Skilled Ninja or Brute Strength

[Unbiased]

This topic is about Hiruzen and Hashirama. Note this isn't a who is better topic it is merely assessing why people think one is better then the other.

Hashirama

Hashirama has the ability to heal, tame bijuu, manipulate water and earth to create wood, and reshape the landscape. He is a Demi God tier ninja worthy of all praise. However that does not mean he is the strongest ninja. In terms of versatility he is good but not the greatest. If you are to fight him one on one, the outcome will be you will most likely lose. Very few Ninja's can fight against him and win the battle. This is why people think he is the strongest, he is literally a powerhouse with near God like powers. He can regenerate from any wound and control multiple tailed beast. He has even fought against the powers of EMS Madara and won.


Hiruzen

Hiruzen is one of those ninja's that is not a powerhouse. He has no special Kekkei Genkei, No special jutsu's, no God like abilities. However he is one of the most skilled ninja's in the entire series. He has displayed the ability to counter any ninjutsu/taijutsu/genjutsu Hashirama could throw at him let alone most ninja's. His ability to collaborate jutsu's makes him a feared opponent and helps show off his title's as God of Shinobi and The Professor.

1: Hashirama's wood release has been shown to be countered by Emna.

2: Hashirama's Genjutsu of Darkness is shown to be countered by hiruzen's sense of smell.

3: Hiruzen has been shown to hold off Hashirama in hand to hand combat, and even slip an explosive tag on him without noticing.

4: Hashirama can heal from any wound. Hiruzen has not shown a technique to one shot hashirama except for potentially Katon: Fire Dragon Napalm.


So while Hashirama may be the "strongest" ninja, he is far from the most skilled. A skilled Ninja does not need Brute destruction in order to win a fight. Hiruzen while using Emna has been shown to counter anything Hiruzen can throw at him. Pollen flowers can be burnt from His Katon: Fire Napalm and Emna has been shown to destroy his wood release.

Now the big question is if Hiruzen can win in a 1 vs 1 fight against Hashirama. I think its debatable. If Hiruzen is able to summon Emna then he has a shot but if not its a no win situation.

Also take into consideration that Edo Tensei's used by Orochimaru were perfected and even while they're mindless, they have been shown to fight at full power. (Nagato and the seven swordsmen for example).

To end my thread, I believe Hiruzen is indeed the most skilled hokage but when it comes to destroying things on a massive scale, Hashirama or Tobirama take that with ease. Even Tsunade can destroy things on a greater scale then Hiruzen. Hashirama's and Hiruzen are able to counter each other all day. I believe its a tie unless one of them makes a mistake.

References
Orochimaru Perfected Edo Tensei:

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Chapters 560-580 have almost all of Hashirama's data in terms of brute strength. Also chapters 117-145 explain Hiruzens character in terms of skill.

These Ninja's have been severely put out of context. Skill is different from Brute strength and that's why debates happen with these Hokage's.

 

[Awkward Linguist]

Youth like Gai.

 

[Dantee]

I believe Prime Hiruzen can beat Hashirama because he knows all of his techs being his student. Hashirama wasn't around when Hiruzen was dubbed God of Shinobi so he won't know what he's capable of.

Enma is also a great counter for Mokoton. So if they were to fight I think Prime Hiruzen would take it high dif.

With that said I do think Hashirama is stronger of the two.

 

[DeadManWonderLand]

This topic is about Hiruzen and Hashirama. Note this isn't a who is better topic it is merely assessing why people think one is better then the other.

Hashirama

Hashirama has the ability to heal, tame bijuu, manipulate water and earth to create wood, and reshape the landscape. He is a Demi God tier ninja worthy of all praise. However that does not mean he is the strongest ninja. In terms of versatility he is good but not the greatest. If you are to fight him one on one, the outcome will be you will most likely lose. Very few Ninja's can fight against him and win the battle. This is why people think he is the strongest, he is literally a powerhouse with near God like powers. He can regenerate from any wound and control multiple tailed beast. He has even fought against the powers of EMS Madara and won.


Hiruzen

Hiruzen is one of those ninja's that is not a powerhouse. He has no special Kekkei Genkei, No special jutsu's, no God like abilities. However he is one of the most skilled ninja's in the entire series. He has displayed the ability to counter any ninjutsu/taijutsu/genjutsu Hashirama could throw at him let alone most ninja's. His ability to collaborate jutsu's makes him a feared opponent and helps show off his title's as God of Shinobi and The Professor.

1: Hashirama's wood release has been shown to be countered by Emna.

2: Hashirama's Genjutsu of Darkness is shown to be countered by hiruzen's sense of smell.

3: Hiruzen has been shown to hold off Hashirama in hand to hand combat, and even slip an explosive tag on him without noticing.

4: Hashirama can heal from any wound. Hiruzen has not shown a technique to one shot hashirama except for potentially Katon: Fire Dragon Napalm.


