[Tier] Speed Tier List

[BLAZE]

Look up the explanation Naruto received on how to mold chakra. Real taijutsu doesn't use chakra.

You mean the explanation Sakura gave

 

[KidGamer65]

Lol this kid really is retarded.

 

[Curse Mark]

You mean the explanation Sakura gave

The one Ebisu gave.

Lol this kid really is retarded.

Who?

 

[Icelerate]

And yet Madara and Mu and several others are in the same position yet other feats and statements blatantly put their reaction speed not on par.

Madara and Mu weren't trying to blitz. If Ay and Tsunade were simply approaching them, you'd have a point but they got ported and immediately launched their attack without expecting Madara and Mu to be right in front of them. Anyway I've seen you use Sasuke attacking alongside Naruto to demonstrate speed equality so isn't this a contradiction?

And this doesn't matter because the Susanoo wasn't in motion let alone moving anywhere near that speed when Ay hit it, BEFORE Tsunade reached it, as the Manga shows. And since WD had finished moving and vanished by the time Tsunade made her move, there's no way or reason to claim that she was moving faster than something moving faster than WD.

The time gap between when Tsunade hit it and when Ay hit it

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so the average velocity of the susanoo after getting spit out of the WD is roughly equal to its instantaneous velocity before Ay hit it. Proof that WD had finished moving and had vanished?

No, he didn't just slow it down. He crashed into it and Karate Chopped it. If it had any motion left in it then Ay wouldn't be coming forward after the hit, he would be going backward.

Ay wasn't coming forward after the hit as he didn't have any URL="http://narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/577/6/"]speed lines after hitting susanoo[/URL] so the susanoo was sent forward by Ay's punch but before it could even move a meter away, Tsunade punched it. How is this not a speed feat?

Byakugo increases Ninjutsu scale by increasing the amount of chakra poured into the jutsu. If that is possible with Shunshin then it's possible for them to do this, but considering that process is automatic for them seeing the boost they get in their CES, I'm gonna go ahead and say that the difference isn't as large as you'd think it'd be.

Compare part one Tsunade's speed before releasing her seal and after releasing her seal. At best Tsunade was on par with part one Kabuto before he took a soldier pill based on her not being able to land a single hit and

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. Same goes for Orochimaru because he too was Tsunade's target. After releasing the Yin seal, Tsunade proved to be faster than Orochimaru (

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)(

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). She also produced enough

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all the while carrying his sword which is much heavier than Tsunade herself. While having the yin seal naturally boosts their CES a lot, some of the boost is from the fact that before making the YS, Sakura had to constantly siphon off chakra to that seal (

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) so the natural boost of the seal isn't as large as you're making out to be.

 

[4 Sword Style]

You're making an argument from ignorance by proposing that Madara not stating a reason for allowing lee's attack to succeed must mean that he couldn't react to it despite Madara's abilities, reflexes and Douryoku all having provided sufficient feats of physical achievement to indicate that he would have been capable of reacting to the attack but he didn't, again, because as he himself implied: he was simply taking hits because he could and was even using it to his advantage as a means to lower the Kages determination.


The Sharingan using chakra doesn't mean it's a Ninjutsu. Gai's attacks also use Chakra and they're not Ninjutsu. Absorbing chakra from a chakra source to be fueled into a Jutsu type doesn't prove that "Doujutsu" is a type of "Ninjutsu". Anything else? ​

Obviously you don't even know what the original point was and why we were even discussing weather the Sharingan was a Ninjutsu or not.

As I said, whatever you want to classify it as has no bearing on the real point

Lol this kid really is retarded.

Be a man and actually quote me next time.

 

[BLAZE]

The one Ebisu gave.

read
1.He is talking about Lee
2. He explicitly says "although there are some exception"

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[~Ethereal~]

Curiosity got the better of me.

 

[Curse Mark]

read
1.He is talking about Lee
2. He explicitly says "although there are some exception"

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The exceptions being taijutsu that use chakra ie- nintai

 

[NarutoX28]

Since when was Gentle Fist considered Nin-Taijutsu?

 

[Curse Mark]

Since when was Gentle Fist considered Nin-Taijutsu?

It's been referred to as Taijutsu by Might Guy, etc. Just getting into technicalities since it was said Taijutsu doesn't use chakra and there are acceptions to that (nin-taijutsu). Would make sense for it to be considered nin-tai

 

[KidGamer65]

No you havnt, you don't have a counter. You havnt evem provided argument other than "Sharingan isnt a Ninjutsu". Which i shouldnt have to explain how fucking stupid that sounds

Ill accept your concession though.

Already addressed this entire point.

Dont know where you got this from. Wasn't even in my post.

