[Theory] Spiral Zetsu : Izuna's Will [Final and Revised Version]

ROHAN

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Note: This Theory has taken a drastic turn and I had to completely write a new part of this. As such, I have decided to re-post this theory.

If you have read the First part, just take a look at "Point 2" and skip to the Edit Section.

Edit: Ever since, Black Zetsu's revelation as Kaguya's son, I have to say that this theory has taken a big turn. As such, I have changed "Point 2" and added an edit section.

1) Hashirama's and Madara's Flashback

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At this point of time, we see that Madara had not yet gone blind. He was still on equal footing with Hashirama. His MS eyes were still clear and had not gone blind.

Also note that Izuna is antagonistic to the Senju.

Only later did Madara awaken the EMS.

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But this poses a question : Why did Madara transplant Izuna's eyes at the point of Izuna's mortal wound by Tobirama ? Where did this EMS knowledge come from ? Why would Madara transplant eyes if his own MS had not gone blind ?

Not to mention at this point of time, nobody knew that EMS existed as Madara was the first person to awaken it.

My answer : Izuna at the time of his Mortal wound given by Tobirama realized that his body was not going to last long.

So, he gave his eyes to Madara to awaken EMS.

2) Madara's Supposed Death

We know that Madara lost at the Valley of the end fight and was mortally wounded.

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But, Hashirama notices someone's presence.

Who could it be ? The logical answer is it was someone to help Madara. And I say that was Izuna.

Edit :-

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Here, we see that the mysterious figure was Black Zetsu and not Izuna.

While, you may say it kinda disproves my theory, quite the contrary, it actually strengthens this theory as it solves a big plothole in my theory. I will clear this up in the edit section.




I will take a long shot here and say that Izuna knew about this from the Uchiha Stone Tablet :-

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Ashura which is in Hashirama Powers + Indra which is in Madara Powers = Rinnegan

After reviving Madara with Hashirama's and Ashura's power, Izuna was able to ensure that Madara would awaken Rinnegan in the future.

At this point, I would say that Izuna died reviving Madara.

3) The Purpose of the Zetsu Experiments

What was the purpose of the Zetsu experiments ?

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Obviously, Madara didn't know the true purpose of the White Zetsus and thus classified them as Failures.

True purpose of White Zetsus :-

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Madara calling White Zetsus failed experiments :-

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Obviously, If Madara knew about the White Zetsu Army, he would have never pursued Infinite Tsukuyomi as a way of Peace.

So, Why ? It was to revive his Brother Izuna. Madara loved his brother dearly. As, such the ultimate goal of his experiments was to resurrect Izuna. And, he finally succeeded in reviving Izuna's will in Spiral Zetsu.

Note: Unlike Black and White Zetsu, Spiral Zetsu was completely unique and couldn't be related to Kaguya's plans.

4) Role Of Obito

While we can say that Obito was a backup in Madara's plan, I find another purpose.

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In the end, Izuna was just a Will in an Artificial body. He needed a Body, a vessel. And that body was Obito.

Considering that Obito was Half Zetsu, it's plausible that Spiral Zetsu could have controlled him. This might explain the "Goofy Tobi incident". This relationship between Spiral Zetsu and Obito could have been symbiotic.

Considering that the whole Rin incident was Madara's plan, it's plausible that Madara did this for Obito to be :-

A) As a backup for his plan.

B) To give Izuna or Spiral Zetsu a vessel.

5) The Sauske and Madara incident

Hashirama says that Madara dearly loved Izuna, his brother.

He also said that Sauske was near identical to Izuna.

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Yet, Madara doesn't hesitate to stab Sauske, a person who has near resemblance to Izuna.

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Moreover, some chapters later, he actually curses the world for his Brother Izuna's death due to power.

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These two panels are contradictory. He almost killed someone who looked like Izuna, yet still cares about him.

Why you ask ? Because by that point, Izuna was alive as Spiral Zetsu fighting the Five Gokage.

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Madara is even concerned for Spiral Zetsu hinting at his "Insides" or Izuna's vessel ( Yamato).

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6) Izuna's Goal

A) We know that Madara's Rinnegan actually was in the possession of Izuna in it's MS state.

B) Izuna gave these eyes to Madara to awaken EMS.

C) Izuna gave Madara Hashirama DNA, so that he will awaken the Rinnegan.

Where does this point ? Infinite Tsukuyomi. But, does Izuna have the same desire of universal peace via Infinite Tsukuyomi where everyone will became Zetsus ?

No, he wanted the Shinju's fruit, or what is inside it.

