kotoamatsukami
Active member
Yea you have to look at who ww fought,ww fought an opponent that was stronger than the 4 he fought thanks to them holding back there real power giving starrk a fighting chance.
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[Discussion] Strongest Espada Wonderweiss can defeat?
- Thread starter SnakeSkinBlade
- Start date
kotoamatsukami
Active member
Ww took down bankai kensei even though it was off panel he still beat him an showed up with no injuries thanks to his high speed regeneration probably...naw not barrgan he seemed like the most deadliest one someone stupid like ww stands no chance against barrgan power.
Forbidden Tale
Active member
He stated something, burden of proof is on you to prove him wrong, not me. Manga stated something, you need to give good explanation why that isn't the case, that tell us more than just "he wouldn't do that".
As I said to kotoamatsukami, Yamamoto said something, that alone tell us more than otherwise, burden of proof is on you, not to mention that Yama at that time wasn't arrogant, had time to watch Aizen's battle, feelt his reiatsu and still didn't found Aizen being impressive. Not to mention that Aizen alone didn't say anything against Yama's statament.
You don't know in which manner Starrk would lose to Yama.
Aizen already said that Espada's whole power is inferior to his own, and Yama said that even without zanpakuto is still stronger than Aizen, than that's not weird in which manner did WW lost.
kotoamatsukami
Active member
Lol what? Gin stated aizen was unbeatable no matter what,but yet aizen knew he could not beat Yama with his own power so he created ww,so what people say really don't hold to much weight..zommari stated he was the fastest espada an how many people believe that? An I also believe noritora stated he was the strongest espada an look how that turned out,just cuz they confident dont mean they gone win.
So like I said you need to bring more proof.
Say something to Yama statement for what he already knew Yama was going down from the very beginning.
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Forbidden Tale
Active member
Still, Gin though that he can take him down. That's about his statament. Also which statament is more valid, Yamamoto guy with experience of over 2000 years or Gin, the guy who is shinigami just for 100 years?
kotoamatsukami
Active member
Don't matter how many years they were captains they both made a statement in the manga sense that's a that matters....now explain to me the zommari one he said he was the fastest so is he the fastest? I mean he was never proved wrong of being so.
Forbidden Tale
Active member
His statament was proven wrong, also unlike Gin, Yamamoto is aware of his strenght and is more knowledge.
Zommari said that his sonido is fastest in the espada, and it is. But speed is not just about sonido, so overall he would come as third or fourth fastest.
kotoamatsukami
Active member
Yama's was also proven wrong cuz he was hugining the ground in the end.
Speed is just not sonido lol what? Then what is it what else is there to it?
super yang
Active member
Forbidden Tale
Active member
That would be true, if Yama lost to Aizen, but he didn't he lost to his own techniques and WW.
You also have raw speed. Starrk was never demonstrated using sonido, he use just raw speed and still in his base was able to outpace Bankai Ichigo (already faster than Byakuya).
Bankai Ichigo don't use just shunpo, he is not very good at it, he use his raw speed that comes from his bankai.
Shinigami speed - Shunpo + Raw speed
Quincy speed - Hirenkyaku + Raw speed
Arrancar speed - Sonido + Raw speed
What do you mean Yama at that time was not arrogant, he always is arrogant his statement was arrogant. A zanpaktouless Yama can't beat Aizen, this is shown seeing how Aizen was only worried about RJ and not Yama himself, and again he was confident that he would beat Yama if RJ was sealed. Aizen isn't going to reply to everything Yama says Aizen is stronger than a zanpaktouless Yama.
Yes we don't know how Starrk would fair against Yama, but I don't see WW pushing Shunsui at all as much as Starrk did.
Aizen is stronger than a zanpaktouless Yama
kotoamatsukami
Active member
Ok then lets refer back to tsukishima vs Byakuya,tsukishima knew everything about Byakuya his spirtual pressure an how his zanpacto works it's as if he knew an trained with Byakuya his whole life an kept telling Byakuya that he could not defeat him but look at how that turned out in the end...just because you are confident an you think you can beat ur opponent don't mean you will in the end.
