[Discussion] Someone correct me if I'm wrong...

[Rokudaime Hokage Naruto]

This revelation of the Juubi being a tree is very confusing and raises a lot of questions. I'm going to go through what I understand, and maybe other people can add to this.


Shinju - the God Tree, which bares fruit once a millennium had its fruit eaten by the Sage's mom. She became the only person in the world with chakra at that point. - According to Madara

The Sage inherited, his mother's chakra, but the Shinju was angry, that somebody had stolen it's chakra, so it turned into the Juubi. Is this the same form of the Juubi that has been fighting all along, the second form (i.e one eye, one ear, one mouth) ? Or is it the final form which we haven't seen yet. The manga is unclear about this. Edit: Suggestions that the Juubi which the sage fought was it's first form.

The Sage sealed the Juubi (which form it remains to be seen), and taught the people about chakra. Now we don't know if he gave the people chakra like Naruto did or if they already had it - we were told at the start, EVERY SINGLE living thing has chakra inside them, which begs the question, how did they get it if it didn't exist before the Sage shared it with other humans.

Before the Sage died he split the Juubi into 9 tailed beasts. Now obviously even if you added all the chakra from the 9 bijuu, you wouldn't reach the chakra levels of the 2nd form of the Juubi *see end*. So some chakra must have been lost to the world, maybe it formed Nature chakra, we don't know.

Back to the present story. The Shinju has reformed, without the Kyuubi's chakra and Hachibi's chakra, as well as all the Nature chakra around them (proven by the fact that Hashirama is still in sage mode). Does this mean it is alot weaker than before? This is because all the chakra from millions of living things and all that Nature chakra on the entire Naruto earth hasn't yet been taken up. Which if we go along with Madara's story means the tree should be at a fraction of its original power.

Now if we take the premise that the Shinju is the originator of all chakra. Many questions are raised.

How does it explain chakra growth in an individual. How does it explain chakra expenditure and recovery? When shinobi are born, do they take the chakra of their parents, the answer to this is obviously no.

The only way to make this work, is for chakra to have already existed before the Sage's mom harnessed it, that the Shinju is not the originator of all chakra, and that chakra is not bound by normal laws of energy. That it can only be transformed not created or destoryed. Otherwise, having children would make shinobi weaker etc.

I think Kishi hasn't thought it through well enough. As if all chakra originally belonged to the Shinju, where does natural chakra come from. Why do chakra levels increase with no external input.

Thank you if you took the time to read this, I know it was a bit of a ramble. Also I'm sorry for the messy thread, it was difficult to phrase most of my ideas.


*Reasoning why 2nd form of the Juubi is stronger than all 9 Bijuu. Naruto with half the kyuubi >= 2tails-7 tails. And as Hachibi was weaker than half the Kyuubi with the Ichibi very weak compared to the Kyuubi. If Naruto can control all that power, but was overwhelmed by just sensing the first form of the Juubi, it speaks volumes of how strong the juubi really is.

 

[-ahhimane-]

Sage got the ability to mold chakra of his own as well as the juubi's chakra. So he taught everyone how to develop their own chakra.
Chakra remained in everyone.
Juubi is only trying to get its chakra back that is the Kyuubi's as well as Hachibi's chakra as well as the chakra around the tree.

 

[Mr Hiru]

The glyphs reveal that once the fruit was stolen the Juubi returned to Stage 1.

 

[AllomnisymbolsparttwoT]

This revelation of the Juubi being a tree is very confusing and raises a lot of questions. I'm going to go through what I understand, and maybe other people can add to this.


Shinju - the God Tree, which bares fruit once a millennium had its fruit eaten by the Sage's mom. She became the only person in the world with chakra at that point. - According to Madara

The Sage inherited, his mother's chakra, but the Shinju was angry, that somebody had stolen it's chakra, so it turned into the Juubi. Is this the same form of the Juubi that has been fighting all along, the second form (i.e one eye, one ear, one mouth) ? Or is it the final form which we haven't seen yet. The manga is unclear about this.

The Sage sealed the Juubi (which form it remains to be seen), and taught the people about chakra. Now we don't know if he gave the people chakra like Naruto did or if they already had it - we were told at the start, EVERY SINGLE living thing has chakra inside them, which begs the question, how did they get it if it didn't exist before the Sage shared it with other humans.

Before the Sage died he split the Juubi into 9 tailed beasts. Now obviously even if you added all the chakra from the 9 bijuu, you wouldn't reach the chakra levels of the 2nd form of the Juubi *see end*. So some chakra must have been lost to the world, maybe it formed Nature chakra, we don't know.

Back to the present story. The Shinju has reformed, without the Kyuubi's chakra and Hachibi's chakra, as well as all the Nature chakra around them (proven by the fact that Hashirama is still in sage mode). Does this mean it is alot weaker than before? This is because all the chakra from millions of living things and all that Nature chakra on the entire Naruto earth hasn't yet been taken up. Which if we go along with Madara's story means the tree should be at a fraction of its original power.

