naruto7861
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actually I change my mind after this I go with Sasuke nice explanation
SM Naruto vs Hebi Sasuke?
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JStar King
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Naruto has already said he's weaker than Sasuke without the Kyuubi. He couldn't take out Sasuke when he was blind. Sasuke owns mid to high diff.
SM Naruto clones have not shown any decent speed feat. Then dodging an attack that Itachi barely dodged is not something that can be factored in. With flight and the face of dragons downwards, those clones get obliterated. Any attempt to use FRS on Naruto's part fans the flames, making them stronger. In fact, Sasuke can even counter FRS with his Katon atatcks. He has the perfect counter for his sole technique that might make a difference.
His CQC is far outclassed by Sasuke's Kenjutsu. The difference is so vast between their CQC prowess that it's not even funny. Naruto's Frog Kata is literally useless from more than an inch or two away. That is the proximity where his punches need to be to even make a difference. Sasuke can easily use Chidori and Fuma Shurikens and flight at high speed - something he did against Deidara - and build up more pressure. His Genjutsu is another option and two-fold usage of Nagashi: meaning, not only can he discharge it from his body but send it running on the ground as well. He has too many options to take care of clones.
Nothing but your assumption. Given that Manda can speedily coil up, and dig underground and gobble them up. The guy has too many options. If such a large Katon attack didn't even scratch him, Naruto's little Rasangans aren't making any difference. And you make it sound like Manda is going to stand still. He shifts and mows them down with his speed alone. He controlled it for a brief moment because he was out of chakra. He can promise him sacrifices just like Orochimaru did.
Not even going to take the first paragraph of this point seriously. I suggest you go through the scans and then talk.
Already proved to you in another thread that he isn't. He would fuse with them when he knows the ritual to call them. When he doesn't, then he cannot. What difference would they make anyway? He will make full 6 FRSs' in one go without resorting to extension? Frog Song is useless as it takes a sizable amount of Senjutsu and a lot of time. Not only that, both of the frogs are out of battle for the entire time. It also works only at point blank range. It isn't even a ranged Genjutsu, which is why the paths could hear it the whole time in the pipes but didn't get affected until they literally used it from five feet away to make it effective. That is the only thing that gives them a win.
CQC domination is an assumption. He can easily deal with his clones via Nagashi, flight, Fuma Shurikens, Katons ... quite a lot of options. No he isn't. Given that FRS is utterly useless against a fast opponent like Sasuke. That leaves Rasangans that need to be connected. Good luck to Naruto in that department. Sharingan gives superior reaction window.
a single SM clone has shown the speed and reactions to counterblitz someone whoʻs just as fast as V1 Ei. That immediately puts them on the same speed level as base sasuke. Also, just saying "sm clones donʻt have any decent speed featsʻ is irrelevant since no speed feats =/= slower speed. By that logic, Sasuke blitzed hagoromo since hagoromo hasnʻt shown a single speed feat in the manga.
Next, Sasukeʻs dragon flames were dodged by sick, blind itachi whoʻs movements were severely diminished due to his use of the MS. So nope, Sasukeʻs dragon flames get casually dodged by SM clones.
Sasukeʻs dragon flames also get destroyed by FRS. The manga explicitly stated that the elemental relationships only apply if both ninjutsu are on the same level. Sasukeʻs dragon flames are TIERS below a SM FRS, he needs enton in order to overpower and turn narutoʻs own technique back on him. Not only that, but since youʻve failed to address Naruto powering right through the flames with oodama rasengan iʻm guessing you concede that point therefore Sasukeʻs dragon gets destroyed with oodama rasengan.
Based on what is Narutoʻs kata useless from more than an inch or two away? If Sasuke brings out chidori variants, Naruto brings out rasengan variants, and sasuke gets obliterated. Not only that, but sasuke is fighting multiple SM Narutoʻs since naruto can use kagebunshins, if one SM Naruto murks him he gets fodderized if he has to fight more than one. Genjutsu is absolutely not an option wen Naruto has been shown to fight blind, has sensing that allows him to perceive fights miles away as if seeing them with his own eyes, when naruto has knowledge on the sharingan, and when heʻs fighting multiple narutos.
Manda never took Gamabuntaʻs katon, it shed its skin and dug underground in order to avoid the technique. He would have been roasted alive if he tried to tank that. Not only that, but narutoʻs SM oodama rasengan is far more powerful than jiraiyaʻs katon just like chidori is far more powerful than Sasukeʻs katon despite sasukeʻs katon being a far larger attack.
then youʻve conceded all of the points made in the first paragraph since an ignored argument is a conceded one.
Kishi explicitly stated in an interview that Naruto can summon any toad he wants to. Unless you have some kind of positive evidence that Naruto canʻt summon them, Naruto summons them.
