[Discussion] Symbolism in Obito's Team Portrait/Juubi Takeover Analysis.

[Piratefish]

Be warned, the following segments may be hard to follow. My thought-processes can be accurately described as weird.



I didn't really like Obito following his big reveal. Sure, he was the most logical candidate, but was ANOTHER "Evil Naruto" REALLY the best antagonist Kishi could cook up, for the whole damn series?

That's been changing, slowly, since his introduction. The last chapter made me respect, even LIKE, Obito as a character in his own right. Also it was awesome, especially the art.

And here's why:

Spoiler

You must be registered for see images

The Juubi is attempting to take over. Since Obito absorbed it, they've been fighting on the mental plane for command of the body that now houses them both.

And Obito is losing, badly.

Already his mental projection of himself has lost an arm (his right arm, to be precise) and in the portrait his own face has been torn away.

I believe Obito's picture and his right arm symbolize himself. Everything he is. How he defines his own being.

And his own identity is the least important part of him. The easiest part for the Juubi to tear away, as it's the first thing to go.

"I am no one," indeed.

Spoiler

You must be registered for see images

Then Obito loses his left arm, and Kakashi leaves the picture.

Kakashi is his rival, his opponent, his obstacle to overcome.

Kakashi is everything he isn't, everything he wants to defeat and everything he wants to achieve. This is more important to him than even his own identity, but still nowere near enough to beat the Juubi.



Minato is the next to go, along with his entire upper body, and (most importantly) his head. Minato is his leader, and teacher. Minato symbolizes the mind, intelligence, calculation, reflection.

All things Obito developed under Madara, interestingly enough. Madara has certainly left his mark. But Obito's true, innermost nature isn't in the mind.



And all that's left is Rin. (And the groin area=)

Rin is emotions, instinct, gut feeling. Once upon a time she was love.

Now, Rin is the Cardinal Sin.

The reason the world does NOT deserve to be saved. The reason why it must be DESTROYED.

Rin is the innocent who did nothing wrong and could not be saved. The ultimate expression of the ROT permeating the ENTIRE Shinobi World.

Spoiler

You must be registered for see images

You must be registered for see images

And Rin is enough for Obito to overcome the Juubi. No tricks, no help, no excuses.



Which, if true, shows how Obito is like Naruto. The most important part of him is NOT his own identity (Kabuto), NOT his opponent or goal (Sasuke) and NOT his mind and the realm of the mental (Orochimaru).

It's what he feels. And what he feels is RAGE.

 

[mikeeozua]

Nice insight, was I one of the only few that actually enjoyed this moment?
*****

 

[The Akatsuki Knightz]

Be warned, the following segments may be hard to follow. My thought-processes can be accurately described as weird.



I didn't really like Obito following his big reveal. Sure, he was the most logical candidate, but was ANOTHER "Evil Naruto" REALLY the best antagonist Kishi could cook up. For the whole damn series?

That's been changing, slowly, since his introduction. The last chapter made me respect, even LIKE, Obito as a character in his own right. Also it was awesome, especially the art.

And here's why:

Spoiler

You must be registered for see images

The Juubi is attempting to take over. Since Obito absorbed it, they've been fighting on the mental plane for command of the body that now houses them both.

And Obito is losing, badly.

Already his mental projection of himself has lost an arm (his right arm, to be precise) and in the portrait his own face has been torn away.

I believe Obito's picture and his right arm symbolize himself. Everything he is. How he defines his own being.

And his own identity is the least important part of him. The easiest part for the Juubi to tear away, as it's the first thing to go.

"I am no one," indeed.

Spoiler

You must be registered for see images

Then Obito loses his left arm, and Kakashi leaves the picture.

Kakashi is his rival, his opponent, his obstacle to overcome.

Kakashi is everything he isn't, everything he wants to defeat, everything he wants to achieve.



Minato is the next to go, along with his entire upper body, and (most importantly) his head. Minato is his leader, and teacher. Minato symbolizes the mind, intelligence, calculation, reflection.

All things Obito developed under Madara, interestingly enough. Madara has certainly left his mark.



And all that's left is Rin. (And the groin area=)

Rin is emotions, instinct, gut feeling. Once upon a time she was love.

Now, Rin is the Cardinal Sin.