Now if we take the premise that the Shinju is the originator of all chakra. Many questions are raised.

How does it explain chakra growth in an individual. How does it explain chakra expenditure and recovery? When shinobi are born, do they take the chakra of their parents, the answer to this is obviously no.

The only way to make this work, is for chakra to have already existed before the Sage's mom harnessed it, that the Shinju is not the originator of all chakra, and that chakra is not bound by normal laws of energy. That it can only be transformed not created or destoryed. Otherwise, having children would make shinobi weaker etc.

I think Kishi hasn't thought it through well enough. As if all chakra originally belonged to the Shinju, where does natural chakra come from. Why do chakra levels increase with no external input.

Thank you if you took the time to read this, I know it was a bit of a ramble. Also I'm sorry for the messy thread, it was difficult to phrase most of my ideas.


*Reasoning why 2nd form of the Juubi is stronger than all 9 Bijuu. Naruto with half the kyuubi >= 2tails-7 tails. And as Hachibi was weaker than half the Kyuubi with the Ichibi very weak compared to the Kyuubi. If Naruto can control all that power, but was overwhelmed by just sensing the first form of the Juubi, it speaks volumes of how strong the juubi really is.

The Sage inherited, his mother's chakra, but the Shinju was angry, that somebody had stolen it's chakra, so it turned into the Juubi. Is this the same form of the Juubi that has been fighting all along, the second form (i.e one eye, one ear, one mouth) ? Or is it the final form which we haven't seen yet. The manga is unclear about thi

according to the flashback, the tree manifested in a physical form, that form is the ten tails. the form we saw was most likely the form we saw rikudo fighting, the fat juubi in 610 or something, we have seen the final form.. that tree is its final form. hachibi clearly confirms it

The Sage sealed the Juubi (which form it remains to be seen), and taught the people about chakra. Now we don't know if he gave the people chakra like Naruto did or if they already had it - we were told at the start, EVERY SINGLE living thing has chakra inside them, which begs the question, how did they get it if it didn't exist before the Sage shared it with other humans.

This question is pretty much answered, chakra in a whole is energy.. every human is born with energy, chakra that you are talking about Is manipulation of energy, rikudo thought man to manipulate their energies, also rikudo have given man ''DIVINE CHAKRA'' aka the sharingan, byakugan.etc chakra like that did NOT come naturally, tobirama said that dark chakra to the brain causes the Sharingan.

Before the Sage died he split the Juubi into 9 tailed beasts. Now obviously even if you added all the chakra from the 9 bijuu, you wouldn't reach the chakra levels of the 2nd form of the Juubi *see end*. So some chakra must have been lost to the world, maybe it formed Nature chakra, we don't know.

Most likely, energy as stated changes forms constantly and reforms so yeah. no ending to it

The only way to make this work, is for chakra to have already existed before the Sage's mom harnessed it, that the Shinju is not the originator of all chakra, and that chakra is not bound by normal laws of energy. That it can only be transformed not created or destoryed. Otherwise, having children would make shinobi weaker etc.

I think Kishi hasn't thought it through well enough. As if all chakra originally belonged to the Shinju, where does natural chakra come from. Why do chakra levels increase with no external input.

Thank you if you took the time to read this, I know it was a bit of a ramble. Also I'm sorry for the messy thread, it was difficult to phrase most of my ideas.

this is where everybody confuses, Human standards DONT APPLY TO SHINJU STANDARDS. the Juubi IS the progenitor of all things in the world that means NATURAL AND CHAKRA ENERGY, if you deny that, you're going against the manga, in human standards one cant be of chakra and natural energy and senjutsu THATS HUMAN STANDARDS, SHINJU IS NOT A HUMAN... ITS A PRIMORDIAL BEING. you have to understand that concept. natural energy and chakra along with any other energy just comes from it, thats how it is, the manga states its the source of ALL chakra, ALL MEANS ALL

ALL + ALL = ALL

So Simple yet hard for people to grasp

 

[Michael]

This revelation of the Juubi being a tree is very confusing and raises a lot of questions. I'm going to go through what I understand, and maybe other people can add to this.


Shinju - the God Tree, which bares fruit once a millennium had its fruit eaten by the Sage's mom. She became the only person in the world with chakra at that point. - According to Madara

The Sage inherited, his mother's chakra, but the Shinju was angry, that somebody had stolen it's chakra, so it turned into the Juubi. Is this the same form of the Juubi that has been fighting all along, the second form (i.e one eye, one ear, one mouth) ? Or is it the final form which we haven't seen yet. The manga is unclear about this.