I completely destroyed you argument about NArutoʻs limit being 6 FRS per sennin mode if he doesnʻt have clones gathering natural energy as Naruto has entered SM a total of 5 times against nagato, Naruto explicitly states his time in SM is 5 minutes, and in the war arc he doesnʻt have any clones gathering chakra for him yet he still can only throw 3 FRS, and then thereʻs the fact that if NAruto did convert all of his chakra into senjutsu, heʻd be dead after exiting SM so nope.
Frog song does not require the opponent to be 5 feet away, it simply requires them to hear the song long enough to get put into the genjutsu.
If Sasuke uses chidori nagashi, naruto slames a giant rasengan right into him killing Sasuke. fuma shurikens are laughed at, grabbed right out of the air and thrown back at sasuke, katons are easily dodged, most likely powered right through with an oodama rasengan killing sasuke.
FRS is absolutely not useless against Sasuke, Naruto can slam it into sasuke, he can fire it at sasuke while sasuke tries to deal with clones, he can throw it next to sasuke and expand it or detonate it, killing sasuke, he can kill manda with it, he can overpower any of sasukeʻs techniques with it.
And no, SM Naruto has better reactions than Hebi Sasuke proven by him counterblitzing Sandaime raikage and his reactions extending from all directions, not just limited to his LoS like Sasukeʻs.
Once again, the verdict is compelling: Sasuke gets stomped. Heʻs fighting someone who beats him in every category, dominates him in most, and has way more chakra than he does. CQC results in sasuke fighting multiple oppoonents who are just as fast and reflexive as him, yet have way more firepower. He gets stomped. long range isnʻt an option for sasuke since all of his jutsu are easily dodged or countered by narutoʻs far greater jutsu, manda gets fodderized by an oodama rasengan, and all that is pain arc SM Naruto. War arc SM Naruto stomps Sasuke with far less difficulty. War arc SM Naruto w/ ma and pa treats sasuke like heʻs a kid.
Genjutsu da
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A classic example of how SM Naruito is insipidly over-rated on this base.
Your first paragraph makes little sense. No feats means, no feats. Itachi was blind then? Only someone like you could believe that Itachi is slow, as KCM Naruto and Bee couldn't land a single hit on him when he was healthy. When Sick, his reflexes and speed had not gone through a drastic downgrade, not until later. They were affected, but not as much as you make it sound like.
Fire is a technique that is elementally stronger than Wind. Wind Fans the flames. That is nothing but on-paper assumption from you that Dragon Katon attack that tore open a concrete roof, reached all the way to the cloud ceiling would get bested by FRS just because you believe so. Get real.
Without catching Sasuke with them, his variants are useless. Nagashi takes care of any clones rather easily. At close range, this match is Sasuke's game. Which is why he fell under Genjutsu despite the warnings countless times? Your point doesn't even make any sense. Genjutsu is an option. It was and always will be. As for Frog Kata, then I suggest you look at the scan where it affected the path. It might genuinely shock you.
Exactly. He removed the damaged skin. It never penetrated far enough to wound him in any manner. What about the poison from Sasuke's snakes? Does he magically cure himself as well? Or snake restraints that were hefty and powerful enough to make Enma revert back to his original form? As I said, too many options at his disposal. How did you reach to a conclusion that his Rasangan is more powerful than such a large scale Katon attack?
He has shown no ritual to summon the toads. He has yet to learn it. Unless you have proof that they can be summoned without that ritual? Thought so. Your delusion exceeds the healthy limit. Without scans, all I read were a bunch of fanboy rambles about 150% percentage. Quit while you are behind on this and sit yourself down. What? His SM ended despite the clones he made on the battle field after only 4 FRS. Lol @ this guy. Feats on Frog Song show otherwise. Go and re-read the chapters.
Your last portion is a nice fan-fiction and can only work if Sasuke stands still and does literally nothing. A moving Sasuke using several techniques simultaneously, along with snakes, their poison, and Katon attacks is a force to be reckoned with. Genjutsu only favours him further.
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since you havenʻt contested the argument that no feats =/= incapable of doing something then youʻve conceded that you have no grounds for making the claim that narutoʻs sm clones donʻt dodge the katon. Itachi was almost blind we literally saw how bad his vision was when he was looking at sasuke earlier in his fight. Itachiʻs speed and reactions were explicitly stated to have taken an enormous dip after his failed tsukuyomi on sasuke and we literally saw itachi on his knees coughing up blood right before sasuke fired his katons at him. So no, sasukeʻs dragon katons absolutely do not hit clones that can counterblitz sandaime raikage.