I once made a prediction :-



Combining this theory with the prediction, I would say that, Izuna's end goals are :-

A) To revive Sobojo.

B) To get Sobojo's Eyes from Madara (Currently in Kaguya's possession).

c) Absorb the Shinju and become the perfect being with the perfect body and eyes.

This it kinda ties in with TBG's Spiral Zetsu being the fruit theory :-



You may say that Izuna was a part of Sobojo, perhaps, his will.

7) Madara's defeat and revival

Could Madara have fallen to Kaguya on purpose ? So, that he could obtain Kaguya's power ? Will Izuna help Madara in obtaining Kaguya's power ?

Also, currently Kaguya is inhabiting Madara's body.

Madara's will was also a part of Black Zetsu.

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Who's to say that Black Zetsu did this on purpose to Madara to bring out Kaguya ?

Not to mention that the Rikudou tools are out there which could help in sealing Kaguya who is in Madara's body.

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In the end, Madara could bring Izuna closer to his goal of the fruit. If Madara obtains Kaguya's powers, he can easily defeat two threats to the Shinju's fruit plan : Naruto and Sauske.

8) Villian Trolls

Kishi loves introducing Villains suddenly to increase the appeal of the story. Examples being :-

A) Edo Madara being revived suddenly proving that Tobi was not Madara.

B) Tobi being Obito.

C) Black Zetsu reviving Madara via Obito.

D) Black Zetsu being Kaguya's will and reviving Kaguya.

All of the underlined characters above have a similarity, they had an important role in the story, were forgotten by Kishi purposely and suddenly introduced as Villains. So what's to say that Izuna couldn't be Spiral Zetsu's will and introduced suddenly also ?

9) Conclusion

After reading the huge theory do you think :-

Spiral Zetsu could be

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Izuna's Will ?

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Edit Section :-


1) Solving the Plot-Holes :-

So, there were two plotholes in my Theory which I was never able to solve until Black Zetsu's revelation as Kaguya's son. These were :-

A)
"From Point-1" : But this poses a question : Why did Madara transplant Izuna's eyes at the point of Izuna's mortal wound by Tobirama ? Where did this EMS knowledge come from ? Why would Madara transplant eyes if his own MS had not gone blind ?

Not to mention at this point of time, nobody knew that EMS existed as Madara was the first person to awaken it.
B)
I will take a long shot here and say that Izuna knew about this from the Uchiha Stone Tablet :-

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Ashura which is in Hashirama Powers + Indra which is in Madara Powers = Rinnegan

After reviving Madara with Hashirama's and Ashura's power, Izuna was able to ensure that Madara would awaken Rinnegan in the future.



All these plot holes get solved if Black Zetsu predated (existed before) Izuna and Madara. Black Zetsu existed before Izuna and Madara and as such give Izuna :-

A) Knowledge of the MS and EMS.
B) Knowledge of how to awaken Rinnegan.

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If Black Zetsu and Izuna joined forces to manipulate Madara, then it will also solve many plot-holes riddled here and there in Black Zetsu's narration.

2) Changing the Uchiha Stone Tablet text :-

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(Bottom Panel)

The first problem : How can Black Zetsu change the text on the tablet if he can't read what's written on it ?

If someone wants to read the tablet, you need the Sharingan and it's higher stages.

If he tried to change the text without the Sharingan, he might have written nonsense and not a coherent story which led to Kaguya's revival.

Obviously, Black Zetsu needed an Uchiha's help. An Uchiha who had the Sharingan. Who fits perfectly here ?

You guessed it right, it was Izuna.

So basically, Black Zetsu meets Izuna, uses his Sharingan to change the text on the Tablet and then gives him the MS and EMS Knowledge which had gotten lost forever.

3) Black Zetsu's Scheme :-

After Madara's death, his body is buried in a hidden location by Tobirama.

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Note: The scan is debatable because another scan said Black Zetsu hid Madara's body. Considering that Madara never knew of Black Zetsu's existence and Tobirama's personality, I would say it was Tobirama who hid Madara's body.

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Here, we can see that right before Madara's revival, Black Zetsu fuses with Madara's Body.

The underlined part is important because at that point "Black Zetsu and Madara became one".

That's why Madara never realised that Black Zetsu was not his will and this is why Black Zetsu formed from Madara.

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Because in the end, both were one.

As such, Black Zetsu is successfully able to trick Madara into thinking that "Madara created him and he didn't exist before Madara existed ".




But, this creates a big problem, namely ; " Who will trigger Madara's Izanagi and revive him ? "

Well, Black Zetsu left this part to Izuna and, I will give proof for this in the next point.