So while Hashirama may be the "strongest" ninja, he is far from the most skilled. A skilled Ninja does not need Brute destruction in order to win a fight. Hiruzen while using Emna has been shown to counter anything Hiruzen can throw at him. Pollen flowers can be burnt from His Katon: Fire Napalm and Emna has been shown to destroy his wood release.

Now the big question is if Hiruzen can win in a 1 vs 1 fight against Hashirama. I think its debatable. If Hiruzen is able to summon Emna then he has a shot but if not its a no win situation.

Also take into consideration that Edo Tensei's used by Orochimaru were perfected and even while they're mindless, they have been shown to fight at full power. (Nagato and the seven swordsmen for example).

To end my thread, I believe Hiruzen is indeed the most skilled hokage but when it comes to destroying things on a massive scale, Hashirama or Tobirama take that with ease. Even Tsunade can destroy things on a greater scale then Hiruzen. Hashirama's and Hiruzen are able to counter each other all day. I believe its a tie unless one of them makes a mistake.

References
Orochimaru Perfected Edo Tensei:

You must be registered for see links

Chapters 560-580 have almost all of Hashirama's data in terms of brute strength. Also chapters 117-145 explain Hiruzens character in terms of skill.

These Ninja's have been severely put out of context. Skill is different from Brute strength and that's why debates happen with these Hokage's.

Hiruzen is the strongest kage of his generation not of all time
the first and second hokage are not apart of his generation kabuto was talking about the shinobi who were kage in the same era as hiruzen.
Hiruzen sealed them he did not defeat them.their is a difference.
I know you are are not stating who is stronger but i have to point that out because people obviously have no idea what of all time and generation means.


Second i think you have no idea what skill means.Just because Hiruzen knows more overall justu it does not correlate to hashirama not being skilled.
You pointed it out yourself that in a one on one fight nobody is likely to win
and even go far to say he is a demi god.Yet you say he is not the strongest
what is your definition of strongest then ? lol You then turn around and say
few can beat him.There is nobody to date proven to be strong enough to beat him.That is fact.Not an opinion.

Let me give you the term for the word skill.
The capacity to carry out pre-determined results often with the minimum outlay of time, energy, or both. In other words the abilities that one possesses.

It is not who knows more justu overall.

I have no idea what your trying to point out but you should at least make some sense while doing it.How does the wood release being able to heal without handseals control bijuu translate to brute strength ?
My mind can't even begin to comprehend how confused you are on what brute strength and skill means

 

[Unbiased]

I believe Prime Hiruzen can beat Hashirama because he knows all of his techs being his student. Hashirama wasn't around when Hiruzen was dubbed God of Shinobi so he won't know what he's capable of.

Enma is also a great counter for Mokoton. So if they were to fight I think Prime Hiruzen would take it high dif.

With that said I think Hashirama is stronger.

The way I see strength is different. Hashirama is truly stronger, but in a fight with these two characters its merely a battle of endurance. Both can counter each other with their own various jutsu's and skills. If its prime Hiruzen then possibly high difficulty. If he's like old Hiruzen except with better speed and endurance then for sure.

Then again Hashirama can create a sea of wood and Hiruzen would be on his toes destroying it while Hashirama can attack. Its a very difficult fight for both of them.

 

[Gooner4life]

I think Hiruzen is undoubtedly more skilled, his God of Shinobi moniker was given to him because he is a master shinobi and his mastery of the ninja arts is unrivalled. I still think Hashirama can win, simply because of the gap in brute force.

Although Hiruzen is more skilled, Hashirama isn't exactly unskilled and the gap in their skill wouldn't be as much as the gap in their brute force, Mokuton's sheer power is too much for Enma to handle all at once, especially if a forest is created. Hashirama wins this very high diff.

 

[Unbiased]

Hiruzen is the strongest kage of his generation not of all time
the first and second hokage are not apart of his generation kabuto was talking about the shinobi who were kage in the same era as hiruzen.
Hiruzen sealed them he did not defeat them.their is a difference.
I know you are are not stating who is stronger but i have to point that out because people obviously have no idea what of all time and generation means.


Second i think you have no idea what skill means.Just because Hiruzen knows more overall justu it does not correlate to hashirama not being skilled.
You pointed it out yourself that in a one on one fight nobody is likely to win
and even go far to say he is a demi god.Yet you say he is not the strongest
what is your definition of strongest then ? lol You then turn around and say
few can beat him.There is nobody to date proven to be strong enough to beat him.That is fact.Not an opinion.

Let me give you the term for the word skill.
The capacity to carry out pre-determined results often with the minimum outlay of time, energy, or both. In other words the abilities that one possesses.

It is not who knows more justu overall.

I have no idea what your trying to point out but you should at least make some sense while doing it.How does the wood release being able to heal without handseals control bijuu translate to brute strength ?
My mind can't even begin to comprehend how confused you are on what brute strength and skill means

Hashirama can completely reshape the landscape to his desire. That is mass destruction. The battlefield can meet his needs that is why I consider him having brute strength.