The manga explicitly states that only if both techniques are on the same level will fire consume the wind and come back even stronger. blowing open a concrete roof and going into the clouds is laughable compared to FRS that cuts through multiple mountain-like structures, creates an enormous crater at only 50%, blows up half the chibaku tensei crater, and inflicts more damage on Kurama than 25 SM chou oodama rasengans.
FRS goes right through sasukeʻs katon and kills the foolish sasuke who tried to counter it.
How is naruto not catching sasuke when sasuke isnʻt faster or more reflexive than naruto and has to fight multiple narutos at the same time? And when narutoʻs variants are just as big as narutoʻs own body? Based on what does nagato take care of clones rather easily? Itʻs maximum range was a foot away from sasuke, sasuke uses nagashi, naruto ends him with a rasengan. When did SM Naruto fall into genjutsu, ever? Itachi couldnʻt even catch beginning of part 2 base naruto with sharingan genjutsu, he had to resort to finger genuutsu, he couldnʻt even catch one of narutoʻs base clones in his genjutsu, he had to resort to shisuiʻs crow. Sasuke couldnʻt even catch shii in genjutsu without using juugoʻs laser as a distraction. Sasuke is absolutely not catching SM Naruto in genjutsu when he doesnʻt know which naruto is the real one, when itachi canʻt even catch base naruto in normal sharingan genjutsu, and when SM Naruto has the feats to fight while blind. What does the frog kata vs the path have to do with your statement that it only extends a couple of inches away from narutoʻs punch?
He removed his skin and then dug underground while the katon was being fired. His skin was burned to ashes, had manda not done so, he would have been burned along with his skin. Sasukeʻs snakes? Naruto fodderizes them with an oodama rasengan just like KN4 fodderized an entire wave of them with a single wave of his hand.
Show me this scan of snakes making enma revert to original form.
I literally gave my reasoning for SM oodama rasengan being more powerful than such a large scale katon. Rasengan = chidori, sasukeʻs katon didnʻt do anything to transformed gaara despite being far larger than gaara, yet his chidori casually went right through gaaraʻs arm. Even on the rooftop, Narutoʻs
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without even disipating. ma summoned pa, the gamatrio and naruto without any such ritual. The ritual was only a requirement for jiraiya, Naruto doesnʻt require such a thing, nothing in the manga implies he does, kishi explicitly stated naruto can summon any toad he wanted, therefore Naruto can summon them.
I literally gave you scans that prove that Narutoʻs SM chakra is 150% his normal chakra, so thatʻs you conceding that argument.
Naruto literally entered SM in the war, threw 3 FRS and used up all of his SM. He had no other clones gathering natural energy for him, that conclusively disproves your argument that Naruto can only fire 6 FRS with his entire chakra reserves converted into SM.
Naruto entered SM 5 times against Pain which disproves your argument about his limit being 6.
Naruto would die if he converted all of his chakra reserves into senjutsu which disproves your argument about his limit being 6.
So no your argument is literally impossible by at least three reasons, Narutoʻs SM limit is absolutely not 6 FRS, he enters SM for only 5 minutes at a time regardless if he has clones gathering natural energy for him or not.
Feats of frog song donʻt show otherwise as all pain paths were caught by that technique despite some of them being far away from the frogs.
Sasukeʻs absolutely not standing still. Heʻs busy dealing with naruto or his clones, naruto simply catches him with that since Narutoʻs speed and reactions are at least as good as sasukeʻs. Sasukeʻs techniques are nothing to a single SM oodama rasengan. Line all of them up, let sasuke have this fanfiction ability to use katons, snakes, poisons and chidori variants while moving all at the same time, Naruto uses a single SM oodama rasengan and what? It plows right through said katons, snakes and chidori variants and kills Sasuke. Thatʻs just 1 naruto. Now Sasukeʻs going up against multiple narutoʻs all just as fast and reflexive as him and all capable of using SM oodama rasengan. Sasuke gets absolutely stomped.
Don't type pointlessly. keep it short. I am working and cannot repeat the same things like a parrot. You must have a knack for this., I don't. Had to go for the bluntness, as you just don't seem to get it that your long paragraphs without evidence are wasting my time.
Pop that little over-inflated balloon called arrogance. It doesn't seem to suit you without bringing out much evidence. Itachi was still mighty fast, enough to push back Hebi Sasuke. That, by default, puts him a tiers above SM Naruto in speed. Keep bawling. Your Naruto fanboyism is quite insipid. You believe no character is faster than him, despite the overwhelming evidence, and now you have thrown even Itachi into the mix. How wrong do you want to keep getting?
