I put together the main theory thread suggesting that Obito was Tobi on *********** years ago. The first couple thousand comments were abuse and Mangafact checkers telling me that Obito was dead and buried. I might not be right now but I’ve always had a pretty good sense of when to ignore Kishi’s misdirection.
There is a big difference between saying chakra beasts and kurama specifically, because Bee's chakra didn't have the same effect. The fact you ignore important points like these and dwell on hunches is why most of your theories are failures.
He can either be a tree or zetsu. He can't be both. One is sentient being with a will, the other is an immobile plant. In spiral's case he's neither, cuz he shriviled up and died. There is no indication he was growing into a tree at all.
First up, both White Zetsus and Mokuton are converted into living trees in the presence of Naruto when he wears his Chakra Cloak…
Yamato’s Mokuton:
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White Zetsus:
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Return from the Pure Land:
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This doesn’t happen because of anything special about Kurama but because of the overabundance of Yang Chakra in Naruto. Naruto is not the first to develop a chakra cloak. Asura had the Chakra Cloak first and as far as we are aware he was never a Jinchuuriki:
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Asura’s inherited his father’s Yang Chakra and with it strong life forces:
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Likewise all of Asura’s descendants inherited strong Yang Chakra. Hashirama only had Yang chakra according to the new Databook:
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While the Uzumaki (also heirs to Asura and relatives of the Senju) are renowned for their strong life forces (Yang Chakra):
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When Minato sealed Kurama in Naruto, he only sealed Kurama’s Yang Chakra in his son:
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What breathes life into Zetsu and Mokuton, turning them into trees is the Yang Chakra radiating Life Force from Naruto’s Chakra Cloak.
Yamato is famous for his spooky eyes but ever since he was kidnapped his eyes have been pure black. There is no sign that Yamato returned to the Leaf after the war. Yamato’s story might become more significant in a part 3…
Spooky Eyes:
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Black Eyes when released from SZ:
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Black Eyes after IT:
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Theory on Yamato
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Anyway, I've got three theories on who Spiral might be (there isn't enough to make my mind up on which one is best yet). When I get the chance I'll update them and post them here. There might not be a character called Tobidara, but I agree with Minamoto to the extent that I think both Madara and Obito were played and not just by BZ but SZ as well. I really don't understand the abuse his theories get.
Draxus... You're actually epic. I'd give you rep if I could hahaha.
Rabbit Teeth, you make some awesome points I understand where you're coming from completely and I understand that Kishi left some things to have an ambiguous ending.
But.
You say the Zetsus reacted to Naruto's extreme Yang Chakra... Yet whilst the IT is being released, Spiral Zetsu is nowhere near Naruto (as far as I know) and Naruto isn't even in Cloak form, therefore SZ turning into a tree due to Yang Chakra might not be true at all, but I admire the theory and source.. Me gusta! >
I think that whilst wrapping up the manga and 'trying' to tie up loose end, Kishi got a bit lazy with a few panels and didn't show the full events (Or after-events).. Then again, I thought it might've been pretty obvious that certain things - like Spiral Zetsu dying - was a bit obvious and didn't need to be looked into as much.
Again though, awesome theory but ye, I think it may be a long run
Draxus... You're actually epic. I'd give you rep if I could hahaha.
Rabbit Teeth, you make some awesome points I understand where you're coming from completely and I understand that Kishi left some things to have an ambiguous ending.
But.
You say the Zetsus reacted to Naruto's extreme Yang Chakra... Yet whilst the IT is being released, Spiral Zetsu is nowhere near Naruto (as far as I know) and Naruto isn't even in Cloak form, therefore SZ turning into a tree due to Yang Chakra might not be true at all, but I admire the theory and source.. Me gusta! >
I think that whilst wrapping up the manga and 'trying' to tie up loose end, Kishi got a bit lazy with a few panels and didn't show the full events (Or after-events).. Then again, I thought it might've been pretty obvious that certain things - like Spiral Zetsu dying - was a bit obvious and didn't need to be looked into as much.