No shit you oblivious fucking trash of a poster. That's me quoting my own post instead of typing it again since you have a bad habit of ignoring argumentation that you don't agree with.

Except all this irrelevant. Your argument is that Madara let himself be nlitzed, which has no grounds. Forget Obito and FRS, I don't even know why your holding on to this point when it has nothing to do with Madara.

Lee blitzed him in the manga. I could care less about your opinion.

Concession accepted.

Lee=FRS in speed.
Deva, 3rd Raikage and Madara himself have all dodged/reacted to FRS in the past.

"It has nothing to do with Madara" is probably the stupidest thing I've read in this post, but again, you have pretty much shown me you are just another garbage poster in the cesspool known as Narutobase so I'm not really surprised.

Lee doesn't move fast enough to blitz Madara. I don't give a flying rat's ass about your opinion.

Except you do. You need to provide evidence that his tracking improved before he got the cloak, as Kurama's chakra boosted the power of Sasuke's eyes, and thus the his precog and other related abilities

Go ahead and rage quit this argument like you did the last one. You'll keep holding these L's.

Addressed. You've given no counter. Concession accepted.

 

[KidGamer65]

Madara and Mu weren't trying to blitz. If Ay and Tsunade were simply approaching them, you'd have a point but they got ported and immediately launched their attack without expecting Madara and Mu to be right in front of them. Anyway I've seen you use Sasuke attacking alongside Naruto to demonstrate speed equality so isn't this a contradiction?

So? Madara and Mu charged and from what we can see there's no reason to believe that either would be holding back, but from external feats we can tell that Madara obviously wasn't moving at top speed as he is far faster than Mu.

Are there feats that make Naruto and Sasuke's scans invalid? No. There aren't.

The time gap between when Tsunade hit it and when Ay hit it

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so the average velocity of the susanoo after getting spit out of the WD is roughly equal to its instantaneous velocity before Ay hit it. Proof that WD had finished moving and had vanished?

Last sentence can be answered by simply looking at the scan. If WD was still moving Madara would be in the dragon and not away from the dragon.

Ay wasn't coming forward after the hit as he didn't have any URL="http://narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/577/6/"]speed lines after hitting susanoo[/URL] so the susanoo was sent forward by Ay's punch but before it could even move a meter away, Tsunade punched it. How is this not a speed feat?

What are you even talking about? Speed lines are only shown when someone is moving high speed first of all. Movement lines are what depict movement and you can see lines on Ay's body and on Tsunade's body. So no, they were both in motion, and Ay wasn't moving backwards. Not sure where the feat is here.

-No, Susanoo wasn't sent forward by Ay's Karate Chop. Literally nothing implies that.
-Even if it was, Tsunade being able to hit it before it can move a meter is irrelevant since you'd have to show that the speed it'd be sent away at would be worth noting, and you'd have to prove that Tsunade charged Susanoo right when Ay hit it even though she had any time after Mei intervened to do something.

It's clear that there is no speed feat here.

Compare part one Tsunade's speed before releasing her seal and after releasing her seal. At best Tsunade was on par with part one Kabuto before he took a soldier pill based on her not being able to land a single hit and

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. Same goes for Orochimaru because he too was Tsunade's target. After releasing the Yin seal, Tsunade proved to be faster than Orochimaru (

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)(

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). She also produced enough

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all the while carrying his sword which is much heavier than Tsunade herself. While having the yin seal naturally boosts their CES a lot, some of the boost is from the fact that before making the YS, Sakura had to constantly siphon off chakra to that seal (

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) so the natural boost of the seal isn't as large as you're making out to be.

There is no scan here that shows her outspeeding Orochimaru. :lol He was surprised her trembling stopped and that's when she managed to land a surprise hit. Nothing to do with speed, at least in the sense of who was faster than who.

-The jumping feat doesn't matter as there's nothing that shows she couldn't have done it before.

 

[RedRobin]

So? Madara and Mu charged and from what we can see there's no reason to believe that either would be holding back, but from external feats we can tell that Madara obviously wasn't moving at top speed as he is far faster than Mu.

No reason to discredit the feat. Tsunade moved with Ay against Madara and Mu. I fail to see how you can discredit her speed when she was moving with and against top tier speedsters.

Icelerate pretty much ended that argument here

you'd have a point but they got ported and immediately launched their attack without expecting Madara and Mu to be right in front of them.

Last sentence can be answered by simply looking at the scan. If WD was still moving Madara would be in the dragon and not away from the dragon.

@bold Except Mei pushed Madara out with the tongue of the dragon.