You mean the Enton and FRS? A tiny arrow utterly consumed FRS Naruto threw at Juubi in KCM form. It was absolutely massive. Elemental advantage is very real. Now you are denying even this? What's next? SM FRS blows away Enton, because Naruto is just awesome. FRS tears through a mass of desert sand, because it can't be stopped. Get over it, pal. Fire is superior to wind. You have zero proof to back this up that Dragon Katon attack is an inferior Jutsu, inferior enough to be consumed by a lesser element, given that even the Ceiling clouds winds didn't stop it. Funny.
Here is where your vast bundle of assumptions and fiction comes in: Sasuke is slower, his reflexes are slower, he won't react, Naruto can catch him etc etc. Guess what? He can't, as Pre-cog is superior than Sage Reflexes, proven by Madara and Obito, despite the fact that they faced BM Naruto, who looked like a complete idiot by Comparison, aided by ill-will sensing. He couldn't blitz Madara twice, despite the other being distracted, where as he couldn't predict Sasuke.
You just don't get it, do you? Sasuke's reflexes are just superior. Sharingan allows him the luxury. that he why he fell in the dirt when Madara without eyes sped past him, leaving him rolling in the dirt. Madara is no where near V2 Ae in base form. He should be just as fast as V1 Ae or Third. So keep posting assumptions. All Sasuke has to do is use one Nagashi, and all the clones in the near vicinity along with dear old Naruto are effected. they disappear and Naruto is left paralyzed. Ending the fight there and then.
What are you smoking? Pass it along so that I can see your version of the scan as well:
Great, now let's give the Sage Toads' summoning feats to Naruto. Why not hand over their techniques while you are at it? They require a ritual to summon. Naruto hasn't shown it, so he can't. Case closed. He had two other clones gather NE right there on the battlefield with Gaara and Onoki. He was off-panel the whole time in that alliance no Jutsu chapter. We he appears in SM, he is accompanied by the same number of clones. His Large FRS was accomplished the same way. A large dialogue exchange took place before he was even shown with clones, making FRS. Instant, indeed.
I am getting tired of your tag along yolo English. No where did those scans mentioned anything about volume. Literally no where. Pa talked repeatedly about NE making chakra powerful after achieving harmony. Balance and harmony, that's all that was shown. No where, not once, has the manga stated that NE adds volume. Literally no where. Just give up. This is nothing but your fan-fiction.
As if his clones are difficult to deal with. I'll gladly quote Madara here:
Pop that little over-inflated balloon called arrogance. It doesn't seem to suit you without bringing out much evidence. Itachi was still mighty fast, enough to push back Hebi Sasuke. That, by default, puts him a tiers above SM Naruto in speed. Keep bawling. Your Naruto fanboyism is quite insipid. You believe no character is faster than him, despite the overwhelming evidence, and now you have thrown even Itachi into the mix. How wrong do you want to keep getting?
You mean the Enton and FRS? A tiny arrow utterly consumed FRS Naruto threw at Juubi in KCM form. It was absolutely massive. Elemental advantage is very real. Now you are denying even this? What's next? SM FRS blows away Enton, because Naruto is just awesome. FRS tears through a mass of desert sand, because it can't be stopped. Get over it, pal. Fire is superior to wind. You have zero proof to back this up that Dragon Katon attack is an inferior Jutsu, inferior enough to be consumed by a lesser element, given that even the Ceiling clouds winds didn't stop it. Funny.
Here is where your vast bundle of assumptions and fiction comes in: Sasuke is slower, his reflexes are slower, he won't react, Naruto can catch him etc etc. Guess what? He can't, as Pre-cog is superior than Sage Reflexes, proven by Madara and Obito, despite the fact that they faced BM Naruto, who looked like a complete idiot by Comparison, aided by ill-will sensing. He couldn't blitz Madara twice, despite the other being distracted, where as he couldn't predict Sasuke.
You just don't get it, do you? Sasuke's reflexes are just superior. Sharingan allows him the luxury. that he why he fell in the dirt when Madara without eyes sped past him, leaving him rolling in the dirt. Madara is no where near V2 Ae in base form. He should be just as fast as V1 Ae or Third. So keep posting assumptions. All Sasuke has to do is use one Nagashi, and all the clones in the near vicinity along with dear old Naruto are effected. they disappear and Naruto is left paralyzed. Ending the fight there and then.
What are you smoking? Pass it along so that I can see your version of the scan as well:
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- The attack had already hit the ground and was done. Fire attacks require kneading from the mouth, constantly:
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. As for Fuma shurikens, then his speed of summoning and reacting is faster than Itachi's handseal speed:
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- Can you get any more ridiculous? I think you can. Great, now let's give the Sage Toads' summoning feats to Naruto. Why not hand over their techniques while you are at it? They require a ritual to summon. Naruto hasn't shown it, so he can't. Case closed. He had two other clones gather NE right there on the battlefield with Gaara and Onoki. He was off-panel the whole time in that alliance no Jutsu chapter. We he appears in SM, he is accompanied by the same number of clones. His Large FRS was accomplished the same way. A large dialogue exchange took place before he was even shown with clones, making FRS. Instant, indeed.