The reason the world does NOT deserve to be saved. The reason why it must be DESTROYED.

Rin is the innocent who did nothing wrong and could not be saved. The ultimate expression of the ROT permeating the ENTIRE Shinobi World.

Spoiler

You must be registered for see images

You must be registered for see images

And Rin is enough for Obito to overcome the Juubi. No tricks, no help, no excuses.



Which, if true, shows how Obito is like Naruto. The most important part of him is NOT his own identity (Kabuto), NOT his opponent or goal (Sasuke) and NOT his mind and the realm of the mental (Orochimaru).

It's what he feels. And what he feels is RAGE.

I agree obito is pissed off

 

[R4mbl3]

Very Nice.

 

[LORD TAPATIO]

That was fun. Nice logic

 

[AllomnisymbolsparttwoT]

Just like Obito, Naruto's love will overcome the Juubi thus fulfilling Rikudo's prophecy of the bijuus knowing the right path. love is the only thing that beats the Juubi's hatred its not just rinnnnn no,, good Job :I

 

[Piratefish]

Just like Obito, Naruto's love will overcome the Juubi thus fulfilling Rikudo's prophecy of the bijuus knowing the right path. love is the only thing that beats the Juubi's hatred its not just rinnnnn no,, good Job :I

I kinda figured Obito overpowered the Juubi's hatred with his own hatred.

 

[UchihaNagashi]

He's a Uchiha I can see why he could do that. Even Sasuke always gets a huge a**pull power when gets raged, even when he doesn't have chakra anymore.

 

[Arian]

Nice theory. Finally some1 with some brains on this site. I like^^ *****

 

[B00m]

I had a lot of questions about this scene, you broke it down pretty well. But some questions still bother me....

- If he still needs to remember people important to him then why try to erase this world when it has ultimately made you who you are?

- If he feels rage, then why piece back together the picture of what cause it in the first place?

I can't help but think this scene goes against the Moon Eye Plan because the feelings from the picture and people in it ultimately saved his ass from being consumed by the most powerful entity in Naruto. If that gave you so much will/rage power why try and erase it? And showing a complete picture again means he cares.

Edit: If he himself ends up making a fake world, then shouldn't he know everything is fake? Which means anything he feels is essentially not real either? But maybe he could be ok with that, he isn't exactly sane.

Oh, and nice thread ^_^

 

[projecttsukinome]

Aaah! A nice thread in a long time...something intellectually stimulating...Loved it
+ rep

 

[H a n]

His emotions will take care of this problem.

 

[EliteShinobi]

Good thread sir.

 

[Piratefish]

I had a lot of questions about this scene, you broke it down pretty well. But some questions still bother me....

- If he still needs to remember people important to him then why try to erase this world when it has ultimately made you who you are?

- If he feels rage, then why piece back together the picture of what cause it in the first place?

I can't help but think this scene goes against the Moon Eye Plan because the feelings from the picture and people in it ultimately saved his ass from being consumed by the most powerful entity in Naruto. If that gave you so much will/rage power why try and erase it? And showing a complete picture again means he cares.

Edit: If he himself ends up making a fake world, then shouldn't he know everything is fake? Which means anything he feels is essentially not real either? But maybe he could be ok with that, he isn't exactly sane.

Oh, and nice thread ^_^

The thing is, the people in the photograph aren't JUST people, as we can see from Obito's body in the mindscape. At the same time as Obito disappears, so does his right arm in the mindscape. Same with Kakashi and the left arm, and Minato and his whole upper body. So the people in the picture are not JUST the people they represent, in Obito's memories.

What I argued was that they instead were cornerstones of Obito's identity. If the picture had been entirely gone, then Obito's mind would have been, too. So it's not the memory of Rin, exactly, which allowed him to beat the Juubi, and reform his mind. It's what Rin represents, in Obito's mind.

Rin represents everything that's wrong with the world. Innocents cannot be saved. That's why the world must burn.

And even the Juubi can't stop him from destroying it.

 

[B00m]

The thing is, the people in the photograph aren't JUST people, as we can see from Obito's body in the mindscape. At the same time as Obito disappears, so does his right arm in the mindscape. Same with Kakashi and the left arm, and Minato and his whole upper body. So the people in the picture are not JUST the people they represent, in Obito's memories.