4) Madara's Izanagi Revival :-

We all know that Madara's Izanagi was a trigger based technique similar to how :-

A) Itachi placed Amaterasu in Sauske's Sharingan which was triggered by Obito's Sharingan.

B) Shushui's Crow MS Koto was triggered by Itachi's MS.

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"All Sharingan trigger based techniques require a Sharingan as a Trigger".

Izuna would use His Sharingan to trigger Madara's Izanagi reviving him. Because, he was the only person close to him who could trigger his Izanagi with a Sharingan.

5) The Mysterious Cloaked Figure :-

Right after Madara is revived by Izuna, he replaces his body with a clone.

Yet, we see two people standing before his grave containing Madara's Clone.

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One is Madara as shown by his long hair standing on the Left.

The second one is a cloaked person standing on the right. Why would Kishi put the second person in a cloak ?

Unless of course, the second person was Izuna. By, putting him in a cloak, Kishi was able to keep his identity a secret.

And we see two brothers standing side by side just like in the beginning, Izuna and Madara.

6) Izanagi sealing Sharingan and how Madara bypassed it :-

This is pretty much an assumption but it makes sense as Izuna wanted to lay the foundations of Madara obtaining Rinnegan.

I also think that he convinced Madara to defect from Konoha and pursue Hashirama for his Ashura chakra.

Madara first gives back Izuna his MS and Madara Re-transplants his own MS.

So, Madara has his own original eyes back.

Using, the Sharingan Trigger Logic (Point-4), Izuna puts his MS power as a placeholder along with Izanagi.

Madara's MS + Izuna's placeholder MS = EMS.

Over time, Izuna's Placeholder power vanishes and Madara loses aganist Hashirama. (Not before he takes Hashirama's DNA according to the plan).

Izuna comes back, triggers Izanagi and destroys Madara's original Right MS eye.

Madara re-transplants Izuna's eyes, uses Hashirama's DNA obtains Rinnegan and eventually gives it to Nagato.

He then uses his original Left MS during the encounter with Obito. (The left Sharingan you see with Old Madara).

Madara's Left MS is destroyed when Obito uses it to cast Izanagi against his battle with Konan.

7) The Obito and Tobi Persona inconsistencies :-

As, pointed out by minamoto, there are many inconsistencies regarding the meeting between Tobi and Kisame.



To point them out :-

As stated, the only thing that bugs this whole theory is Madara controlling the Mizukage. Now...

1. We know that Obito took on Madara's name after Madara died. Shortly after we see him talk to Yahiko, Nagato and Konan about forming Akatsuki. Now he might have had that idea a long time ago but it was Yahiko and Nagato that created the organisation. Fact number 1.

2. When Madara/obito reveals himself in front of Kisame, he asks him to join his plan and to join Akatsuki. Fact 2.

Here is where it gets interesting.
If Madara/obito revealed himself in front of Kisame BEFORE the conversation with Yahiko/Nagato, then we can safely assume that it was indeed Madara who was controlling the Mizukage. In that case, the moment Tobi dropped his mask, Kisame should have noticed that it wasn't Madara behind the mask but Obito - a rather unfamiliar character to him.

If Madara/obito revealed himself in front of Kisame AFTER the conversation with Yahiko/Nagato, then we can safely assume that it was actually Obito who spoke to Kisame and pretended to be Madara. In that case Kisame would have no idea how Madara looked and would take his words for it. He would also react the way he did after Tobi dropped his mask as he would have seen Obito's familiar face.

Obito/Tobi was never revealed to have any particular Genjutsu skills so the idea he controlled the Mizukage for that long vexes me greatly. But it could be that it wasn't relevant to the story. In any case this is the ONLY moment in the manga that can be disputed and wer still have no solid proof or accuracy when it comes to timelines in NV.
Madara is a legend...his valley of the end statue, albums and pics are everywhere ..Madara is more famous the Fame itself!!... As, such; everyone should know how he looks like.
But, If Spiral Zetsu was Izuna controlling Obito, he could easily transform his face to his own. And let me tell you, Madara and Izuna look very similar because they are Blood Brothers.

As, such it is possible Izuna showed his own face and Kisame mistook him for Madara due to the similarities in facial structures of Izuna and Madara.

And to add on to this : I don't even to bother explaining as Minamoto himself has made many threads highlighting these inconsistencies between "Goofy Tobi ( Spiral Zetsu or Izuna in control)" and "Obito".