I am getting tired of your tag along yolo English. No where did those scans mentioned anything about volume. Literally no where. Pa talked repeatedly about NE making chakra powerful after achieving harmony. Balance and harmony, that's all that was shown. No where, not once, has the manga stated that NE adds volume. Literally no where. Just give up. This is nothing but your fan-fiction.
As if his clones are difficult to deal with. I'll gladly quote Madara here:
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- He's only multiplying his incompetence. Nagashi, snakes, snake poison deals with the lot. Fire ball and Dragon katon attack burns him to a crisp. Funa shuriken cut through his clones and create further openings. Kenjutsu allows him to use Kusanagi, paralyzing and finishing off Naruto or his clones. Genjutsu simply finishes the job much faster.
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itachi before he used tsukuyomi was fast enough to push back hebi sasuke. after he used it, his movements took a solid dip. He dodged sasukeʻs fireballs after he used 2 amaterasus at which point he was so gimped that he was coughing blood. SM Naruto clone counterblitzing Sandaime raikage puts him at least on hebi sasukeʻs tier. So by default Narutoʻs SM clone easily dodges a katon that a massively inhibited Itachi could dodge.
The arrow that sasuke fired was just as long as the FRS was, and it didnʻt even change the FRSʻs direction. Im not saying FRS blows away enton since enton IS on the same level as FRS. Normal katons are not.
Considering you ignored the enormous proofs that FRS is tiers above sasukeʻs dragon katon ranging from FRS being superior to 25 SM chou oodama rasengans to it blowing up half the chibaku tensei crater, to even the 50% version creating a gigantic crater in the ground, youʻve just conceded this point. FRS is on several tiers above sasukeʻs dragon katon, plows right through it and kills sasuke.
Sasuke doesnʻt get Madaraʻs EMS/rinnegan reaction feats, nor does he get MS Obitoʻs rinnegan reaction feats. SM Narutoʻs clone pulled off the exact same feat sasuke did against V1 Ei, SM Naruto therefore is at least on the same level of reactions and speed as sasuke.
SM Naruto was almost out of sennin mode after using the giant rasenshuriken and he blocked madaraʻs attack so none of that shows Naruto is inferior to Sasuke in reactions. If you admit that Sasuke is just as fast as sandaime raikage, then that proves that Naruto is just as fast and reflexive as sasuke since his clone counterblitzed sandaime raikage. Next, Sasuke is not as fast as either of those people since with sharingan precog, you donʻt need to be anywhere near the speed of your opponent in order to blitz them .
If Sasuke uses nagashi, naruto slams a rasengan in to him, killling Sasuke. Youʻve never addressed that, and therefore you concede that point as an ignored argument is a conceded one. Not only that, but what is the maximum range of sasukeʻs chidori nagashi? 1 maybe 2 feet? How does that translate to destroying all SM clones in the vicinity?
Naruto coming out of sasukeʻs katon completely undamaged conclusively proves that the rasengan countered it. It doesnʻt matter, deidara dodged his shurikens, a massively gimped itachi ddodged them as well, SM Naruto and his clones who are far faster than both casually dodge the shurikens.
So youʻve conceded that Naruto can summon the clones since you completely ignored my argument about kishi explicitly saying Naruto can do it. The sageʻs can use summoning jutsu, naruto can use summoning jutsu, SM Naruto is superior to the sages while heʻs in sage mode shown by how easily the toads were defeated by deva path. SM Naruto more likely than not can summon as well as they can, especially with a SM boosted kuchiyose. Now what evidence do you have that naruto canʻt do it? Nothing, absolutely nothing.
Thatʻs a base clone gathering NE against gaara and oonoki. Not only that, but if Naruto converts all his chakra into senjutsu when he enters it, then that clone should have logically disappeared after his fight against sandaime raikage since a clone canʻt exist without chakra. Yet we see the clone losing sennin mode and in base.
Next, itʻs completely irrelevant if Naruto was accompanied by clones after he throw the attacks or during since if those clones were in SM, then poofing them would result in naruto gaining their SM chakra (just like what happened in the pain fight) and therefore naruto would not have reverted to base after using 3 FRS and poofing his clones.
Finally, you once again completely ignored the fact that your argument is logically impossible since naruto converting all his chakra to senjutsu would result in a dead naruto after he loses SM.
So youʻve conceded this argument as an ignored argument is a conceded one.
