[Game] SK-Tower Of God! The Great War!!! #28

XTMF

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First three posts in the game where he manages to call someone out, accuse Luk of being scum, and dodging a question.

475

His hand sure heals fast.

469
509

Two posts where he seems to buddy Ratchet.

603

Says he can't read Poison at all. Convenient.

880
908

Defensive of being linked with Poison.

1052

Another player (Michelle) where he admits he just can't read them.

1469

I think Hou saying that he wasn't going to be around EOD and then seeing how active he really was, makes this post a bit odd in retrospect.

1529

This is a really interesting post from Hou saying he's not going to vote Poison this phase after asking people what they thought about her lynch a few times. I know he flip flopped hard EOD, but to me, why constantly ask people what they think about Poison only to then come out and say you're not voting her this phase? Seems like he was maybe figuring out the best way to get town credit off her lynch.

1534

It's funny because, although I can't be certain it's the first mention of the idea but it's definitely one of the firsts, Hou brings up the idea that Kyte might be scum based on his read of Poison. At this point, no one knows Poison's alignment and her lynch wasn't red hot, so I don't really understand why Hou straight up called Kyte scum for his read. It's almost like Hou slipped here with TMI and was already trying to set up a mislynch here if Poison flipped scum.

1539

This is his second time offering up All_Red as a counter wagon despite only having eleven posts in the game. This was something I actually called out on the time because I just don't know how All_Red was an appropriate counter wagon to Poison given the circumstances. I think if Hou flips scum, All_Red might have been spewed town here.

1544

I actually don't even know what this gibberish is. Literally fifteen posts after he said he's never going to vote for Poison, he says he didn't mean it. What? He actually then uses RGK as a counter wagon for whatever reason. Not sure if RGK (Oshie) gets as much town equity as All_Red just because Hou offered up All_Red more than once. RGK might have just been a bluff, but felt less genuine than All_Red.

1568

LOL votes Poison after all this time. I know town can switch their minds, but there's no legitimate reason for a townie to spazz out like that at this point. I think what happened really was that Hou was torn between bussing and saving Poison and got caught in between what he really wanted to do and how to do it.

1602

Well, now he;s on Toujo. And this starts his push on the Toujo wagon.

1615

He drops that scum are probably on the Poison lynch. Nice.

1688

A reminder that this is how strongly Hou felt about Ratchet being scum at one point in this game.

1728

Here's a real juicy post. I like how he's already preparing his excuse for if Poison flips scum. TMI? Why try to set that up?

1764

For some reason Hou brings up that it's weird that Ratchet and I have town reads on each other. He also thinks I'm defending Ratchet which I was to a point, but more so I was convinced Poison was scum.

1891

Here's the post where he said he's fairly new at Mafia, yet he made a post recently how he's experienced enough to make town posts as scum. I just feel like he's been using his level of experience in different ways here.

2025

Now this is just a straight up lie that he thought Poison was a great lynch candidate, because if he had, he wouldn't have tunneled Ratchet like he did.

2041

Weird comment on Michelle's kill. "I assume scum has no motivation on that kill". Scum ALWAYS have motivation for a kill. It seems like Hou was trying to brush off any conversation on why Michelle was killed.

2054

Seems like pretty prepared day lynches, especially how he already shaded Kyte in D1 about potentially being scum for his Poison read. Despite everything Hou might say in D2, he never changed his vote off of Kyte.

2074

So this is Hou's third time saying that it HAS to be one scum between Kyte or Ansa but never gives reasons as to why. Is that a town thing to do?

2111

When Ansa asks what Hou's objective is, Hou says these are raw thoughts that aren't developed. But, it seems like he's pretty determined to go after the both of them despite having undeveloped reads.

2178

Here comes Hou creeping up on Kyte. Instead of calling him out for his read on Poison (like he did in D1) he just says that they had no interaction. Nice soft push.

2189

I actually don't think that the interactions between Ratchet and Poison are all THAT clearing to completely switch your death hunt of him.

