Sigh. Last post on this for real this time. If this doesn't get through then I've no idea. I cannot Red - Begging the Question fallacy. The conclusion, that my posts are designed to mislead town, is presented as one of the premises given for said conclusion. Clearly, the idea that the conclusion supports the conclusion is illogical. Blue - Appeal to Logos. The conclusion made is that the Town at large will automatically make a conclusion, and this conclusion is not supported. Indeed, don't take my word for it. Simply reading the thread will establish that this by no means is how the Town has acted in this game. Forget not being supported, it is abjectly untrue. This is also a critique of my playstyle, which is useless for discerning my alignment. Green - Loaded question fallacy. It makes an assumption on what I wanted, and then asks the question presuming that assumption to be true. The fact of the matter is, no I do not want that. If people don't want to read, in a text-based forum game centered around discussion and debate, then I can't help them. I would suggest that Mafia probably isn't the game for them. Purple - Argumentum ad nauseam fallacy. It takes points that have already been addressed/conceded, and repackages them, to make them appear to be new information, and thus give the appearence of a stronger argument than what is actually presented. The quote below is where this was addressed/conceded.
Note - There have still been exactly 0 examples provided by Ryu to date, to support any of his claims.
Emphasis mine.
Any more fallacies you have that I need to point out, or are we done here Ryu?
Don’t sell him short, Tougu. I’ve noticed your playstyle 2 posts into the game and looks like more players have eyed you up as well. But, let me say that you've denied them beautifully
Toujo seems to have adopted a play-style aiming at driving the narrative of the game and establishing himself as some sort of a "leading player". He's already taken the initiative to set himself up early to do so. This is ideally no more than a style of play and not alignment-indicative, but I look back and I can't help but think that many of the arguments he's sparked are either pointless or potentially just scoring some town credit. Nothing that I especially lighting any red lights so far, though.
I can think of someone else whose playstyle is similar; SK. I also see some resemblance I've only found this playstyle relevant for SK and maybe he shares the skeptic element of your usual approach to mafia, too.
Let me repeat my take on you since you seem to have patently ignored my initial post. It seems that you, sire, have almost been running through a dictionary of common sentiments in ideal mafia and slapping them right into the thread whenever applicable. I’ve seen many people like that so this isn’t exactly impressive for someone who has several years of experience under his belt, but the problem is once you peel off the outer skin of your arguments, they are almost all filled with as many holes as a slice of swiss cheese.
Also, you always persistently attach more depth to things that might obviously be a relatively small observation. It's like you’re fabricating an argument that doesn't exist entirely to give it the impression that it's based on more than it is. I'm having a hard time seeing this as anything other than pseudo-scumhunting; an argument that gives the impression it's hunting scum when it really achieves nothing to that ends.
Let me follow this up with some examples; Imperfection feels short to his “beginner analysis” after which he claims (to your request of elaboration) that he needs to be paranoid about you, and of everyone else. A sort of a nonsense statement, but ultimately inconsequential from a newbie. Here comes you who almost set a red flag at his reply and navigated the conversation somehow into exploiting his falsies at the end, and setting him up for suspicion.
That's not what I asked. I mean to say, if you're being extra paranoid in regards to me, then what are you using to inform your read of me? Or are you not going to try to get a read on me at all?
Well right now I think you are town just based on activity rn, first day I don't have much to go by although the activity is helping slightly. I'm going to wait for what happens in the future to determine whether I continue to keep that read is all.
I know that by playing as scum with experienced players that they pull some confusing ah moves and im only really saying that I think youre capable of that
Ooh, this is unimpressive. So we've established that you seem to think I'm a high calibre scum player, and... you're reading me town because of activity. Because if this is you being extra paranoid, I have to wonder what you being naive looks like. Would you not think activity is the easiest thing to create as scum?
Bolded - No, absolutely not. You, if town, should never be waiting to see what happens. You should be looking to create your own reads, whether that is by prodding in certain ways, engaging, arguing, whatever. Why are you waiting for someone else to get your own read for you?
It's a loop that i see repeated whenever you open your mouth.