Concession acceptted as an ignored argument is a conceded one. The scans not talking about volume =/= volume does not increase, just like the scans not talking about volume =/= volume does not decrease or stays the same. Pa explicitly states and literally shows SM chakra is 2 parts chakra 1 part natural energy. If you have passed elementary school math, youʻll know that 2 + 1 = 3, and that 3 > 2. Senjutsu chakra is 150% the amount of normal chakra. unless you address my arguments this is a flat out concession on your part.
Unless hebi sasuke is on the same level as edo Madara + rinnegan obito + the juubi, and SM Naruto is on the same level as base Naruto, then no, madara stating base narutoʻs clones are useless against him doesnʻt mean anything.
Nagashi results in a rasengan and sasukeʻs death. Snakes and snake poison are fodder when KN4 dealt with a tidal wave of the stuff with an arm wave. Dragon attacks get easily dodged, is a waste of chakra, and sasuke gets a rasengan into him while he tries to hit naruto or one of his clones with the attack. Kusanagi and sasukeʻs chidor variants are simply overpowered by Narutoʻs rasengan variants resulting in sasuke getting vaporized by a rasengan.
Youʻve conceded the genjutsu argument as youʻve completely ignored my argument about how itʻs irrelevant, so an ignored argument is a conceded one.
So once again, SM Naruto stomps Hebi Sasuke.
@lanakui8
Nothing took a large dip till he didn't pull out Susano'o. That was just a regular MS backlash, something Sasuke showed as well. Hilarious if you actually believe all clones clear the mark. When they have no decent feats even.
The arrow was far too tiny. It barely covered a tiny tiny percent of the whole circular shape. Fire is superior, just like Wind is superior to Lightning. Those are manga established facts. Stop slinking around this argument. Unless the technique is not borderline abysmal, it overpowers the other one. You have nothing here.
Which FRS are we taking about here? The largest one he made instead of all other FRSs'? Or the regular small ones he throws in base SM? That former is the only one I would concede to. As I said, they went past the micro bursts of the clouds. They were massive enough to completely dwarf Itachi. To even think that FRS in base SM is so vastly superior is nothing but nonsense. And these attacks not becoming stronger is sheer lunacy. The other FRS examples are irrelevant.
I am giving you examples from all modes to prove a point, how good Pre-Cog is. it's much Superior that SM sensing to land a hit. It's just that simple. Those examples only prove my point. As at foot-speed level, Hebi Sasuke is faster, then better reaction rates only grant him more power here.
That is just your assumption, as he didn't look or seem tired before the blitz happened. The blitz from a blind Madara was legit. He couldn't evade it, or block it effectively, and he wasn't even the target. If Sasuke uses Nagashi, he's paralyzed. He isn't moving. Unless he slams it into him through the power of his mind or sheer will.
No, it doesn't. Don't be a fool. Sasuke had already stopped kneading the chakra. The fire was done. Just stop. Pick out any scan from the manga and it'll prove you wrong. Deidara never dodged his Shurikens. Sasuke tricked him so that he could fly up. He successfully rammed them straight into his arms from such a height. Not sure which manga you're reading.
What are you talking about? Which clones? I am talking about Ma and Pa. He cannot summon them without the damn ritual. He hasn't learned it, so he cannot summon them. I have Jiraiya's summoning ritual. Your evidence? Oh wait, it's just a claim.
Naruto couldn't even enter SM instantly when Kurama had sync-ed the two modes. Even then it took him 5 - 7 seconds to initiate it, and back then, he himself stated that the process was much faster. Why are you pressing on this anyway? He's already in SM as per fight rules. Who cares how long it takes for him to enter SM? Stick to the topic. No one dies after their chakra hits a low mark. Naruto doesn't have to knead all his chakra, he just has to focus enough of it to make more FRS. He simply cannot extend it. Back then he left clones to extend the time. I have already gone back and forth over this. I won't repeat this point again.
Still don't see any evidence. No evidence, no argument.
False, because I didn't even make this claim. I said, he's incompetent, which he is. Sasuke is a far far intelligent opponent. The fact that anyone would even think that he'll let himself get caught by Rasangan is preposterous. He has too many CQC options, while dear old Naruto is limited to Rasangan at CQC.
Nothing took a large dip till he didn't pull out Susano'o. That was just a regular MS backlash, something Sasuke showed as well. Hilarious if you actually believe all clones clear the mark. When they have no decent feats even.
The arrow was far too tiny. It barely covered a tiny tiny percent of the whole circular shape. Fire is superior, just like Wind is superior to Lightning. Those are manga established facts. Stop slinking around this argument. Unless the technique is not borderline abysmal, it overpowers the other one. You have nothing here.
Which FRS are we taking about here? The largest one he made instead of all other FRSs'? Or the regular small ones he throws in base SM? That former is the only one I would concede to. As I said, they went past the micro bursts of the clouds. They were massive enough to completely dwarf Itachi. To even think that FRS in base SM is so vastly superior is nothing but nonsense. And these attacks not becoming stronger is sheer lunacy. The other FRS examples are irrelevant.
