ss4 goku>>>>> beerus AND whis at the same time.

[obito uchiha the wraith]

I hope you realize that Beerus at the time, was by far, the strongest thing Goku has ever even seen. Your math is not greater than Toriyama.

doesnt matter for multiple reasons gt is a seperate universe or atleast i assume it will be one of the 12 even if it wasnt it still exists. toriyama himself had beerus state how much power he used and that alone was enough for me to finally prove hes nothing compared to gt goku and by extension neither is ssgss goku. goku time character really were op

 

[obito uchiha the wraith]

Power Levels undetermined after Gohan's zenkai from Ginyu Force, SS4 not canon, Beerus is a God so I doubt power levels would matter.

i used no power levels here

 

[Dark Sonic]

i used no power levels here

My bad on that but we still can't determine SS4's capabilities. Beerus is technically a God so I'm thinking that his ki is not of a regular person/alien

 

[TimothyTheTomato]

Vegito would still lose to beerus and he's higher than ss4 goku

 

[obito uchiha the wraith]

Vegito would still lose to beerus and he's higher than ss4 goku

vegito isnot higher than ss4 goku never has been especially not when super 27 saga starts

 

[obito uchiha the wraith]

My bad on that but we still can't determine SS4's capabilities. Beerus is technically a God so I'm thinking that his ki is not of a regular person/alien

being a god didnt stop majin buu from killing 3 of them now did it?

 

[TimothyTheTomato]

vegito isnot higher than ss4 goku never has been especially not when super 27 saga starts

Goku used ss on rildo
Vegito base would be in between gt gokus base and ss form
His ss3 would be higher than gt goku
Ss4 Goku would at most be five times stronger
At most initial ss4 goku is 10% Beerus
Btw raging vegeta fought a ten percent beerus but was still far below
The gap is similar to goku and raditz and beerus took his galick gun easier than raditz took gokus kamehameha
At most ss4 is a one or two
Beerus a 10
And whis 15
Btw 1st form frieza was the strongest ki sensed by gohan and piccolo putting him on rildo tier or higher due to buu (most likely higher as buu was equal to rildo and since they haven't sensed a power that big frieza in first form is greater than any buu)
Frieza in his true form is 50 to one hundred times stronger than his first form but weaker than Saiyan beyond God Goku who is around a six
The gao between first form frieza and his true form is a bigger gap than between ss goku and ss4 goku.
Ss4 goku got cut by glass and struggled to hold a building while he was standing( he had trouble with forty tons dur to bukujutsu in z. Gt had no excuse) city busting in gt was viewed as impressive and baby vegetas galick gun didn't destroy earth ss4 goku is vulnerable to sharp objects but yardrat goku took sword strikes to his finger unscathed. Beerus and goku showed more flight speed and combat feats than anything in gt . only gogeta is debatable.
Rof true form frieza is equal to ss4 goku at his weakest
Golden frieza rivals or surpasses omega
Beerus definitely surpasses omega

 

[TimothyTheTomato]

Also vegeta got a rage boost more ridiculous than namek gokus zenkai and it rivalled fusion
At the end of the day goku still said a supressed beerus takes vegito(the only canon goku vegeta fusion)
Vegetas rage boost cant nerf Beerus as that still stands
With your logic beerus is equal to ultimate gohan cause gohan was more than ten times ss2 goku and vegeta
Vegeta just got a bae boost for his bae
Also fansubs are a little shakey
Aa long as Suppressed beerus takes vegito there's nothing in gt that can stop him
Btw rage vegeta still had to be 2 to three times weaker than ten percent beerus as ki blasts including galick gun have a confirmed amp when powered in that manner. And Beerus negated it with more ease than 50% frieza struggled with gokus kaioken kamehameha. The gap between vegeta and beerus was enough to make him seem useless
Beerus praised vegeta as he could only make vegeta seem that shitty with ten percent(alledgedly still waiting for better subs) . Beerus could've still beaten him with 5% why waste the time.
10% Beerus>Vegito
10%Beerus>Raging vegeta
10%Beerus>everything in gt until the super 17 arc
Nothing in gt is more than ten times(atleast ) stronger than full power vegito(buu saga atleast and its very likely super's hypothetical vegito would be stronger due to small gains of goku and Vegeta also broly and cell confirmed super saiyans still get zenkai).
Nothing is that much stronger than This vegito by that much unless their gogeta ss4 omega or whis
Btw gt lessened ss multiplier in the rildo fight and made it 3 times
This furthers my argument
And by feats ss goku in gt is slower than gotenks

 

[obito uchiha the wraith]