2267

This post throws me off as well. Like, he's completely alright with a potential mislynch of Kyte and then says we have Ratchet next.

2305

This is like the second or third time he said 'watch out if I get serioues!'. Why?

2436

Personally, this is a pretty damning post by Hou for me. So I had given a POE and he called it gross (without any explanation, go figure) and when I asked him to clarify, he asked me why I found Ansa (as well as RGK/AL) suspicious. The bizarre thing is why are you calling my reads gross on RGK and Ansa when you voted RGK D1 near EOD and also opened D2 saying there had to be scum between Kyte and Ansa. My reads shouldn't be that far from the opinion you once had that you have to call my post out.

2805
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3246
Throwing out Just_Red again. Poor Red. :no: I will say with the amount of times Hou suggested lynching Just_Red, he never gave a reason once.

2969

Funny, Hou had said that he was open to another wagon earlier in the game (obviously with the Just_Red sacrifice) but that there probably wasn't enough time to get a switch. Well, when the Ansa train picked up, even though he had doubts about the Kyte train (and to be fair he said he doubted Ansa as well), he weirdly doubles down and says he won't be moving his vote from Kyte. The reason seemed like bull shit as well.

3002

TMI?

3135

I just have a laugh out of irony here with Hou asking someone to clarify there reasons for doing when he's been doing it all game.

3246

So this is a noted Just_Red suggestion by Hou because he switches off of suspecting me, Ratchet, and Bee (as his reads) once Ansa suggested Red.

3349

Here's where Hou finally decides to come after me after we have our back and forth. Based on how he seemed to be looking for a place to hang his vote, I think this is in reaction of me coming after him. He still has yet to give me a case on why he thinks I'm scummy other than being a nuisance and how I've apparently acted after Kyte flipped.

3404

Says he doesn't go into detail unless he's really sure about something. Considering you suggested a Just_Red over ten times in this game, without a SINGLE reason as to why, when should I expect you to become serious about something?

3429

I wonder if @Houtarou; is going to ignore me now?
 

XTMF

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Also, there are three 'main' things that are extra suspicious from Houtarou's play. I'll get to them in a bit because that iso understandably took a bit of time.
 

XTMF

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Okay, so one of the big offenders that Hou has committed is that he hasn't given a lot of explanation for the things he says in the thread. For example, he's offered @Just_Red to the lambs over ten times this game but has yet to give a single reason as to why. However, he has also used it to discredit a lot of people's ideas and posts by simply saying 'gross' and then never going back to say why unless confronted. These posts come in a few different shapes and sizes, and there are a few in there that he attempts at giving a reason, but it's fluffy. I haven't linked them so if you don't believe me, go look them up yourselves.

'Gross' Posts (x14)
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3431
 

XTMF

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The second piece of evidence from the main exhibit is the soft pushing that Houtarou does. This is very similar to him never giving reasons for his thoughts, but instead he just shades them.

Soft-Pushing Posts (x22)
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940
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992
1056
1461
1489
1532
1547
1754
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XTMF

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The last piece of evidence from the main exhibit is what I call his 'hard clears' of town, where he says that so and so must be town, but doesn't given reasons. This reads as TMI to me and no townie would try to clear townies this way without reason. Seems more like a pocket/buddying attempt from Hou. Some of them are more clear than others. He does this five times.

He first does it with Imp, though I admit it's the weakest one.

I wouldn't try to make much out of Imperfection big post where he gave his reads, though that post didn't exactly give anything worthwhile it felt genuine, yes his post did felt like he was trying to fit in the game, somewhat forced but do I see this bad? Not exactly since whether town or scum everyone here to say my peers trying to fit in the game thread. This means his post wasn't exactly helpful but the attempt of trying to play a game and giving his opinion to all players this what felt genuine to me
Admittedly, this is another weak one, but this is a confident, no explanation read on Tiger here.

She's town
Now he's positive about Imp due to voting pattern.