After all this evidence, that I accumulated over months, I think that there is a very high possibility that Kishi may reveal Spiral Zetsu as Izuna.


If, you did make it to this point, Thanks for reading and sticking till the end. :)
 
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Draxus

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I don't understand how Hashirama clones would allow him to resurrect his brother. Wouldn't it have made more sense to be attempting to make Izuna clones? Also how could Izuna's will be transferred into a hashi clone?
 

Madara Uzumaki Uchiha

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Just like black Zetsu is playing a vital role now I believe spiral zetsu will also be important.

Mabey he will merge with Hashirama??

- if he amped Yamato to the point that he could use a mini Budha--- can only imagine what Hashirama could do.
 

ROHAN

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I don't understand how Hashirama clones would allow him to resurrect his brother. Wouldn't it have made more sense to be attempting to make Izuna clones? Also how could Izuna's will be transferred into a hashi clone?
Hashirama has a huge amount of life force. If you read Veritas's theory linking Hashirama's power to the Shinju. The Shinju represents Creation, so it makes sense.

The Gedo Mazou is a nice medium by which you can transfer will or conseince.
 

Draxus

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Hashirama has a huge amount of life force. If you read Veritas's theory linking Hashirama's power to the Shinju. The Shinju represents Creation, so it makes sense.

The Gedo Mazou is a nice medium by which you can transfer will or conseince.
Okay, sorry, but none of that makes sense to me. Though the basis of what you say is true, you're taking huge leaps that defy rational thought.

Ok Hashi's body has huge life force... how does this equate to his body being able to create any body? I'm not interested in theories based on other theories, cuz they're guaranteed wrong. But even if it WAS true, it still doesn't follow that you can create any body from the shinju.

The thing you say about the Mezo is completely made up. Even if it was true, where would Izuna's consciousness or will have come from in the first place?
 
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ROHAN

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Okay, sorry, but none of that makes sense to me. Though the basis of what you say is true, you're taking huge leaps that defy rational thought.

Ok Hashi's body has huge life force... how does this equate to his body being able to create any body? I'm not interested in theories based on other theories, cuz they're guaranteed wrong. But even if it WAS true, it still doesn't follow that you can create any body from the shinju.

The thing you say about the Mezo is completely made up. Even if it was true, where would Izuna's consciousness or will have come from in the first place?
Well, Kishi has been extremely unpredictable with the story till now. All the sudden plot twists which suprise you should give you one answer : Kishi is unpredictable with the plot.

In order to predict an unpredictable story, you need to make unpredictable moves even if they don't make sense from an detailed point of view. Because the details could be cleared up later on.

There was one absurd theory written by FearXdeath which connected Kaguya to the Hyuugas and Byakugan. People called the theory uncertain, yet it did come true.

Main point is: You want to predict Kishi's story ? Think out of the box, not within the box.

While the Hashirama point may look unbelivable, there is just too much evidence and symbolism linking it to the Shinju. ( Include Chatte's Bindu symbol thread).

And I do believe that Izuna made himself into Spiral Zetsu :-

1) To be immortal.
2) To continue Madara's plan and keep an eye on Obito.

It's possible that Izuna near his death would use the black rods to transfer his will into the Gedo Mazou.

Madara would later on use Hashirama's clone aided by Black Zetsu to pull out Izuna's will from the Gedo Mazou and form it into Spiral Zetsu.
 
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Draxus

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Well, Kishi has been extremely unpredictable with the story till now. All the sudden plot twists which suprise you should give you one answer : Kishi is unpredictable with the plot.

In order to predict an unpredictable story, you need to make unpredictable moves even if they don't make sense from an detailed point of view. Because the details could be cleared up later on.

There was one absurd theory written by FearXdeath which connected Kaguya to the Hyuugas and Byakugan. People called the theory uncertain, yet it did come true.

Main point is: You want to predict Kishi's story ? Think out of the box, not within the box.

While the Hashirama point may look unbelivable, there is just too much evidence and symbolism linking it to the Shinju. ( Include Chatte's Bindu symbol thread).

And I do believe that Izuna made himself into Spiral Zetsu :-

1) To be immortal.
2) To continue Madara's plan and keep an eye on Obito.

It's possible that Izuna near his death would use the black rods to transfer his will into the Gedo Mazou.

Madara would later on use Hashirama's clone aided by Black Zetsu to pull out Izuna's will from the Gedo Mazou and form it into Spiral Zetsu.
Where exactly would Izuna get a black rod from? Black rods come from rinnegan users. You do realize Izuna died WAY before Madara awakened rinnegan, right?
 