Goku used ss on rildo
Vegito base would be in between gt gokus base and ss form
His ss3 would be higher than gt goku
Ss4 Goku would at most be five times stronger
At most initial ss4 goku is 10% Beerus
Btw raging vegeta fought a ten percent beerus but was still far below
The gap is similar to goku and raditz and beerus took his galick gun easier than raditz took gokus kamehameha
At most ss4 is a one or two
Beerus a 10
And whis 15
Btw 1st form frieza was the strongest ki sensed by gohan and piccolo putting him on rildo tier or higher due to buu (most likely higher as buu was equal to rildo and since they haven't sensed a power that big frieza in first form is greater than any buu)
Frieza in his true form is 50 to one hundred times stronger than his first form but weaker than Saiyan beyond God Goku who is around a six
The gao between first form frieza and his true form is a bigger gap than between ss goku and ss4 goku.
Ss4 goku got cut by glass and struggled to hold a building while he was standing( he had trouble with forty tons dur to bukujutsu in z. Gt had no excuse) city busting in gt was viewed as impressive and baby vegetas galick gun didn't destroy earth ss4 goku is vulnerable to sharp objects but yardrat goku took sword strikes to his finger unscathed. Beerus and goku showed more flight speed and combat feats than anything in gt . only gogeta is debatable.
Rof true form frieza is equal to ss4 goku at his weakest
Golden frieza rivals or surpasses omega
Beerus definitely surpasses omega

goku said rildo was stronger than majin buu and he was whooping his ass while in base form it wasnt until rildo transformed that goku NEEDED to go super saiyan.

i agree ss2-3 vegito probably would be stronger than ss4 goku no doubt

ummm are you saying that angry ss2 vegeta> ss4 goku even considering the fact that base form gt goku is ss3 level? foh 10% beerus my ass

gt hasnt happened yet so it doesnt matter what chi they sense from frieza besides gt is a seperate universe.

ss4 goku struggled with a building for laughs he lifted up a whole island.

buu arc goku got cut by claws so yes cutting is inconsistent in db thanks for pointing that out.

ssgss goku shot a fully charged kamehameha at the ground and barely made a crater it was also seen as impressive.

everything you just said is irrelevant to the fact that beerus needed to use 10% against vegeta in order to win. if you were to assume that beerus was using 5% and was = to that vegeta thats still more than enough for ss4 goku to be over 100x stronger than full power beerus. please note that im not even using super 17 or shadow arc goku whos super saiyan form was leagues stronger than majuub who was stronger than buuhan

 

[TimothyTheTomato]

goku said rildo was stronger than majin buu and he was whooping his ass while in base form it wasnt until rildo transformed that goku NEEDED to go super saiyan.

i agree ss2-3 vegito probably would be stronger than ss4 goku no doubt

ummm are you saying that angry ss2 vegeta> ss4 goku even considering the fact that base form gt goku is ss3 level? foh 10% beerus my ass

gt hasnt happened yet so it doesnt matter what chi they sense from frieza besides gt is a seperate universe.

ss4 goku struggled with a building for laughs he lifted up a whole island.

buu arc goku got cut by claws so yes cutting is inconsistent in db thanks for pointing that out.

ssgss goku shot a fully charged kamehameha at the ground and barely made a crater it was also seen as impressive.

everything you just said is irrelevant to the fact that beerus needed to use 10% against vegeta in order to win. if you were to assume that beerus was using 5% and was = to that vegeta thats still more than enough for ss4 goku to be over 100x stronger than full power beerus. please note that im not even using super 17 or shadow arc goku whos super saiyan form was leagues stronger than majuub who was stronger than buuhan

Yakon claws >glass cause frieza tail is stronger than a bat
Vegito can't beat beerus
Ss4 goku can't beat beerus
Said it yourself
And Vegetas attacks didn't faze beerus even With amped attacks
Beerus>Gt
Regarding Gokus kamehameha the collateral was controlled and the area of effect wasnt praised only its potency
But omega pulling a nappa had ss4 goku suckin omegas nuts

Vegeta got a ridiculous boost that put him atleast a hundred times stronger than his regular ss2 self
Look at the difference between him and ultimate gohan before
Also Gotenks was a ss3 so of course vegito would be
Vegito can't beat beerus
But vegito takes most of gt
Ss4 gets shitstomped by beerus

 

[TimothyTheTomato]

Bog vegito would be higher than buu saga vegito who would be higher than 17 arc ss3 goku
Bog vegito at his fullest would be near Ss4 goku or higher
You even recognized this
10% Beerus would still take that Vegito
10%Beerus was higher than vegeta you saw the fight right?. Vegeta did less damage than in bog but had higher attacks
Beerus didn't even flinch and all attacks were blocked easily
Frieza used 50% on Goku but Goku was obviously lower than that by a large margin.
Nothing in gt is ten times stronger than vegito
Vegetas rage boost only put him near vegito and higher than gotenks and gohan
Unless you believe ultimate gohan was near ss2 vegeta and Goku was lying about fusion not working on suppressed beerus.
But you can't deny facts

 

[TimothyTheTomato]