I would actually exclude RGK and Imp for now... I am kind of positive about Imp definitely being town.. you can pretty much see doubts and get good reading by last day phase voting pattern
Here's a hard clear on Ansa without explanation.

@osieorb18 Ansa is not scum and I can't see how you can't see that
And here is he unsolicited, confident, no explanation clear of Alice.

Alice is a town and if someone can't see that then they're blind
 

osieorb18

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More stream of consciousness thoughts coming, this time in the form of responses. I'm going to break them up into clumps of posts to avoid getting prodded. (And I thought I was strict about this sort of thing.)

%%%%%
%%%%%

feel like my lynch has already been decided and here we have @osieorb18 who not just long had me in his strongest town read now have a place in his PoE seeing that I am a lynch candidate this phase. Sure good gameplay
I had you dropping into my PoE prior to any suspicion on you. I pointed out scummy behaviour from you near the start of the day phase. You also were never a stronger townread than Toujo. This constant misrepresentation of my posts and continued constant shade in a large number of your posts are further scum points for you. You saying your elimination is likely may be a self-fulfilling prophecy.

Also, telling me that I'm playing badly doesn't help reads of your alignment. It makes the game, and in turn, the community, less enjoyable for a player who is unfamiliar to said community, while helping to cement a desire to get you out of the game as someone anti-town.

%%%%%
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One of these people I think could be scum. Tbh I think beebot is scum. While Red and Tigerrr really gave me an anxiety. I'm going to look into Tigerrr's vote on Poison and it's vibe. As for Red, does her role is the reason she's coming less contributive, less active? The white slayer?
Is neutral hunting particularly helpful at this time? Usually in my experience it's better to save it until after scumhunting.

%%%%%
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@Aether9 - On what read are you asking me for elaboration?

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Apparently we get publicly prodded if we aren't posting at a rate of something like quadruple the minimum rate?

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Houtarou's handling of Ansa suggests that Red is town and Houtarou is trying to direct Ansa towards a mis-elimination.

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Scum tends to act consistent and are you sure you can read my mind since you need to do that for to actually say I have no reason
No, there tends to be a contradiction in scum's posts. Because they're lying.

Also, noone is saying that you definitely have zero reason for something in a game of mafia if they say there's no reason. Instead they're saying that you've shown no reason. The same is true about most of your other complaints about what people have said about you. Your persecution complex looks very scummy.

%%%%%
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Houtarou's flailing in posts like 3294 feels like caught scum. He's treating people like they're stupid if they don't townread him. He's misrepresenting people and shading them while crying about being shaded and being called out for scummy behaviours.

Houtarou is my elimination choice for the day unless a fantastic case is made elsewhere.
 

XTMF

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Voting Tally
TheLukundo:
Houtarou
Ansatsuken: Aether9 > Toujo
Ryu Kishi: Toujo
osieorb18: Houtarou
XTMF: Houtarou


Voting Count
Houtarou:
x3
Toujo:
x2


Vote count aligns so far.
 

SoulKiller

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More stream of consciousness thoughts coming, this time in the form of responses. I'm going to break them up into clumps of posts to avoid getting prodded. (And I thought I was strict about this sort of thing.)
I am not even being strict yet. If I was dead bodies would be laying around.

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osieorb18

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Wow, did Houtarou just admit to trying to direct votes away from scum? That seems incredibly self-aware of what they were doing.

%%%%%
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@Imperfection - If you're town, listen to me here, please. I was scumreading you somewhat on activity and somewhat on what sorta felt to me like a posturing swagger. I don't feel like there's a lot of sorting in your posts, but I could be convinced that you're town if I see what looks like an honest effort to solve. Your posts near EoD were particularly worrisome to me, feeling somewhat like wolfy pop-ins. You're not one of my strongest scumreads, you're just in the PoE since I'm not convinced yet one way or another.

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Indirectly all your posts so far trying to give the impression you throwing random shades on me I don't think it's hard to see... for real. Let's not fake it
let me be very clear

I

Am

Not

Voting

For

You

This

Day

Phase
Why not?

