[Theory] Spiral Zetsu, a Catalyst: relation to Kamui, Madara, and Gedo Mazou's disappearance

[Senju Bean]

I would like to thank NB member Tebow Youth Groups for the theory he provided yesterday. Truly a great theorist. I'm basing my entire theory on the theory he developed. It can be found here.

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Notice there is an eerily similar pattern between the counterclockwise spiral from Obito’s Kamui and Spiral Zetsu’s spiral?


Too much of a coincidence??

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Also notice that Kamui is one of the most hax Sharingan techniques ever. It has the power to create and maintain and entirely new universe( i.e Kamui Dimension) and make the user almost invincible.

Well, the reason Kamui is so powerful is because there is a good chance that Spiral Zetsu acted as a catalyst, boosting Obito’s MS to epically powerful proportions. Obito's MS may have had an affinity towards ST techs, but it was Spiral Zetsu that made Kamui into what it is.

Look at how the spiral wrapped around the eye Obito was developing his MS. It’s as if all the lines spiraling into Obito’s eye is symbolic of all the power that is being transferred into that eye.

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Because it acts as a catalyst, once it is used, wearing him wouldn’t have anymore ocular boosting powers. That is, Spiral Zetsu being there at the instant Obito was activate his MS caused Obito to develop the Kamui.

Kakashi only developed the long range Kamui because his eyes are connected to Obito's and they were in such close range at this critical juncture.

Now the real question is, why does Spiral Zetsu have ocular boosting powers? Well, Tebow Youth Groups showed in his thread that Spiral Zetsu is actually the empty shell of the Fruit grown from the Gedo Mazou.



The Fruit gave the Rinnegan to Hagaromo, so clearly it has ocular boosting powers. The shell of the Fruit( Spiral Zetsu) in turn has occur boosting powers as well, just not as great. This is why Obito received the spiral Kamui when he wore Spiral Zetsu.


Now some people say that Obito used Kamui to slip through the boulders. Well, perhaps Obito was able to use a very form of Kamui. Madara noticed it via the many Zetsu spies he has lying around and sent one of the Zetsu's to save him. Then Madara planned to use Spiral Zetsu to alter Obito's Kamui so that explains the perminant spiral pattern.

Now to Madara, why isn’t Madara wearing Spiral Zetsu if it boosts ocular powers? Because, as mentioned before, it is a catalyst. It only works during critical moments such as activating a Sharingan, MS, EMS or Rinnegan. Since Madara already gone through those stages, wearing Spiral Zetsu at this point wouldn’t do him much good.

But wearing Spiral Zetsu at the next critical point, becoming the Juubi Jin, does make a difference. Obito didn’t have a boost in ocular powers by being the Juubi Jin because, 1) he’s not the original owner of the Rinnegan, 2) his Sharingan is too far removed in the evolutionary line for the Juubi to directly increase it’s powers.

But Madara, by virtue of being a original Rinnegan user, and the Rinnegan directly connected to the Juubi, would get a ocular boost from the Juubi. That is why he waiting to become the Juubi Jin. He is going to be wearing Spiral Zetsu as he absorbs the Juubi, making Spiral Zetsu the catalyst that would boost Madara to levels far beyond what Juubito accomplished.

That is why the Gedo Mazou disappeared!! Madara is waiting for Spiral Zetsu to develop!

Also notice that the Fruit has two spirals and Spiral Zetsu has only one.

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Perhaps another possibility is that Madara is developing Spiral Zetsu to be a complete Fruit with two Spirals.

With this hypothesis, Madara will attach the more completed Spiral Zetsu to the Shinju to develop the Fruit completely, then eat it, using it’s nutrients as the Catalyst he needs and then becoming the Juubi Jin.



I will be editing this throughout the week. So please keep updated.

 

[DeadManWonderLand]

Many statements have been made on your behalf without a shred of evidence backing it up in the slightest.
Just assumptions with no actual depth or reasoning.


Spiral Zetsu is a genetically identical to Hashriama
We also have no idea how old that zetsu is though given the times we have seen him he can easily be accounted as one of the first zetsu.

Giving him more time to evolve and adapt to the powers he controls.

There is no reason to think or discern that he amplifies ocular powers its his psychical energy that boost obito's body and sustains his dojustu not trough some mystic connection.

 

[Rasenloki]

I would like to thank NB member Tebow Youth Groups for the theory he provided yesterday. Truly a great theorist. I'm basing by entire theory on the theory he developed. It can be found here.