Holy shit i just realized how bad your multipliers are in your first post
In z
Ss is a fifty times boost
Ss2 is a two times boost
Ss3 is a four time boost
All confirmed multipliers on dbz guide books
In Gt Rildo said ss goku was only three times stronger than before
And at most ss4 is a five hundred time boost(oozaru and ss) or 1000 due to condensed power
Not factoring in ss3 cause Goku and Vegeta in ss4 were pretty close despite vegeta not having ss3
Buu Saga Vegito in base form likely stomps Rildo
Ss Vegito contends with baby up to his golden oozaru state
Ss2 and beyond in shadow dragon tier
This same vegito cannot beat a suppressed Beerus. But he isn't far from ss4 goku
Omega is around ten times goku strength
Beerus is more than ten times vegito
Beerus is more than ten times rage boost vegeta( who seemed to have a multiplication power stack as he got over 100 times stronger(due to him rivaling his fused self briefly)putting majuub and s17 arc ss goku to shame, possibly rivalling power beyond gt ss3goku)Beerus at ten percent handled Vegeta easier than nappa handled piccolo or vegeta handled kkx2 Goku. Just because Beerus usef a certain amount of power doesnt mean his opponent was equal. Beerus just had to to make Vegeta with this crazy boost still look like fodder.
Something heavily suppressed Beerus might have a little trouble with (like in bog he got more damage but in super Beerus takes everything even more easily and in the manga even sighs at his blast)
Dude once i saw your multipliers I should have just left the thread but hey i gotta spread the wisdom like buttcheeks
I mean butter.

 

[TimothyTheTomato]

goku said rildo was stronger than majin buu and he was whooping his ass while in base form it wasnt until rildo transformed that goku NEEDED to go super saiyan.

i agree ss2-3 vegito probably would be stronger than ss4 goku no doubt

ummm are you saying that angry ss2 vegeta> ss4 goku even considering the fact that base form gt goku is ss3 level? foh 10% beerus my ass

gt hasnt happened yet so it doesnt matter what chi they sense from frieza besides gt is a seperate universe.

ss4 goku struggled with a building for laughs he lifted up a whole island.

buu arc goku got cut by claws so yes cutting is inconsistent in db thanks for pointing that out.

ssgss goku shot a fully charged kamehameha at the ground and barely made a crater it was also seen as impressive.

everything you just said is irrelevant to the fact that beerus needed to use 10% against vegeta in order to win. if you were to assume that beerus was using 5% and was = to that vegeta thats still more than enough for ss4 goku to be over 100x stronger than full power beerus. please note that im not even using super 17 or shadow arc goku whos super saiyan form was leagues stronger than majuub who was stronger than buuhan

I was establishing that first form frieza rivals rildo or surpasses him
In gt the first person to have "the strongest ki ever sensed" by goku is Baby
Frieza by sensing statement is above rildo and on par with super baby vegeta
The diff between this frieza and golden freeza or even his fourth form is bigger than the gap between baby and Goku.

 

[Ansatsuken]

Many people said this power level thingy no longer having any significance to the series. What matter the most is what shown in manga

 

[Your Creepy Stalker]

Many people said this power level thingy no longer having any significance to the series. What matter the most is what shown in manga

Toriyama is one of them. Power level 18,000 can destroy earth, and power level 100,000,000,000,000,000,000's trump card is still planet busting. Methinks there be bullshit.

 

[Ansatsuken]

Toriyama is one of them. Power level 18,000 can destroy earth, and power level 100,000,000,000,000,000,000's trump card is still planet busting. Methinks there be bullshit.

Thats why. I dont think Toriyama care enough about PL, hehe..

 

[00Rinne]

So if SS4 Gogeta couldn't vanquish Omega Shinron with a BBKamehameha, then how is a SS4 Goku suppose to beat a god?. Throw your numbers on power lvl's out the window and use your visual prowess to see logic in your statement an not some numbers that can't be real because SS4 Goku isn't canon weather that was the discussion or not.

 

[Dwizz]

Well, seeing as how Toriyama has never shown consistency when it comes to power scaling, debating about anything beyond what his forgetful Ass says is cannon is a moot point. It his his manga after all.

 

[ninjarasengan]

So if SS4 Gogeta couldn't vanquish Omega Shinron with a BBKamehameha, then how is a SS4 Goku suppose to beat a god?. Throw your numbers on power lvl's out the window and use your visual prowess to see logic in your statement an not some numbers that can't be real because SS4 Goku isn't canon weather that was the discussion or not.

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These are gods...didn't they get rekt by Buu despite being 'gods' with god ki and all that?

 

[00Rinne]

You must be registered for see links

These are gods...didn't they get rekt by Buu despite being 'gods' with god ki and all that?

You choose that what you highlighted for your argument to say Goku can beat a god. Those guys are not of fighting potential. Pick the discussion on how is SS4 Goku suppose to beat the god of destruction if a fused Goku and Vegeta couldn't beat someone who's far below the level of Beerus which is Omega Shinron.

Being ridiculously strong and being on god level like Beerus are two different things. And Beerus isn't even on Whises level so SS4 Goku's not beating Whis if he can't handle The God Of Destruction.

My total argument with this is, a SS4 fusion cant beat Shinron so how is Goku on his own no matter what level he's on can't beat the god of destruction. Whis states that if they fuse then Goku and Vegeta can fight on par with Beerus not beat him but fight on par.

SS4 Goku is not beating the g o d.