%%%%%
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Because I know all people here really love Toujo. I have tried to lynch him for two straight days and what I'm ended up with? A disappointment.

Aether is my other scum read. You should ISO me, you should.
Without dismissing it offhand as wine, because it's not, what do you think of the argument that Toujo's specific manner of expressing frustration about their potential elimination feels townie? Also, if you feel that Houtarou isn't a good elimination for toDay, why do you feel that way?

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Lurking, probably. Which tells me scum are pretty happy with how this day is going.
Or they don't want to associate themselves with one of the wagons because that person is flailing. (Houtarou.)
 

Premfection

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@Imperfection - If you're town, listen to me here, please. I was scumreading you somewhat on activity and somewhat on what sorta felt to me like a posturing swagger. I don't feel like there's a lot of sorting in your posts, but I could be convinced that you're town if I see what looks like an honest effort to solve. Your posts near EoD were particularly worrisome to me, feeling somewhat like wolfy pop-ins. You're not one of my strongest scumreads, you're just in the PoE since I'm not convinced yet one way or another.
Alright, that makes sense to me actually. I was confused in both day phases so far before this one because of the thread state which was a lot of picking sides (first poison vs toujo dp1, then toujo vs kyte dp2), and I can see how my posts don't have a lot to offer. I dont know how much this will help you, but I will try to show the progression of my thoughts the best I can if that might help, then give you my leans.

In DP1 I was concerned about Poison because there was an obvious difference in attitude from when she usually plays at least in the two games i was in with her, but I trusted that because of her playing in another game that she was only acting that way because of stress of being in two games (which she had explained later). The only thing that set me off on being almost completely sure that Poison was scum was the attack that was used on everyone that redid all the votes when poison was the leading wagon at the time. When she was revealed to be scum, one of the main pushers for her lynch, Toujo, I ended up trusting a lot for that reason. Oreki and Kyte however, who were pushing for Toujo which seemed out of the blue to me, didnt look as good (maybe because i wasnt really reading toujo at all that time and was looking at other people). You could see by the end of DP1 that I was extremely doubtful in lynching poison at the time.
In DP2 was when I tried to look a little more into what happened and what set off Toujo suspicion, but a major problem that I had with the argument was when kyte and ansa said that toujo was pushing their own teammate in order to get townie points. But I wasnt set on believing that. There was another argument ansa made that scum wouldnt push so hard to save their scum buddy if it would only make them look scummy once they flip, but then X made the argument of theres its possible that poison was being saved because of her skills which looked legit to me, and PK had also said something about players of high caliber usually, like Toujo, would not want to lose a single scum buddy to win, especially on DP1. As such, I wasnt set on believing Kyte or Ansa, and when I saw that you, who was giving me scummy vibes at the time, especially because i was unsure about RGK to begin with - panicked and thought it was another rescue attempt.

Sorry for the summary, I hope there is something to get from that.

So now what I'm saying is, because of Kyte flip, I'm more inclined to vote Toujo and believe the arguments that were made there. At the same time, part of me feels that the Toujo topic has been going on for so long that it feels like a sort of scheme at this point to keep the thread state here.
At the same time, I'm inclined to look elsewhere because I feel there are others that strike me as odd, specifically AL.

I also see there was a huge argument on Oreki which I plan to take a look at.

Hope this helps somewhat lol
 

osieorb18

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Alright, that makes sense to me actually. I was confused in both day phases so far before this one because of the thread state which was a lot of picking sides (first poison vs toujo dp1, then toujo vs kyte dp2), and I can see how my posts don't have a lot to offer. I dont know how much this will help you, but I will try to show the progression of my thoughts the best I can if that might help, then give you my leans.