It’s also interesting to note down that at the time you were interrogating Imperfection, there were many discussions on display that should’ve been more worthy of your attention; for example: 1. Michelle’s vote on you, 2. Myself falsifying your logic on Imperfection’s “analysis” and 3. Shading your potential deep wolfing gameplay in another post. Yet you decided you need to dig your fangs deep into the newbie for that one encounter to which you later claims “you’re struggling to understand him”... No, you're not. What’s even more ironic that when asked about your opinion on AL, you say that you don’t like how he’s avoided discussing your meta:
Al - I've liked he seems to have caught what I've seen with your play in some parts, and in general he's been kind of broadly on the same page as me. He loses points because I'm still not a fan of how he avoided really discussing my meta, felt like he just didn't want to engage with what. Though, gun to head, town.
Kyte I've seen very little of. His activity will need to improve in short order. I don't like how indirect he has been regarding his arguments - things I felt were better addressed to me for instance where towards Al. Null is my read here, though, as I don't see the above as egregious enough to justify a scum read.
On another note, you say that you’re not a fan of how I’ve indirectly addressed points about you to AL. Honey, why had you not addressed these accusations yourself then and there, if you were planning to hold me accountable for it, at one point. It’s rather odd that someone, who probably holds a record for the amount of content in the first 24 hours and finds joy in jumping the gun to interrogate players, would not care enough to clear the shade on him, be it presented in a direct or an indirect manner. Also, when I talked about you, it was in a completely valid context of elaborating on my stance on you to someone who initially argued that I’m falsely accusing you in an attempt to buddy him. AL can just confirm this, because it’s too much effort to go back.
There are several other examples where you’ve almost been enforcing points to feed into your arguments, or simply acting based on arbitrary vivid statement abundant in terminologies. Yes, you’re certainly good at picking your words, which doesn’t come to surprise me since you’re quite experienced. Anyways, I won’t go on your case with other players, because it’s an ongoing loop, of the same process. And I’ve made a lot of emphasis on the case of Imperfection.
So, what I want to know is whether you're a town looking for opportunities to flex his muscles or a tactical wolf poorly exploiting his experience?
@AL_sama If you're town with the line of thinking that your lynch will provide evidence, info, a path towards scum lynch then let me enlighten that you're gravely mistaken. Exactly this behavior of yours leading some players to cast a vote on you and you're in the line of thinking that a scum maybe just trying to get easy lynch. That's not exactly right. Maybe you merely pooling all their posts together and come to that conclusion or whatever reason you've for this thinking. Just get right to the point if you're town then you're in the pavement that will lead some town to go through some rough phase and arguments
I'm so close to paying my goodbyes to our esteemed guest too early into the game, depending on his reply. It won't be an easy decision, because it will backfire greatly if he's indeed town, so i'm not rushing anything.
On a lighter note, Luk's posts have been subpar, in my opinion. I feel like he has deliberately set a low standard for his arguments, so they'd be easily brushed off as jests or not-serious whenever he wants. Not a big fan, especially when he's jumped between the highest number of votes. Bold move, nevertheless.
Speaking of bold, The Alliance X has proposed is very. Can anyone enlighten me on his experience level?
I read this post, and all the quotes attatched. But where is the elaboration? You claim my arguments are full of holes, yet haven't pointed to a single "hole". You say I'm attatching more depth to something than it deserves, but fail to establish both that it is undeserving of this depth, and also why seeking to scratch beneath the surface of said posts is a bad thing. You complain I pointed towards Imperfection, and insist that there should have been things there that demanded my attention more, but fail to establish exactly why that is. I engaged with Imperfection because that is how I am going to be able to read him. As you can see, in our back and forth, Imperfection tripped himself up - nowhere there did I lead him on in that regard. You point to three things that I should have paid more attention to. I don't really understand what you're getting at with 2 and 3, but 1 is fairly simple - why did I not see fit to address Michelle's vote on me? Because it's the RVS. There was no need or value for me to engage with that vote whatsoever. One of the flaws of RVS is that when it is clear that it is RVS, it loses its meaning and weighting.
In regards to my AL point, I think I made it pretty clearly. I wasn't entirely fond of how, when asked to provide a meta on me, he deflected to "he just changes it every game". While I am certainly capable of this, the majority of Al's experience with me should have come from OJ. On OJ, I was one of the coaches who ran the section. Which is to say, my playstyle there was designed to be as informative and offer as many learning points as possible. So while his statement was technically true, that should not have been his experience with me.