The Sage sealed the Juubi (which form it remains to be seen), and taught the people about chakra. Now we don't know if he gave the people chakra like Naruto did or if they already had it - we were told at the start, EVERY SINGLE living thing has chakra inside them, which begs the question, how did they get it if it didn't exist before the Sage shared it with other humans.

Before the Sage died he split the Juubi into 9 tailed beasts. Now obviously even if you added all the chakra from the 9 bijuu, you wouldn't reach the chakra levels of the 2nd form of the Juubi *see end*. So some chakra must have been lost to the world, maybe it formed Nature chakra, we don't know.

Back to the present story. The Shinju has reformed, without the Kyuubi's chakra and Hachibi's chakra, as well as all the Nature chakra around them (proven by the fact that Hashirama is still in sage mode). Does this mean it is alot weaker than before? This is because all the chakra from millions of living things and all that Nature chakra on the entire Naruto earth hasn't yet been taken up. Which if we go along with Madara's story means the tree should be at a fraction of its original power.

Now if we take the premise that the Shinju is the originator of all chakra. Many questions are raised.

How does it explain chakra growth in an individual. How does it explain chakra expenditure and recovery? When shinobi are born, do they take the chakra of their parents, the answer to this is obviously no.

The only way to make this work, is for chakra to have already existed before the Sage's mom harnessed it, that the Shinju is not the originator of all chakra, and that chakra is not bound by normal laws of energy. That it can only be transformed not created or destoryed. Otherwise, having children would make shinobi weaker etc.

I think Kishi hasn't thought it through well enough. As if all chakra originally belonged to the Shinju, where does natural chakra come from. Why do chakra levels increase with no external input.

Thank you if you took the time to read this, I know it was a bit of a ramble. Also I'm sorry for the messy thread, it was difficult to phrase most of my ideas.


*Reasoning why 2nd form of the Juubi is stronger than all 9 Bijuu. Naruto with half the kyuubi >= 2tails-7 tails. And as Hachibi was weaker than half the Kyuubi with the Ichibi very weak compared to the Kyuubi. If Naruto can control all that power, but was overwhelmed by just sensing the first form of the Juubi, it speaks volumes of how strong the juubi really is.

Every living being was born with chakra, just small portions. When the sage mom ate the fruit her chakra grew to godly levels. Her son naturally inherited this chakra and so on, thus starting a long line of super shinobi as we know. All shinobi with chakra based abilities are descendants of the sage, thus hes the father of shinobi. All normal people(ramen guy) are not descendants from the sage. Do you understand?

Even ramen guy has chakra, just small amount due to him not being descendant from the sage.

 

[Rokudaime Hokage Naruto]

according to the flashback, the tree manifested in a physical form, that form is the ten tails. the form we saw was most likely the form we saw rikudo fighting, the fat juubi in 610 or something, we have seen the final form.. that tree is its final form. hachibi clearly confirms it



This question is pretty much answered, chakra in a whole is energy.. every human is born with energy, chakra that you are talking about Is manipulation of energy, rikudo thought man to manipulate their energies, also rikudo have given man ''DIVINE CHAKRA'' aka the sharingan, byakugan.etc chakra like that did NOT come naturally, tobirama said that dark chakra to the brain causes the Sharingan.



Most likely, energy as stated changes forms constantly and reforms so yeah. no ending to it



this is where everybody confuses, Human standards DONT APPLY TO SHINJU STANDARDS. the Juubi IS the progenitor of all things in the world that means NATURAL AND CHAKRA ENERGY, if you deny that, you're going against the manga, in human standards one cant be of chakra and natural energy and senjutsu THATS HUMAN STANDARDS, SHINJU IS NOT A HUMAN... ITS A PRIMORDIAL BEING. you have to understand that concept. natural energy and chakra along with any other energy just comes from it, thats how it is, the manga states its the source of ALL chakra, ALL MEANS ALL

ALL + ALL = ALL

So Simple yet hard for people to grasp

Everything until bold I'm good with. I can grasp that the Manga states all chakra comes from the juubi, and the Shinju could hold all chakra natures Ying Yang and Natural. But my argument if the only times chakra has been injected into the human race by the Juubi was when Sage's mom ate the fruit and the Sage became jin of the Juubi, that should be the finite amount of chakra ever achieved by all the humans alive at one point. This then questions where do animals and Nature get their chakra, and how does an individual's chakra levels increase. This means that using the chakra given to them by the Juubi, humans increased their chakra levels through training and experience. This then agrees with the fact that Juubi is originator of all chakra. But disagrees with the fact that Juubi used to own all of the chakra in the world today.

To put it in other terms. If the bank loans me £200, I go to the casino and turn it into £1000. The bank is the reason i have the £1000 now. But only the £200 originally belonged to the bank.

It is difficult to phrase but i hope you understand.

 

[Tobby17]

you're overthinking it, this is fiction, nothing makes sense