being correct. I think I’ve provided you with a good explanation and solid predictions. I may be wrong but I don’t think you are yet able to prove me wrong. If you disagree, then the invitation is still open for you to provide your own proof of why I’m wrong or indeed a rival explanation or prediction about the Demon.

Fanfictions are stories, this is a theory. You might not think it a very good one but you’ve hardly explained why. Your critique as it stands is nonsense.

So from this I understand you think there is a chance unicorns exist. Well... this conversation is done. LOL

Rabbit Teth · Oct 6, 2014

Draxus said:
So from this I understand you think there is a chance unicorns exist. Well... this conversation is done. LOL

Hmm how to engage a straw man argument…. I’ll go with head on.

When people first discovered dinosaur bones they called them dragons, when people first encountered large single horned animals (deer with a missing horn or rhinoceroses) they called them Unicorns. Science classifies things one way, men, who discover giant skulls with horns or animals that they don’t recognise, classify them another.

My argument is that the moniker of the Demon in the Narutoverse reflects the existence of a character who moves from host to host and body to body leaving a trail of destruction and victims who develop horns. You might argue that dragons don’t exist but that dinosaurs do. I’d argue they are one and the same.

UnknownJin · Oct 6, 2014

best thread i ever seen man... great theory, lets see what happens!

Draxus · Oct 6, 2014

Rabbit Teth said:
Hmm how to engage a straw man argument…. I’ll go with head on.

When people first discovered dinosaur bones they called them dragons, when people first encountered large single horned animals (deer with a missing horn or rhinoceroses) they called them Unicorns. Science classifies things one way, men, who discover giant skulls with horns or animals that they don’t recognise, classify them another.

My argument is that the moniker of the Demon in the Narutoverse reflects the existence of a character who moves from host to host and body to body leaving a trail of destruction and victims who develop horns. You might argue that dragons don’t exist but that dinosaurs do. I’d argue they are one and the same.

My comment clearly went over you heard (also your pointless examples are nonsensical unicorns and dragons never existed no matter how you wanna spin it)... I meant I can't prove a negative, so the burden of proof is still on you even if I say there is 0% likely hood you are correct.

I know your argument and it holds no relevance in the manga's plot at all. There is no mention of actual demons ever, and what you're referencing are pictures of Japanese oni that obviously influenced the artist, not a demon that hops from body to body. The funny part is the images aren't even actual things that happened in the NV, but character imaginings or symbolism. Simply put there is nothing for me to debate because this a story that only exists in your head.

[Theory] The Demon

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