Bankai ichigo was faster than Byakuya? Prove it.....um starrk use sonido to escape zaraki an ichigo so what you mean he never used it?,an I believe he used it in the battle with kyoraku aswell I'm pretty sure of it....an yea he escape ichigo cuz ichigo did not use flash step.
In the end a espada sonido is faster then their raw speed,zommari claims he has the fastest sonido Which nobody really seems to believe.
kotoamatsukami
Active member
Ww was kinda keeping up with Yama in speed he even was able to grab hold of Yama,now if he can grab Hold of Yama I'm pretty sure he can grab kyoraku,an kyoraku not tanking thoes punches like Yama did nor does it seems like shikai kyoraku can deliver a strong enough blow to bypass ww instant regeneration.
An don't forget he took down ukitake,he was able to get behind ukitake back whike ukitake was looking dead at him.
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Forbidden Tale
Active member
He was never shown to be confident in beating Yama without shikai, he had WW with him.
How is Yama's statament arrogant.
1. He is one of most knowledge person in Bleach.
2. Watched whole Aizen vs Shinigamis battle
3. Feelt his reiatsu
and still made such a statament, there is more to say Yama is stronger than Aizen.
Forbidden Tale
Active member
1. Tsukishima was arrogant, and actually he would defeat Byakuya if he didn't made such a stupid move, but as I said, Yama is more knowledge, and something that Yama said has more value than what Tsukishima sau, but on top of that Tsukishima only lost because of that stupid move in the end.
Bankai Ichigo outpaced Byakuya and put his sword on Byakuya's neck, this was even proven when Byakuya said you will regret for not cuting my neck.... Bankai Ichigo's raw speed > Byakuya's shunpo.
Byakuya was showed to be faster than Zommari. So, Bankai Ichigo's raw speed > BYakuya's shunpo > Zommari's sonido
Base Starrk outpaced Bankai Ichigo and grap Orihime, without Ichigo not noticing and that was even Starrk coming from the other side of Las Noches. Base Starrk's raw speed > Bankai Ichigo's raw speed > Byakuya's shunpo > Zommari's sonido. And that's just Base Starrk, Starrk in ressurecion should be faster.
He was never showed to use sonido and what Zommari did is more impressive considering that he could make clones, but that was because of sonido. Can you prove that Starrk used sonido. Even if he did, which I don't believe, he still has ressurection, and ressurection would just increase his raw speed, not sonido, that's enough for my point here to stand.
There were no contradiction that Zommari don't have fastest sonido, nor did anyone said that they don't believe in that, it's just that some of espadas are faster than him in other categories in speed.
kotoamatsukami
Active member
An that's the same way Yama could have lost by a simple move at the very end..Byakuya is smart that's why he won in the end,aizen is smarter than Yama an would have had a plan to beat Yama..an why does something Yama say holds more weight than what tsukishima said? I don't get it? Yama is not a god that knows everything an tsukishima had way more knowledge on his opponent than Yama had on his...an if you gone call tsukishima arrogant than you gotta say the same for Yama cuz they both thought that they were going to beat their opponents no matter what.
Byakuya did not know what to expect from ichigo bankai that's why that happend,that's why Byakuya went to senkei so he could fight ichigo sword to sword that's would be stupid if ichigo would just out speed him they were even in speed untill ichigo started slowing down.
Byakuya won't faster than zommari,zommari just talked to much about his sonido an the fact he could create clones giving Byakuya enough info to come up with a counter plan.
Outpaced ichigo? Ichigo did not even know he was coming so what you mean?,...won't no body on their guard thinking another enemy was close by...an like I said ichigo did not flash step while stark used sonido so stop saying his base speed..an did you just put starkk base speed over zommari sonido then starkk sonido should be greater than zommari's aswell.