What are you even talking about? Speed lines are only shown when someone is moving high speed first of all. Movement lines are what depict movement and you can see lines on Ay's body and on Tsunade's body. So no, they were both in motion, and Ay wasn't moving backwards. Not sure where the feat is here.

-No, Susanoo wasn't sent forward by Ay's Karate Chop. Literally nothing implies that.
-Even if it was, Tsunade being able to hit it before it can move a meter is irrelevant since you'd have to show that the speed it'd be sent away at would be worth noting, and you'd have to prove that Tsunade charged Susanoo right when Ay hit it even though she had any time after Mei intervened to do something.

@bold which is the point. If it was sent forward that would imply there was time between the moment Ay hits and Tsunade does.

@Underline Just look at the last time Ay and Onoki landed a hit together. That sent Susano far.

Madara reacts

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and Tsunade then lands the kick. Tsunade was so fast Madara didnt even have time to look forward. This shows Tsunade landed the kick just after Ay landed his hit.

Mei

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giant amounts of water. No reason and nothing to show Tsunade was somehow behind her the whole time. Meaning she crossed the distance that the water dragon did and landed the hit just after Ay. Its a great feat.

-The jumping feat doesn't matter as there's nothing that shows she couldn't have done it before.

True but why again discredit the feat. There is nothing to show she couldnt have done it before but beyond that its an incredible feat.

 

[KidGamer65]

No reason to discredit the feat. Tsunade moved with Ay against Madara and Mu. I fail to see how you can discredit her speed when she was moving with and against top tier speedsters.

Icelerate pretty much ended that argument here

Nothing to address here since you are literally repeating what he already said without actually addressing anything.

@bold Except Mei pushed Madara out with the tongue of the dragon.

And this matters how?

@bold which is the point. If it was sent forward that would imply there was time between the moment Ay hits and Tsunade does.

No, it's not the point. You have no point. Neither does he. The only way you have a point is if Tsunade managed to hit it before the Susanoo could move from Ay's hit even though I've yet to see any reasoning from either of you as to why Ay's Karate Chop would make Susanoo move any significant distance in the first place.

@Underline Just look at the last time Ay and Onoki landed a hit together. That sent Susano far.

Punch=/=Chop. So no. The last hit blew a hole in Madara's V2 Susanoo while the chop only cracked Ribcage.

Madara reacts

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and Tsunade then lands the kick. Tsunade was so fast Madara didnt even have time to look forward. This shows Tsunade landed the kick just after Ay landed his hit.

What you are saying literally makes no sense. Madara would have no reason to look forward until Tsunade hits his Susanoo from the front as nothing would be happening in front of him. You are grasping at straws and it's blatantly obvious. If this is what we are going to do then you can just stop replying now.

Mei

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giant amounts of water.

Irrelevant.

No reason and nothing to show Tsunade was somehow behind her the whole time.

Once again, you have no idea what you are talking about. Why would Tsunade be behind her the whole time? The fact of the matter is, Tsunade had from that moment till the moment Ay hit Susanoo, including everything inbetween, to get to Madara. So claiming that she departed and arrived right before Ay landed his hit is based on nothing.

Meaning she crossed the distance that the water dragon did and landed the hit just after Ay. Its a great feat.

Based on literally nothing.

True but why again discredit the feat. There is nothing to show she couldnt have done it before but beyond that its an incredible feat.

Lol what are you talking about? Me saying that she could've done it before isn't me discrediting the feat. It's me saying that the feat doesn't prove his main point.

 

[BLAZE]

The exceptions being taijutsu that use chakra ie- nintai

no chakra is not required for pure martial art while CES,Gentle Fist,Eight gates,coral punch or boil release punch it requires chakra
even one of oldest form of taijutsu that kaguya uses requires chakra

Eighty Gods Vacuum Attack (八十神空撃, Yasogami Kūgeki) is a Kekkei Mora taijutsu used by Kaguya, made possible by her mastery of chakra. She loads chakra into her palm, and then unleashes it as a barrage of countless fists. The fist attacks can also be used defensively, and when coupled with Kaguya's perfect dojutsu, it has the potential to become the strongest offensive ability. The Hyuga clan uses a similar vacuum palm attack, Eight Trigrams Vacuum Palm, but there is a wide gulf in power between the two.

 

[DemonicAvenger]

Yooooo! I'm back.

@KG & 4SS

I'm gonna have to agree with 4SS that the cloak would have improved his precognition. Some of his reasoning is really wrong though. The main point though is that having a more potent chakra source fueling his eyes would naturally increases his effectiveness with his Sharingan, and derived abilities/jutsu.

Though KG is technically right on the latter part. The cloak helped lv his eyes up to where he could unlock PS and use it even after he lost the boost.