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minamoto

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Obviously, Madara didn't know the true purpose of the White Zetsus and thus classified them as Failures.
although the Manga seems to have proven this..but i believe we still didn't learn the truth about madara and the white zetsus creation..cuz Madara might have learned about the white zetsus being victimes of IT....also the spiral zetsu could be the only Madara suceed experiment..while the others were a failure!
 

Angelic.

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i dont really get all of it but your saying izuna survived and bz worked with him?
why didnt bz say this before?

imo the failed experiment was the mindless hashi clone, since he thought wz were byproducts of it.

obito is dead, tobis mystery is dead with him.

spiral is telepathicly linked with wz. wz are from gedo. kaguya.
 
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Zealous Sparks

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Great Theory!!

It is very well constructed, and you have taken many points into consideration. I'm sure that Kishi will give Spiral Zetsu some relevance in the upcoming chapters, and as you said, Kishi likes to use somewhat forgotten plot points (Hashi looking toward the cliff at VoTE) to be used later on. If SZ is indeed Izuna's Will, then a confrontation between the two after Madara's return could be a nice way to give closure to Madara's character.
 

ROHAN

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Where exactly would Izuna get a black rod from? Black rods come from rinnegan users. You do realize Izuna died WAY before Madara awakened rinnegan, right?
Well, as far as I know, old Madara was able to manipulate the black rods from Hashirama's clone even when he didn't have the Rinnegan (He had the Sharingan though). I think he called it Inyouton Jutsu. I personally think that both the Sharingan and Rinnegan can use black rods. After all the two doujutsus are connected.

Obikage: I personally think that along the teamwork of Black Zetsu and Izuna, both of them split up as BZ wanted to observe from the shadows. After BZ betrayed Madara,he wouldn't have bothered mentioning Izuna. You may also call it a move by Kishi to hide Izuna's true role for greater impact on the plot later.

Thanks to everyone who liked the read. :) I am on mobile, so it's pretty hard to reply to everyone.
 

dark legion

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it's a good theory .. but you're wrong !!! not about "izuna is Spiral Zetsu" but about his goals .. u mention in your theory about shinju , I.T , reviving Sobojo , .. and where did he got all these information ?!!! even Madara couldn't descript them with MS ... he descripted them in his EMS state .. ( so nobody couldn't know anything about I.T , Shinju , Sobojo , the eye , - including Izuna )



but the Izuna is SZ " is a plausible theory .. it was mentioned before , but not with all this clarify and expansion of facts .. nice job bro :win: +rep
 

Vega

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Nice Work Here Dragonor!

I see potential in this theory as with all the characters occupied at the moment (i.e. Heroes vs Kaguya, Kages w/ Hagoromo); it begs to ask the question as to why is Spiral Zetsu doing?

He mentions he doesn't need the filling once the Infinite Tsukuyomi Started [ ]
Perhaps he's trying to sync up with the God Tree and acquire the Forbidden Fruit like you said.
At that one instance where you mentioned the cloak man, that reminded me a lot of Spiral Zetsu/Tobi's attire during this scene:
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One question that comes to mind is why would he be so fond of feces then lol?
 

Angelic.

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yea that figure standing next to madara after he used izanagi looks like one of the cloaks that madara had in his cave. it is weird why it would show it that way if its just madaras clone. but madara was always emotional about his bro after the loss so i dont know about izuna surviving. it is perfect timing bc everyone else is busy.

there are three cloaks. symbolic maybe?
also theres the question of how madara gave nagato the rinne and set up rins death. he was old and in a cave on life support. they better not go unsolved..
 
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poopieface

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Amazing theory with solid points. I don't think Izuna will have that big of a role, but then again, like you said, Kishi just loves pulling out new yet old villains. I definitely think that BZ worked with Izuna somehow, but it was probably not a direct cooperation.

About spiral zetsu... I have a feeling the Hokages will be finding him and getting information out of him pretty soon. I'm extremely anxious to find out what they're up to.
 

Draxus

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Well, as far as I know, old Madara was able to manipulate the black rods from Hashirama's clone even when he didn't have the Rinnegan (He had the Sharingan though). I think he called it Inyouton Jutsu. I personally think that both the Sharingan and Rinnegan can use black rods. After all the two doujutsus are connected.
Well your personal beliefs fly in the face of manga facts. Madara was able to manipulate block rods AFTER awakening rinnegan, he just didn't need they eyes anymore to used that ability. Just like he doesn't need his eyes to use susanno'o. Also if he had access to a power like that but never used it once against Hashirama?
 
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