In DP1 I was concerned about Poison because there was an obvious difference in attitude from when she usually plays at least in the two games i was in with her, but I trusted that because of her playing in another game that she was only acting that way because of stress of being in two games (which she had explained later). The only thing that set me off on being almost completely sure that Poison was scum was the attack that was used on everyone that redid all the votes when poison was the leading wagon at the time. When she was revealed to be scum, one of the main pushers for her lynch, Toujo, I ended up trusting a lot for that reason. Oreki and Kyte however, who were pushing for Toujo which seemed out of the blue to me, didnt look as good (maybe because i wasnt really reading toujo at all that time and was looking at other people). You could see by the end of DP1 that I was extremely doubtful in lynching poison at the time.
In DP2 was when I tried to look a little more into what happened and what set off Toujo suspicion, but a major problem that I had with the argument was when kyte and ansa said that toujo was pushing their own teammate in order to get townie points. But I wasnt set on believing that. There was another argument ansa made that scum wouldnt push so hard to save their scum buddy if it would only make them look scummy once they flip, but then X made the argument of theres its possible that poison was being saved because of her skills which looked legit to me, and PK had also said something about players of high caliber usually, like Toujo, would not want to lose a single scum buddy to win, especially on DP1. As such, I wasnt set on believing Kyte or Ansa, and when I saw that you, who was giving me scummy vibes at the time, especially because i was unsure about RGK to begin with - panicked and thought it was another rescue attempt.

Sorry for the summary, I hope there is something to get from that.

So now what I'm saying is, because of Kyte flip, I'm more inclined to vote Toujo and believe the arguments that were made there. At the same time, part of me feels that the Toujo topic has been going on for so long that it feels like a sort of scheme at this point to keep the thread state here.
At the same time, I'm inclined to look elsewhere because I feel there are others that strike me as odd, specifically AL.

I also see there was a huge argument on Oreki which I plan to take a look at.

Hope this helps somewhat lol
Interesting. What do you think of the thought that myself and others expressed last phase that the Kyte_ vs Toujo wagons were likely town/town?
 

Premfection

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Interesting. What do you think of the thought that myself and others expressed last phase that the Kyte_ vs Toujo wagons were likely town/town?
I think its likely. Mostly because the argument that Toujo voted his scum buddy off doesnt sit well with me still, but I was thinking more about it after Kyte flip. If you want, you could look back at the conversation here I had with kyte about it here (ill quote where it starts because i dont know how to link posts)

Taijo was in a bad position, but so was Poison. What makes you think that either of them would not take the opportunity to take part in the lynch wagon, and gain town credit?

Do you remember in my last game where I went over and beyond to lead the lynch wagon on @-PK- after i had bussed him for several DPs, and how effective it was? (it was better executed than the Poison - Taujo case, but that's beside the point)

It's really not uncommon among players, if they can weigh the consequences vs. drawbacks right.

@TheLukundo
^ you should be able to click that little arrow untop the quote to go that conversation.

I sort of feel like it might be town vs town because of this. I know Kyte flipped town, but voting another scum buddy this early with those abilities feels unlikely to me. Not impossible, but unlikely. I feel I'd be more inclined to believe that that was what happened if there was no abilities at all, and it wasnt the very first day phase. I could be wrong but idk
 

Ansatsuken

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Voting Tally
TheLukundo:
Houtarou
Ansatsuken: Aether9 > Toujo
Ryu Kishi: Toujo
osieorb18: Houtarou
XTMF: Houtarou


Voting Count
Houtarou:
x3
Toujo: x2


Vote count aligns so far.
So Toujo isn't voting yet. And why I had a feeling that Houtarou was avoiding to vote Toujo after the first DP even though he sometimes could be suggesting that he can see scum in Toujo. Its like he was trying to distancing. He's not even voting yet.
 

osieorb18

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So Toujo isn't voting yet. And why I had a feeling that Houtarou was avoiding to vote Toujo after the first DP even though he sometimes could be suggesting that he can see scum in Toujo. Its like he was trying to distancing. He's not even voting yet.
I'd be more interested in listening to this after a Houtarou flip, tbh. You might have a point, but Toujo did feel townie on D2 and Houtarou has been steadily on the decline.
 
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