You must be registered for see links

Notice there is an eerily similar pattern between the counterclockwise spiral from Obito’s Kamui and Spiral Zetsu’s spiral?

You must be registered for see images

You must be registered for see images

Also notice that Kamui is one of the most hax Sharingan techniques ever. It has the power to create and maintain and entirely new universe( i.e Kamui Dimension) and make the user almost invincible.

Well, the reason Kamui is so powerful is because there is a good chance that Spiral Zetsu acted as a catalyst, boosting Obito’s MS to epically powerful proportions.

Look at how the spiral wrapped around the eye Obito was developing his MS. It’s as if all the lines spiraling into Obito’s eye is symbolic of all the power that is being transferred into that eye.

You must be registered for see images

Because it acts as a catalyst, once it is used, wearing him wouldn’t have anymore ocular boosting powers. That is, Spiral Zetsu being there at the instant Obito was activate his MS caused Obito to develop the Kamui.

Kakashi only developed the long range Kamui because his eyes are connected to Obito's and they were in such close range at this critical juncture.

Now the real question is, why does Spiral Zetsu have ocular boosting powers? Well, Tebow Youth Groups showed in his thread that Spiral Zetsu is actually the empty shell of the Fruit grown from the Gedo Mazou.



The Fruit gave the Rinnegan to Hagaromo, so clearly it has ocular boosting powers. The shell of the Fruit( Spiral Zetsu) in turn has occur boosting powers as well, just not as great. This is why Obito received Kamui when he wore Spiral Zetsu.

If Obito wasn’t wearing Spiral Zetsu, then he could very well have developed different MS abilities.





Now to Madara, why isn’t Madara wearing Spiral Zetsu if it boosts ocular powers? Because, as mentioned before, it is a catalyst. It only works during critical moments such as activating a Sharingan, MS, EMS or Rinnegan. Since Madara already gone through those stages, wearing Spiral Zetsu at this point wouldn’t do him much good.

But wearing Spiral Zetsu at the next critical point, becoming the Juubi Jin, does make a difference. Obito didn’t have a boost in ocular powers by being the Juubi Jin because, 1) he’s not the original owner of the Rinnegan, 2) his Sharingan is too far removed in the evolutionary line for the Juubi to directly increase it’s powers.

But Madara, by virtue of being a original Rinnegan user, and the Rinnegan directly connected to the Juubi, would get a ocular boost from the Juubi. That is why he waiting to become the Juubi Jin. He is going to be wearing Spiral Zetsu as he absorbs the Juubi, making Spiral Zetsu the catalyst that would boost Madara to levels far beyond what Juubito accomplished.

That is why the Gedo Mazou disappeared!! Madara is waiting for Spiral Zetsu to develop!

Also notice that the Fruit has two spirals and Spiral Zetsu has only one.

You must be registered for see images

Perhaps another possibility is that Madara is developing Spiral Zetsu to be a complete Fruit with two Spirals.

With this hypothesis, Madara will attach the more completed Spiral Zetsu to the Shinju to develop the Fruit completely, then eat it, using it’s nutrients as the Catalyst he needs and then becoming the Juubi Jin.



I will be editing this throughout the week. So please keep updated.

or perhaps he only had one eye to use and thats the best setup. it may have helped him not go blind, but there was 0 evidence to suggest it powered it up.

 

[Senju Bean]

Many statements have been made on your behalf without a shred of evidence backing it up in the slightest.
Just assumptions with no actual depth or reasoning.


Spiral Zetsu is a genetically identical to Hashriama
We also have no idea how old that zetsu is though given the times we have seen him he can easily be accounted as one of the first zetsu.

Giving him more time to evolve and adapt to the powers he controls.

There is no reason to think or discern that he amplifies ocular powers its his psychical energy that boost obito's body and sustains his dojustu not trough some mystic connection.

Then why the same exact pattern?

Obito's teleportation pattern is counter clockwise spiral, the same as Spiral Zetsu.

 

[thegame]

Thanks for linking to that other theory, it was truly well formulated. However, basing one theory on another just makes it so much less plausible, as theories are rarely 100% correct. Possibly some of it may be right, but rarely all parts of it.

Also I agree with others, that sprial zetsu just gave a physical boost to Obito.

The reason Obito forms the spirals, when appearing or disappearing may just be due to the shape of his mask as well as the shape of his sharingan.

You are of course correct, that it is a 'wonder' how it has the exact same shape as spiral zetsu, but this is an old debate, which is still unsolved, but there are of course several possibilities, and some parts of your theory might be possible as well.