I am giving you examples from all modes to prove a point, how good Pre-Cog is. it's much Superior that SM sensing to land a hit. It's just that simple. Those examples only prove my point. As at foot-speed level, Hebi Sasuke is faster, then better reaction rates only grant him more power here.
That is just your assumption, as he didn't look or seem tired before the blitz happened. The blitz from a blind Madara was legit. He couldn't evade it, or block it effectively, and he wasn't even the target. If Sasuke uses Nagashi, he's paralyzed. He isn't moving. Unless he slams it into him through the power of his mind or sheer will.
No, it doesn't. Don't be a fool. Sasuke had already stopped kneading the chakra. The fire was done. Just stop. Pick out any scan from the manga and it'll prove you wrong. Deidara never dodged his Shurikens. Sasuke tricked him so that he could fly up. He successfully rammed them straight into his arms from such a height. Not sure which manga you're reading.
What are you talking about? Which clones? I am talking about Ma and Pa. He cannot summon them without the damn ritual. He hasn't learned it, so he cannot summon them. I have Jiraiya's summoning ritual. Your evidence? Oh wait, it's just a claim.
Naruto couldn't even enter SM instantly when Kurama had sync-ed the two modes. Even then it took him 5 - 7 seconds to initiate it, and back then, he himself stated that the process was much faster. Why are you pressing on this anyway? He's already in SM as per fight rules. Who cares how long it takes for him to enter SM? Stick to the topic. No one dies after their chakra hits a low mark. Naruto doesn't have to knead all his chakra, he just has to focus enough of it to make more FRS. He simply cannot extend it. Back then he left clones to extend the time. I have already gone back and forth over this. I won't repeat this point again.
Still don't see any evidence. No evidence, no argument.
False, because I didn't even make this claim. I said, he's incompetent, which he is. Sasuke is a far far intelligent opponent. The fact that anyone would even think that he'll let himself get caught by Rasangan is preposterous. He has too many CQC options, while dear old Naruto is limited to Rasangan at CQC.
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Concession accepted as an ignored argument is a conceded one. Youʻve ignored all of my points that prove the SM clones dodge them, bring up no arguments for why the clone doesnʻt and ignored my points which proved that sick, blind itachiʻs movements were massively gimped.
Concession accepted once again as an ignored argument is a conceded one. None of what youʻve posted has anything to do with my points or establishing why enton being on the same level as FRS means katons are. Youʻve completely ignored my argument about FRSʻs power which puts it on a completely different level than Sasukeʻs katons, completely ignored the fact that enton didnʻt change the direction of Narutoʻs rasenshuriken, and ignored the fact that the manga explicitly states that
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We are talking about SM FRS and base FRS. A SM FRS has all the feats that Iʻve stated it does from blowing up half the chibaku tensei crater to damaging Kurama more than 25 SM chou oodama rasengans. A base incomplete rasenshuriken created a massive crater in the ground as a mere side affect of it being used on a target. If Sasukeʻs katonʻs best feat is busting a concrete ceilingg that puts it magnitudes below narutoʻs base incomplete FRS.
Concession accepted as an ignored argument is a conceded one. Youʻve ignored all of my examples and havenʻt even addressed them, therefore youʻve conceded those examples and what they entail.
Unless you believe that SM Naruto can fire off a SM CHou oodama rasengan without approaching the limit of his SM, then no he was tired. Madara didnʻt even blitz naruto as naruto had his arms up indicating he blocked the attack. If Naruto and his clones are going to attack sasuke with rasengans while in CQC, nagashi gets fodderized right through, and sasuke dies. In addition to that, sasuke has never used nagashi without prep, he had significant time to gather the chakra and focus it before using it, heʻs never done it on the fly which is why he ends up chidoriing himself instead of using nagashi in order to difuse C4. base naruto had the time to grab sasukeʻs arm and jump behind him, yamato had the time to shove create an extension of wood that almost reached sasuke and deidara had the time to get his snakes wrapped around sasuke before sasuke could use nagashi. Finally, Sasukeʻs nagashi range is only a few feet away from his body any clone or the real naruto whoʻs out of that range ends sasuke with a rasengan while heʻs using his tech. So nope, Sasuke gets ended by rasengan.
Sasuke was explicitly shown to be firing the jutsu after he saw his katon start to swirl from the affects of the rasengan. Concession accepted as youʻve ignored my argument about naruto being inside of the katon and coming out completely unharmed. Deidara was explicitly shown to dodge the shurikens when thrown, and he called Sasukeʻs attack pathetic. Itʻs only after sasuke severed the dragonʻs wing after tricking deidara and shifting his focus that deidara was hit by the shuriken. So if sasuke throws them at naruto, naruto laughs at them and catches them, throws them right back.