Again though, awesome theory but ye, I think it may be a long run
Thanks. We don't really get a good look at how IT was undone. What you say makes sense but my point is more that Yang chakra is a better explanation than generic Kyuubi chakra. It's a moot point really - I was just putting in my two cents.
I agree, Spiral can take over his passengers at will. A lot of the statements made by Tobi do not fit Obito … but I still think most of Tobi was Obito. There’s room for a lot of opinions on the matter.
It's been raining all weekend so far where I am which left me with too much time on my hands - here's my overly long interpretation of the character. If anyone else has ideas on Spiral feel free to share / link to other threads on the subject below … though it depends on a leap of faith in a Part 3 coming after the Genin Gaiden of the New Era Project.
Guruguru
As far as the prospects of a Part 3 go, one of the prime candidates as a future antagonist is Spiral Zetsu. Spiral is a deceptively complicated character that Kishi hasn’t even begun to unravel even though last we saw him he was literally unraveling:
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I’ve read a lot of good ideas on the character but here’s an overview of how I’d breakdown the character…
Background
Guruguru is the name that Kishi first attached to Spiral Zetsu. This name first appeared in one of the articles that accompanies the weekly chapter in Shonen Jump:
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Personally, I don’t think that Guruguru is a real name. It translates as Round and Round. Essentially Guruguru is a description, the same way that most English speaking readers identify him as Spiral Zetsu / Spiral or just SZ. Lately the 4th Databook has identified Guruguru as Tobi:
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This does not mean that Obito is not Tobi. The name Tobi is clearly derived from Obito. It would seem that Tobi was a combination of Guruguru and Obito. Essentially Kishi crossed their names together (Tobitobi / Obitobito) and then shortened it (Tobitobi or Obitobito – apparently this works in Japanese as well).
This dual personality helps explain some of Tobi’s odd behaviour. Obito was mostly driven by revenge and the desire to replace real life with a dream world. At times Tobi’s behaviour has seemed out of character with the dark motives of Obito. It would seem that the light relief version of Tobi was in fact Spiral taking over Obito’s body. When we were first introduced to Spiral as a separate entity he fit this goofball character much better than Obito…
Spiral as a Goof (NB Bolt uses the same nickname for Kakashi on the Hokage Monument as Obito):
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Tobi as a Goof:
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We know that Spiral can take command of his insides against their will because we have seen this happen with Yamato:
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Spiral and Obito co-operated in order to achieve the Moon’s Eye Plan but it is apparent that Spiral knew more about Infinite Tsukuyomi than either Obito or Madara. Before Obito fused with Spiral he was far less trusting about the truth of the Moon’s Eye Plan:
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Some of Tobi’s statement’s seem to show that Spiral knew much more about the consequences of Infinite Tsukuyomi than Obito appreciated before he was fused and before he had had his hopes dashed by the conspiracy to kill Rin:
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So who is Spiral Zetsu? A lot of you will have read the Tobidara theory which suggests that Spiral is a cross between Obito (Tobi) and Madara (Dara) which when merged become Tobidara (Minamoto can fill you in more if you haven’t read any of his threads – I would add a link but I don’t know which of his threads he considers best conveys his ideas – please link)
While I don’t necessarily share the overarching conclusion I agree with a lot of the material that supports that idea. I think Spiral’s identity is wide open for debate but I thought I’d narrow down the field to what I consider the best prospects…
Spiral as Angry Plant
Spiral is made of living mokuton. All White Zetsu were made by cultivating the cells of Hashirama with the Demonic Statue of the Outer Path (the Gedo Mazo):
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White Zetsu can be grown with the chakra of fallen ninja:
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Dead bodies can be reconstituted into fresh White Zetsu or used to supercharge their mokuton:
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While the Bijuu can be converted into large numbers of WZ:
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The Bijuu themselves were made by splitting the chakra of the original Juubi into tailed beasts. The chakra from the Bijuu once belonged to dead ninjas:
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One enduring theory about Spiral Zetsu (not my original idea) is that he is the remains of the original Shinju’s Fruit and in particular the skin of the fruit (NB the Spiral Design on the skin):
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However, this Spiral Design does not correspond to more reliable depictions of the Shinju Fruit that have more in common with the concentric circles of Hagoromo’s Rinnegan:
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Nonetheless, some of the statements made by Tobi seem to be more fitting to Spiral Zetsu where he describes himself as an empty shell:
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… and as incomplete:
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When Tobi talks of uniting all chakra into “the One”:
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It might be Spiral talking as the original plant that first went on a rampage and, according to Madara, wanted the same:
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The Lotus Uniting
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At this moment it is worth remembering that the Juubi was not just Kaguya – but the Shinju (and perhaps something else …the Demon?) as well:
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When Madara is betrayed by Black Zetsu we find out that Madara was himself under another’s illusion:
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Perhaps Madara was never really in charge. He may well have been anchored to the regrown Shinju from the moment that he was defeated (and killed – he resurrected himself with Izanagi) by Hashirama:
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Also note that Madara was lent power by the plant before he was converted into Kaguya by Black Zetsu. This to me suggests that Kaguya and the Shinju might be separate entities…
Madara lent power by the Tree
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Madara turned into Kaguya by BZ:
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I don’t think it’s a sure thing but it is definitely possible that Spiral could be the original Angry Shinju…
Spiral as Reconstituted Dead Ninja
The origins of Spiral are shrouded. While I think it’s possible that Spiral is and always has been a plant (related to or actually the Shinju), it is also possible that Spiral was once a human. All White Zetsus were once human according to Obito and Black Zetsu:
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While most White Zetsus could simply be clones that have lost their original identity, Spiral seems to have retained some of his original personality. Spiral could literally be any dead ninja but there are two candidates who stand out above the rest that might have a grudge against Sasuke worthy of a Part 3.
The First candidate is Izuna. We never really found out what happened to Izuna. We saw him suffer a supposedly mortal wound on the battlefield at Tobirama’s hands:
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…but it is unclear why Izuna died. Izuna was wounded sure enough but he was still talking and mobile before he left the battlefield for the last time (telling his brother not to make peace):
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According to Itachi, Izuna had MS which should have meant that Izuna had access to Izanagi. It is not at all clear whether Izuna was murdered by Madara in order to cure his diminishing eyesight:
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… or whether Izuna died for some other reason. Nevertheless Madara certainly bore a grudge against Tobirama for his brother’s death:
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We know that Madara was manipulated by BZ. I think there is a possibility that BZ murdered Izuna in order to corrupt Madara…in other words perhaps BZ interfered before recovering Madara’s body after the Valley of the End:
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It may be that one of the first dead bodies converted into a WZ was Izuna and that Spiral’s poor copy of Hashirama was due to a lack of experience at creating clones:
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If Izuna were Spiral Zetsu then he would have every reason to hold a grudge against Sasuke not only for helping stop his brother but for reconciling the Uchiha and Senju:
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Madara also had too many Sharingan. Madara used up one of his eyes in order to revive himself postmortem using Izanagi:
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Madara gave away two eyes to Nagato:
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When Madara met Obito (after giving away his original eyes) he still had one Sharingan left:
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Perhaps Madara was able to recover his brother’s eyes without using them up in activating his Eternal Mangekyou Sharingan (we never did learn exactly how EMS works). Alternatively perhaps Madara killed one of his own clan for an extra set of eyes (this was never resolved – anyone with the new Databook feel free to chip in). The remains of Izuna’s body could have been the first step in building the WZ army.
An alternative explanation (and my preferred one) is that Spiral could be the remains of the original Izuna. Izuna had Spiral Eyes and well… Guruguru is a spiral emanating from one eye:
Spiral Eyes
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Sasuke as the host to the chakra of Indra only developed one Sharinnegan – the opposing eye to the socket from which Spiral unfurls (… as though only half of Indra’s chakra was able to transmigrate):
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Hagororomo explained to Naruto that Indra and Asura’s bodies were destroyed (which seems like an odd thing to mention to me):
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I think that it is possible that Izuna and Asura fell on the battlefield to their father after he started transform into a second coming of the Juubi:
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but before he had managed to seal his body into the moon:
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Hagoromo cryptically refers to having gone down the wrong path as a Jinchuuriki (regret’s?)