What I argued was that they instead were cornerstones of Obito's identity. If the picture had been entirely gone, then Obito's mind would have been, too. So it's not the memory of Rin, exactly, which allowed him to beat the Juubi, and reform his mind. It's what Rin represents, in Obito's mind.

Rin represents everything that's wrong with the world. Innocents cannot be saved. That's why the world must burn.

And even the Juubi can't stop him from destroying it.

Yeah, those REAL people made him who he is. So what I am wondering is why try to change/mask the real world that gave him those strong motives in the first place and essentially gave him the power to saved himself from being consumed? With masking this world he is also masking his emotional strength seen in this chapter.

I guess you can argue that his emotions of Rin and what she represents override any other emotions he has, but still Kakashi and Minato being picture somewhat contradicts his plan of Infinite Tsukuyomi because feelings felt in dreamland would just be his creation which I believe can't really stimulate someone, let alone Obito, emotionally. It's like fake Rin, along with the fake emotions that follow, over anything in the real world.

Sure you can rid the world of innocent people dying with Infinite Tsukuyomi, but then he is just not even allowing innocents, or whatever Rin represents to him, to exist in the first place. I just can't help but see contradictions with his said plan and what gave him his identity and power we saw this chapter. With his plan activated he loses his emotions/representations just so he can see/save Rin.

I feel like I am repeating myself and we are at a conclusion disagreement:erm::dunno:

 

[Piratefish]

@B00m

Yes, Obito was made into who he is now due, in a large part, to the people in the picture. But to him, that is no argumet FOR why the world should continue to exist.

The single largest event responsible for who Obito is today was Rin's death. Rin didn't die because of any mistake of her own, and even the Mist-ninja directly responsible for her death can't be said to be ultimately responsible.

Did they want Rin, specifically, to die? No, she was just the easiest route to achieving their goals.

Did they even desire the massive destruction caused by the Sanbi unleashed in the middle of Konoha, the multitudes of civilian and shinobi deaths caused by its rampage?

No, probably not.

They are people too. Most people do NOT want death and destruction for its own sake. The Mist Ninja did what they did to ensure a possibly MASSIVE military, economic and organizational advantage over the biggest and most powerful nation in the world. Is it really their FAULT that Rin died?

Obito doesn't think so. Obito blames the system, not the criminals. And in a world as ****ed up as the NV, he's not even WRONG.


The good guys agree with him! Those, like Jiraiya and Nagato, who have considered the state of the world deeply, think it NEEDS TO BE CHANGED. And Naruto agrees too! He also wants to "change the system"!

There is one, fundamental difference between Naruto and Obito, though. Naruto trusts people. Obito doesn't.

Naruto probably likes the person he has become, but even HE doesn't like the trials the world forced him to overcome. Loneliness, hatred and apathy in his younger years, Sasuke leaving even though he would have stayed if he could, Jiraiya dying by his own student's hand, both fighting for the same goal. It's messed up. It's downright shitty.

Obito probably hates the person he has become. But the sheer loathing he feels for the world that made him is what drives him. Much like Sasuke wanting Itachi's death for the obliteration of his clan, Obito wants the world, as it is, to be OVER.

And because he doesn't trust people, he hasn't tried the diplomatic route. Even the ENTIRE WORLD united to stop him hasn't given him pause. Obito thinks if people CAN do evil, they WILL.

So he's not going to give them the slightest chance. It's almost admirable, in a way.

 

[Baconheimer]

thought provoking analysis! well done! Rin seems to be what fills the hole in Obito's heart even after death

 

[Byron123]

Nice way of comparing the photo with his personnal features. Clever=D

 

[xcoyote]

Good thread and nice analysis mate!! + rep

 

[jorgelius]

very nice work i grasp lot more now about obito.. i think minato represent different things than reflects, before his "trasformation" minato was rolemodel shaping obito, making his own ideology to obito..

he refuses all minato is, first thing he said after changing appearance

Spoiler

You must be registered for see images

WHAT obito said above cant be translated to english properly
Kirin rei atleast theorised that obito refers to kakashi with "fellow of the traitor" and said it to minato or sasuke probably to both

that means sasuke's changing sides dont mean anything to him, he do such things regular basis.. this means his right side "kakashi" mean lot to him on some wierd way..