He was never showed useing sonido lol is that some type of joke?..nobody raw speed is faster than there sonido,flash step or what ever Quincy use..prove he did not use sonido?,we all know he did thoe.
No one seems to think zommari sonido is the fastest for some reason.
Forbidden Tale
Active member
1. Never happen, so what's the point?
2. Who said that Byakuya is smarter than Tsukishima, smart wasn't really any equivalent, Tsukishima has know about everything Byakuya has knew, he even teached him his techniqes, he literally know any technique or tactic Byakuya ever made, that was just arrogan from Tsukishima's side.
3. Saying that you are stronger than someone is not arrogant. Tsukishima's words were nearly true, arrogant is what Yama did agaisnt RoydYhwach, not what he did against Aizen. Yama never lost to Aizen. It was also imlied that Aizen would be dead by Ennetsu Jigoku, after WW explode, Yama who tried to stop explosion (explosion that would kill Aizen), was left nearly dead, but still was able to cast 90s level of kido, and damage Aizen, which further my point here.
4. Byakuya did outpaced twice. If we take that first time he was just surpised, than why didn't he counter it second time. Ichigo was faster than Byakuya, than he just slowing down, what made them equal in speed, he started slowing down because he take a hit from Senbonzakura, when he was still in shikai, which later take effect, that was proven with their conversation:
Byakuya: "I didn't get faster"
Ichigo: "You want to say that I got slower".
5. Byakuya was faster than Zommari, it was proven when latter used Utsetsumi and outpaced him.
6. Never said that Starrk used Sonido. One can use just his raw speed and still be faster than him using sonido. Ichigo's raw speed is faster than his shunpo speed. Zaraki don't even know shunpo, he also use just raw speed.
7. Manga didn't stated that he used sonido. So, burden of proof is on you, not me, you need to give proof or at least good explanation why did Starrk used sonido.
8. Where was stated that no one believe that Zommari's sonido is not fastest? Fact and feats say that his sonido is best, tho, just raw speed of others are greater than his.
2. Who said that Byakuya is smarter than Tsukishima, smart wasn't really any equivalent, Tsukishima has know about everything Byakuya has knew, he even teached him his techniqes, he literally know any technique or tactic Byakuya ever made, that was just arrogan from Tsukishima's side.
3. Saying that you are stronger than someone is not arrogant. Tsukishima's words were nearly true, arrogant is what Yama did agaisnt RoydYhwach, not what he did against Aizen. Yama never lost to Aizen. It was also imlied that Aizen would be dead by Ennetsu Jigoku, after WW explode, Yama who tried to stop explosion (explosion that would kill Aizen), was left nearly dead, but still was able to cast 90s level of kido, and damage Aizen, which further my point here.
4. Byakuya did outpaced twice. If we take that first time he was just surpised, than why didn't he counter it second time. Ichigo was faster than Byakuya, than he just slowing down, what made them equal in speed, he started slowing down because he take a hit from Senbonzakura, when he was still in shikai, which later take effect, that was proven with their conversation:
Byakuya: "I didn't get faster"
Ichigo: "You want to say that I got slower".
5. Byakuya was faster than Zommari, it was proven when latter used Utsetsumi and outpaced him.
6. Never said that Starrk used Sonido. One can use just his raw speed and still be faster than him using sonido. Ichigo's raw speed is faster than his shunpo speed. Zaraki don't even know shunpo, he also use just raw speed.
7. Manga didn't stated that he used sonido. So, burden of proof is on you, not me, you need to give proof or at least good explanation why did Starrk used sonido.
8. Where was stated that no one believe that Zommari's sonido is not fastest? Fact and feats say that his sonido is best, tho, just raw speed of others are greater than his.
apple pie of doom
Active member
None.
He is slightly below arroniero level I'd guess.
But his only use is sealing flames, otherwise he's pretty much weak.
He is slightly below arroniero level I'd guess.
But his only use is sealing flames, otherwise he's pretty much weak.