 

[dark legion]

1. Nice thread

2. I may approve with u , with the boosting power -- even that it isn't a proof , S.Z boosted Obito's power, and probably He is boosting Yamato's Mokuton power (if S.Z is shielding Yamato)

3. S.Z appearance began very lately , which means he is important to something , and the fact that it disappeared with no clue makes it more mystical ,, than his reappearance in the last chapter means that Kishi reserved a place for him .

4.SZ can use mokuton ( isn't a clue , but still isn't eliminated from your theory )

5.The picture of The fruit isn't that clear to be as a fact for the Spirals and their connection with SZ.

5. What's the difference between Spiral Zetsu and other Ordinary Zetsu ?

 

[l3m0npl3dg3]

the theories on this site be too well thought up and the manga always has a simple explanation

 

[Senju Bean]

1. Nice thread

2. I may approve with u , with the boosting power -- even that it isn't a proof , S.Z boosted Obito's power, and probably He is boosting Yamato's Mokuton power (if S.Z is shielding Yamato)

3. S.Z appearance began very lately , which means he is important to something , and the fact that it disappeared with no clue makes it more mystical ,, than his reappearance in the last chapter means that Kishi reserved a place for him .

4.SZ can use mokuton ( isn't a clue , but still isn't eliminated from your theory )

5.The picture of The fruit isn't that clear to be as a fact for the Spirals and their connection with SZ.

5. What's the difference between Spiral Zetsu and other Ordinary Zetsu ?

1. Thanks

2. I think he might be boosting Yamato's power, but in turn, helps S.Z develop as a Fruit

3. Yes, and what better way than to have him be a degraded form of the Fruit? Having him to be a clone of Hashirama is not good for the plot since Hashirama is rendered useless, and is losing his importance in the story. I think Hashirama's DNA are used to develop a empty Fruit, but the failiures just turn out to be degraded Hashirama clones.

4. Yes, but if he is a degraded Fruit, then it makes sense.

5. They are failures of Madara's experiment: to grow an empty fruit shell.

 

[Saikyokami]

Obito "slipped" through those rocks Madara said so.
Meaning he had kamui even if an unconsecrated version, far before he awakened his MS, or even before spiral zetsu was made (who was shown being made)

 

[VongolaX]

The reason for Obito's excessive use for kamui, is because he has senju DNA fused within half his body.

Uchiha MS techniques exhausts the users physical energy. (Kakashi is a fine example of that).

Now that Obito has the DNA to boost his physical energy, there is no stamina depletion.

He can spam and extend the durability of any Justu.

Like his juubi size katon

 

[Senju Bean]

Obito "slipped" through those rocks Madara said so.
Meaning he had kamui even if an unconsecrated version, far before he awakened his MS, or even before spiral zetsu was made (who was shown being made)

Or perhaps, it was Spiral Zetsu that saved him. Obito could be one of Madara's experiments.

 

[Transcendence]

What debunks this whole theory is what happened to Obito while he was under the boulder. He wouldn't have developed any other Mangekyou abilities other than Kamui because he had already "used it" (subconsciously) when he phased through the boulders into Madara's cave. It's possible that Spiral amplified Kamui at the point that Obito was wearing him, but that's as far as the relations go for Kamui and Spiral.​

 

[Senju Bean]

What debunks this whole theory is what happened to Obito while he was under the boulder. He wouldn't have developed any other Mangekyou abilities other than Kamui because he had already "used it" (subconsciously) when he phased through the boulders into Madara's cave. It's possible that Spiral amplified Kamui at the point that Obito was wearing him, but that's as far as the relations go for Kamui and Spiral.​

You're right. I was always thinking about whether Spiral Zetsu created Kamui or whether Obito had it in the first place. Now this decides it. Obito's MS had an affinity towards ST techs all along. I edited the post to account for that. Thanks.

 

[thegame]

What debunks this whole theory is what happened to Obito while he was under the boulder. He wouldn't have developed any other Mangekyou abilities other than Kamui because he had already "used it" (subconsciously) when he phased through the boulders into Madara's cave. It's possible that Spiral amplified Kamui at the point that Obito was wearing him, but that's as far as the relations go for Kamui and Spiral.​

Was this ever said? As I recall Madara only said, he was lucky and ended up in his cave. As the boulders fell, he could have been lucky and avoided further damage. Of course this goes against any sense of probability, but you can't really know, how he survived, unless it was actually said by Kishi. So it wouldn't debunk the theory, as it's not a fact (unless it was said?).

 

[Neonian]

I like that Tobi better