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There are two types of White Zetsu. There is the one that despite apparently being cloned from Hashirama’s cells still look more like Asura … the mass produced ones:
Front
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Profile:
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This Zetsu also parallels Asura’s techniques – sharing chakra and counting on lots of individuals working in concert:
Asura:
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Asura Sharing Chakra:
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The other Zetsu is an individual who relies on his own power though he can multiply the abilities of fresh insides:
Indra Solo
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Indra’s Ethos
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Spiral force multiplying Obito:
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Spiral force multiplying Yamato (NB Guruguru has five nature transformations / Yamato had two):
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While Izuna might have a generic motive against Sasuke (and the rest of the Allied Shinobi Army) after the war, Indra would have a special grudge against Sasuke for killing the original White Zetsu, the reconstituted Asura:
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When Spiral Zetsu and Zetsu Prime are first shown they always appear together as though they are brothers:
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Tobi… Tobi might not be such a good guy after all
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…then again maybe he was nothing more than a mask
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I admit I might be taking speculation to extremes but I think the theory is plausible. If anyone has any other ideas I’d like to hear them . It’ll be interesting to see what happens when the New Era Project kicks off. Until then, thanks for reading and all the comments.
That Star
I should probably have noticed this a lot sooner but it only just dawned on me. The Star that I think represents Ninjutsu that appears on the opening and closing pages of the Manga as well as on Sasuke’s Cursed Seal Mode and the Uchiha Police Symbol …
Opening
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Closing
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Sasuke:
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Fugaku’s Badge:
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Well, it could be an homage to another late great series, Fist of the North Star, that ran in Weekly Shonen Jump years ago (it was the first anime I ever came across on late night TV). The Star is the symbol of Nanto Seiken … the rival school of martial arts to that of the hero Kenshiro. The Star (the Southern Cross) is the symbol of the antagonist Shin (he branded his subjects with the symbol and had the Star on his banners):
Fist of the North Star:
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Southern Cross:
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Just another easter egg - I don't know whether many people even know the series but it was great (Mad Max with martial arts and gruesome finishers… what's not to love). Kishi has borrowed a lot from the series.
Your prediction came true. If Kishi wanted to develop the story of Spiral further then I think he'll need to provide some backstory to the character. Spiral is the focus of the End Teaser of Part 2. Black Zetsu was the focus of the End Teaser from Part 1:
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In order to make the character grow I think he needs a backstory (like the possibilities of Indra / Izuna / the Shinju I spell out).
Having Zetsu integrated into your body isn't a guarantee of turning evil. Mokuton in the right hands can be good. That said, If Mokuton / Zetsu were outright evil then I'd worry about Naruto since he now has a Zetsu hand. It could be like Dr Strangelove (the eponymous character from Stanley Kubrick's movie of the same name - by way of background he is a former Nazi Scientist whose experiments seem to have left him with a Nazi arm that has a mind of its own):
Planning for the Future after Nuclear War
[video=youtube;JaTR46iU1Do]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JaTR46iU1Do[/video]
Which might explain what Naruto is doing on his "comppuuda". Naruto preparing names for the survivors of the apocalypse to find safety in the mine shafts (Hinata check, Sakura check, Ino check, TenTen … hmm everybody hates Tenten … uncheck)…
Tap, Tap, Tap:
Minato is the character on the frog. Minato summons Gamabunta to squash the nine tails before he seals him using the dead demon seal:
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The Star might represent Ninjutsu but that doesn't make all who've relied on it evil. The whole era was dominated by Ninjutsu it's part of what Naruto had to find the answer to and what the New Era Project is all about:
Thanks, I was sure that somebody here would have written an Izuna thread about Spiral. I vaguely remember you posted a link to the thread about the shinju fruit skin being Spiral as well. I can't remember whether it was your own thread or somebody else's that you linked to. I took some liberties in putting my own spin on those ideas (only the Indra theory was mine - no wonder it's my favourite), hope you don't mind. Somebody should put together a catalogue of theories, grouping them by topic (previous sites I've been on have had them … but I wouldn't know where to start).
Anyway…. this is how Dr Strangelove ends (there's hope for Guy yet...)