Then there's VOTE2 scaling. Naruto showed superior reactions and all around much better speed, though some of the former could be do to his having a better form of chakra sensing than what he scales down to.

So in all I believe your both right in a way (but KG has already pointed out the flaws in 4SS argument). I'm inclined to believe the following is how they stack up

Reactions: EMS Sasuke (pre-cloak) = KCM Naruto < EMS Sasuke (post cloak) = BM Naruto < EMS Sasuke (w/ cloak) = BSM Naruto

I'll note that Naruto keeps an advantage in shunshin across the board while their combat speed should be similar (non chakra enhanced speed)


Btw KG we had a pretty good discussion going in that last speed thread from awile back. Wanna pick it up here? It's relevant and I'd rather not necro

 

[Curse Mark]

no chakra is not required for pure martial art while CES,Gentle Fist,Eight gates,coral punch or boil release punch it requires chakra
even one of oldest form of taijutsu that kaguya uses requires chakra

Those would all be exceptions to the rule that taijutsu requires chakra- how would that not be nintai? Also just because Kaguya used it doesn't mean it's the oldest form. The oldest form of taijutsu should have preceded ninjutsu.

 

[BLAZE]

Those would all be exceptions to the rule that taijutsu requires chakra- how would that not be nintai?

Becoz DB said so and Kishi said so
All Taijutsu forms uses chakra

Also just because Kaguya used it doesn't mean it's the oldest form. The oldest form of taijutsu should have preceded ninjutsu.

Do you even know that the term Ninjutsu orignated from Indra

 

[4 Sword Style]

Yooooo! I'm back.

@KG & 4SS

I'm gonna have to agree with 4SS that the cloak would have improved his precognition. Some of his reasoning is really wrong though. The main point though is that having a more potent chakra source fueling his eyes would naturally increases his effectiveness with his Sharingan, and derived abilities/jutsu.

Though KG is technically right on the latter part. The cloak helped lv his eyes up to where he could unlock PS and use it even after he lost the boost.


Then there's VOTE2 scaling. Naruto showed superior reactions and all around much better speed, though some of the former could be do to his having a better form of chakra sensing than what he scales down to.

So in all I believe your both right in a way (but KG has already pointed out the flaws in 4SS argument). I'm inclined to believe the following is how they stack up

Reactions: EMS Sasuke (pre-cloak) = KCM Naruto < EMS Sasuke (post cloak) = BM Naruto < EMS Sasuke (w/ cloak) = BSM Naruto

I'll note that Naruto keeps an advantage in shunshin across the board while their combat speed should be similar (non chakra enhanced speed)


Btw KG we had a pretty good discussion going in that last speed thread from awile back. Wanna pick it up here? It's relevant and I'd rather not necro

Same thing I told him. Sasuke doesn't have the feats to suggest that anything improved without the cloak, his Sharingan is capable of any more than when he was beside KCM Naruto.

He hasn't pointed out any flaws eirher. He's just sat on "nuh uh" the whole time

 

[KidGamer65]

Yooooo! I'm back.

@KG & 4SS

I'm gonna have to agree with 4SS that the cloak would have improved his precognition. Some of his reasoning is really wrong though. The main point though is that having a more potent chakra source fueling his eyes would naturally increases his effectiveness with his Sharingan, and derived abilities/jutsu.

Though KG is technically right on the latter part. The cloak helped lv his eyes up to where he could unlock PS and use it even after he lost the boost.


Then there's VOTE2 scaling. Naruto showed superior reactions and all around much better speed, though some of the former could be do to his having a better form of chakra sensing than what he scales down to.

So in all I believe your both right in a way (but KG has already pointed out the flaws in 4SS argument). I'm inclined to believe the following is how they stack up

Reactions: EMS Sasuke (pre-cloak) = KCM Naruto < EMS Sasuke (post cloak) = BM Naruto < EMS Sasuke (w/ cloak) = BSM Naruto

I'll note that Naruto keeps an advantage in shunshin across the board while their combat speed should be similar (non chakra enhanced speed)


Btw KG we had a pretty good discussion going in that last speed thread from awile back. Wanna pick it up here? It's relevant and I'd rather not necro

Yeah, even if the cloak makes his precognitive abilities better, that doesn't account for the boost his eyes got during the fight with Obito. If he was able to perceive Juubito because of the cloak then he would've been doing so from the start. So while he might not be able to track Obito w/o the cloak, the point stands and I pretty much agree with your scaling listed above. That's actually what I've been saying is true.

Though what is the difference between BM and KCM in reaction speed? Because they are technically the same state until Kurama comes out.

And yes, let's pick up that discussion. Not like there's anything going on here anyway. :lol And I've gotten tired of arguing with the illiterate above me.