Concession accepted as an ignore argument is a conceded one. You have zero evidence that Naruto doesnʻt know the ritual, kishi literally stated naruto can summon any toad, Ma can summon Naruto, pa and the gamatrio in an instant and unlike Jiraiya Naruto can use senjutsu in order to summon them. So now that youʻve conceded naruto can summon them, lets continue.
Based on what did it take naruto 5-7 seconds to initiate it? Where are you getting these timeframes of him entering SM?
Now that youʻve admitted that naruto doesnʻt convert all his chakra into senjutsu, then your argument that naruto is only capable of 6 FRS per sennin mode is logically impossible since nothing implies naruto kneeded all of his chakra.
since thatʻs in no way shape or form an argument, then youʻve conceded this as well, therefore Narutoʻs SM does increase his chakra capacity by 150%.
Sasuke is in no way shape or form even on another intelligence level than naruto. Minato explicitly stated Naruto was keeping up with sasuke in the intelligence department. Naruto was the one who was tricking kaguya with his tactics, nott sasuke. And naruto has landed rasengans on madara, nagato, obito, and kakuzu people who are far more experienced and at least as intelligent as sasuke. Also, since youʻve ignored my argument about how madaraʻs statement only applies to madara+ Obito + Juubi, youʻve conceded that the statement doesnʻt apply to Hebi Sasuke.
Iʻve already destroyed any argumentation about Sasukeʻs CQC options, youʻve ignored those arguments therefore youʻve conceded that argument.
So youʻve basically been forced to ignore all of my arguments, which means you have no logical answer to them and therefore youʻve conceded all of them. Pain arc SM Naruto stomps Hebi Sasuke.
sharingansennin
Active member
Sasuke with Senjutsu infused Curse Mark is faster than even EMS Sasuke who was able to stab SM Madara through the arm(Who's faster than SM Naruto) and that was without Curse Mark even. I think people are severly underestimating Hebi Sasuke, Edo Itachi's speed matched KCM Naruto's who is faster than SM Naruto and the edo itachi is inferior to the one Sasuke fought
@lanakui8
You overuse the term concession. Given the fact that I'll only repeat the same stuff, I am tired of indulging you. You lost the debate yourself by pulling stuff out of your hindquarters. The fact you don't even know how Katon attacks work was quite the laugh. SM doesn't increase Chaka volume, it makes it powerful. Not a single scan in the manga supports your argument. Even Pa outright states that NE makes regular chakra powerful, which is why stats are improved. Which is why your fiction is always ignored and it will never interest me.
In short, you had nothing, and you continued to post the same nonsense. SM Naruto is far from being a special case. Far from it. Hebi Sasuke wins decisively Mid difference. This base just loves to over-rate the hell out of this mediocre guy, when the way he scored a win against Pein was a stuff made of the highest degree of bull-shit.
You overuse the term concession. Given the fact that I'll only repeat the same stuff, I am tired of indulging you. You lost the debate yourself by pulling stuff out of your hindquarters. The fact you don't even know how Katon attacks work was quite the laugh. SM doesn't increase Chaka volume, it makes it powerful. Not a single scan in the manga supports your argument. Even Pa outright states that NE makes regular chakra powerful, which is why stats are improved. Which is why your fiction is always ignored and it will never interest me.
In short, you had nothing, and you continued to post the same nonsense. SM Naruto is far from being a special case. Far from it. Hebi Sasuke wins decisively Mid difference. This base just loves to over-rate the hell out of this mediocre guy, when the way he scored a win against Pein was a stuff made of the highest degree of bull-shit.
I donʻt overuse the term concession. When you ignore my argument, you tacitly concede it since an ignored argument shows you donʻt have an answer to them.
You claiming I donʻt know how a katon works without giving any reason is a baseless claim.
Youʻve conceded that converting chakra into senjutsu gives the user more chakra since youʻve ignored my argument. Pa stating Senjutsu powers up ninjutsu, taijutsu, or making chakra more powerful has nothing to do with senjutsu or natural energy NOT making a technique more powerful.
From our discussion youʻve conceded that SM Naruto stomps hebi sasuke. Your arguments were so bad that you had to continuously ignore my arguments, which resulted in you conceding them and thus eventually the thread.
My arguments are not based on narutoʻs win/loss record, SM Naruto could have gotten stomped by pain and my arguments would not have changed since they are based purely on feats and manga explanations about how ninjutsu works.
So once again, I accept your concession on this thread as youʻve been forced to ignore all of my arguments, SM Naruto stomps Hebi sasuke.