To explain what skill is, lets look at Shikamaru. He has no destructive jutsu's like Hiruzen yet he tends to never lose a fight one on one. That is what I mean by skill. Never once did I mention Hiruzen having more jutsu, its just hiruzen has the ability to counter any ninjutsu that has been thrown at him to date. Tobirama's Suiton was countered, Hashirama's Mokuton was countered, All 3 of their Taijutsu was countered, Genjutsu was countered as well. That is what skill is.

Sealing is defeating someone. Are you saying that all the Ninja's that have been sealed in the 4th Shinobi war were not beaten? Even if you die in the process you still beat the enemy you have sealed.

 

[lIlIlIl]

Hiruzen is the strongest kage of his generation not of all time
the first and second hokage are not apart of his generation kabuto was talking about the shinobi who were kage in the same era as hiruzen.
Hiruzen sealed them he did not defeat them.their is a difference.
I know you are are not stating who is stronger but i have to point that out because people obviously have no idea what of all time and generation means.


Second i think you have no idea what skill means.Just because Hiruzen knows more overall justu it does not correlate to hashirama not being skilled.
You pointed it out yourself that in a one on one fight nobody is likely to win
and even go far to say he is a demi god.Yet you say he is not the strongest
what is your definition of strongest then ? lol You then turn around and say
few can beat him.There is nobody to date proven to be strong enough to beat him.That is fact.Not an opinion.

Let me give you the term for the word skill.
The capacity to carry out pre-determined results often with the minimum outlay of time, energy, or both. In other words the abilities that one possesses.

It is not who knows more justu overall.

I have no idea what your trying to point out but you should at least make some sense while doing it.How does the wood release being able to heal without handseals control bijuu translate to brute strength ?
My mind can't even begin to comprehend how confused you are on what brute strength and skill means

lol ur stupid get ur facts straight, hiruzen is the strongest hokage that konoha has EVER had :flaw:

 

[Arcaneos510X]

I believe Prime Hiruzen can beat Hashirama because he knows all of his techs being his student. Hashirama wasn't around when Hiruzen was dubbed God of Shinobi so he won't know what he's capable of.

Enma is also a great counter for Mokoton. So if they were to fight I think Prime Hiruzen would take it high dif.

With that said I do think Hashirama is stronger of the two.

"because he knows all of his techs being his student." realy he was tobirama's student dude 21 K posts man you got a rep to up-hold.

 

[OnPoint]

The Senju Clan means the 'clan with a thousand skills', so there's not such a gap between their skill set as you'd like to believe. No point in asking for feats since Hiruzen hardly showcased what he was capable of either. Madara even called Hashirama the

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in the official VIZ scan - everyone knows a shinobi is not just about raw strength, so why else would Madara say that if Shodai was just all about power (as you wrongly claim)?

 

[Unbiased]

"because he knows all of his techs being his student." realy he was tobirama's student dude 21 K posts man you got a rep to up-hold.

He also trained under Hashirama as well. But it wasn't as extensively as Tobirama. You both are right lol.

 

[Gooner4life]

"because he knows all of his techs being his student." realy he was tobirama's student dude 21 K posts man you got a rep to up-hold.

He was the student of both of them, he was formally put in Tobirama's team when the whole system was put together but he was taught by both.

 

[Dantee]

"because he knows all of his techs being his student." realy he was tobirama's student dude 21 K posts man you got a rep to up-hold.

How dum you must feel. I know what I'm talking about.

 

[SatchiZurake]

Hashirama wasn't just born with all of those techniques. Well technically he was born with mokuton, but still. His techniques are so powerful because he has the skill to use them well. He couldn't use his wood style on such a massive scale if he didn't have the skills to do so. Or regenerate himself without handseals if he didn't have extreme skills in medical ninjutsu.

Also, we have no evidence to date that Hashirama doesn't have the tactical skills that Hiruzen does. The only fight he was ever in that we've seen was being controlled by Orochimaru. And I think it's safe to say that Orochimaru was drawing that fight out as long as possible for his own sadistic pleasure. Enma may be able to break through mokution but Hashirama's wood style at full scale would be too overwhelming. In Bringer of Darkness, he got knocked around quite a bit before he started to fight back. Had Orochimaru gone in for the kill instead of toying with him, he wouldn't have survived.
Hand to hand combat, I'll admit, that was impressive on Hiruzen's part. And, like you said before, Hashirama can heal from anything Hiruzen throws at him. Hashi has water style to counter any of Hiruzen's fire techniques. In the end, the only chance Hiruzen has against him is the Reaper Death Seal and that just results in a draw.

 

[Icelerate]

IMO they are equal, Hashirama has more power but Hiruzen is more versatile and will know how to counter Hashirama's abilities as he was his student. If they were to fight, Hiruzen will have difficulty killing Hashirama because of his regeneration which will force Hiruzen to use RDS to seal the both of them. In other words, they would draw like they did in the manga.