I didn't address anything at you because I felt no need to do so. You were speaking about me, within the context of AL. Failing any actual accusations, there isn't a lot I can say to them, and there is no value in a one-sided discussion. I don't feel the need to address each and every thing someone says against me. That would require me to spend most of my time defending, and moreover is somewhat overdefensive.
I'm not sure I understand the last sentence. How, exactly, would I be exploiting my own experience? You yourself, in this very post, claimed you were unimpressed with what I had put forward, so if I am exploiting my experience here, I must be doing a pretty poor job of it. I feel like you've dismissed a lot of what I've said in this game because it's wordy and terminology-heavy, which isn't a fair way to approach this.
You'll probaby find it funny to know I tried being relatively concise in that one too. I think I'm going to have to start taking up bulletpoints. Or quote arrows.
@AL_sama If you're town with the line of thinking that your lynch will provide evidence, info, a path towards scum lynch then let me enlighten that you're gravely mistaken. Exactly this behavior of yours leading some players to cast a vote on you and you're in the line of thinking that a scum maybe just trying to get easy lynch. That's not exactly right. Maybe you merely pooling all their posts together and come to that conclusion or whatever reason you've for this thinking. Just get right to the point if you're town then you're in the pavement that will lead some town to go through some rough phase and arguments
How stupid. It would be nice if you could find time to calmly think about your reason and give us a detailed explanation of why have you come to this conclusion by mere line "as scum we have self-conscious." I'm sure enough It'll be not difficult for you to explain why you dislike this line
First, you had considered this 'scum slip' with no doubt remaining in your mind since you did cast a vote on me with the no logical, sensible argument but merely due to this line, it's like you were thinking "Well, why not? I just wanna vote someone" To be honest, your reason was hardly interesting or engageable, it's like you just spit out whatever you wanted to say. Leaving the details aside, I think perhaps you himself don't really consider this an issue or else you would have pushed my so-called 'scum slip'
You seemed to be the sort that likes to utter meaningless stuff, though I don't particularly dislike players with such interests. On the other hand, I do dislike what you said here, this post is entirely a waste of effort for you to get anything. Toujo maybe a pro with towering experience, but it's hardly enough reason to consider him to be the type to lead either the lynch or game thread, each player here is to handle their own weight, no one here to lead someone but more like here to convince others, etc etc
@AL_sama do you remember when i was mislynched in day one and scum won because townies were the ones who lynched me and during the game town just kill themselves? If you are villager, and this is the second time i am asking you, step up yourself and play seriously.
I dislike i was sheeped in my vote for you by Bee who vanished and by Luke who after i town lean him dissapeard from the thread. I don't say this makes them bad, but anyway that makes them lazy :/
Why X and Aether? Well, because out of the players in the game they're the two I know best (because I've played with them recently). Hence why it's important for me to try and see other perspectives. Beyond that, not much reason.
My Town read on X I feel is fairly established as to why it's there. To summarise, I have something of a tell in regards to him, and he is not meeting that currently, which indicates town. It's a very slight thing, so when I say town read, it's not like I'm going to defend him or anything. Though I doubt he needs me to do so anyway.
Aether, it is somewhat curious how he would approach this game differently. I kind of liked him giving it up actually, I feel like as scum he'd probably force it just because he didn't want to be seen backing away from it. Aside from that though, nothing much. It's hard to read Aether. It's why the people scumreading him now are *correct* in some ways, but in his case... well, put it this way. It's a textbook example of a false positive. I don't have an answer for how to clear Aether.
Do you have any read that you would defend today?
If not, who is in your lynch pool, who is in never day 1 lynch and who is in you don't care if they get lynched pile?
Do you usually play with your cards close to your chest?
You seemed to be the sort that likes to utter meaningless stuff, though I don't particularly dislike players with such interests. On the other hand, I do dislike what you said here, this post is entirely a waste of effort for you to get anything. Toujo maybe a pro with towering experience, but it's hardly enough reason to consider him to be the type to lead either the lynch or game thread, each player here is to handle their own weight, no one here to lead someone but more like here to convince others, etc etc
@AL_sama do you remember when i was mislynched in day one and scum won because townies were the ones who lynched me and during the game town just kill themselves? If you are villager, and this is the second time i am asking you, step up yourself and play seriously.
