[VS] Shikamaru VS Zabuza

[Ves]

[table="width: 550, align: center"][tr][td]Location: Forest
Distance: 30m
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[KidGamer65]

Hidden Mist + Silent Killing and it's over. Shadow Possession is useless when he can't see his target's location to land it.

 

[Nattana]

Zabuza stomps. Wtf is this thread.

 

[Ves]

Hidden Mist + Silent Killing and it's over. Shadow Possession is useless when he can't see his target's location to land it.

Spoiler

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The Nara Clan are able to sense those in contact with their Shadow Possession Jutsu (without the action of binding).

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Though it hadn't been used as a sensory perceptive being as a Yamanaka clansmen remained present, Kakashi's strategy explicitly explained to the reader that the Nara Clan can in fact sense, and keep track of individuals who make contact with their shadow.

Kakashi's plan:

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-

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Take note, that this was all performed in a

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scenario — There'd been no logical method to keep track of Kakashi if the Nara couldn't sense Kakashi. I envision this is the imagery the Nara Clan perceive while others are within their shadow(s).

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[table="width: 550, align: center"][tr][td]Zabuza puts up the Hidden Mist.

Shikamaru does this.

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While in contact with a Nara's shadow they're able to sense/track their opponents.

What is the outcome?[/td][/tr][/table]

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[KidGamer65]

Spoiler

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The Nara Clan are able to sense those in contact with their Shadow Possession Jutsu (without the action of binding).

Spoiler

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Though it hadn't been used as a sensory perceptive being as a Yamanaka clansmen remained present, Kakashi's strategy explicitly explained to the reader that the Nara Clan can in fact sense, and keep track of individuals who make contact with their shadow.

Kakashi's plan:

You must be registered for see links

-

You must be registered for see links

Take note, that this was all performed in a

You must be registered for see links

scenario — There'd been no logical method to keep track of Kakashi if the Nara couldn't sense Kakashi. I envision this is the imagery the Nara Clan perceive while others are within their shadow(s).

You must be registered for see images

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[table="width: 550, align: center"][tr][td]Zabuza puts up the Hidden Mist.

Shikamaru does this.

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While in contact with a Nara's shadow they're able to sense/track their opponents.

What is the outcome?[/td][/tr][/table]

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That isn't Shikamaru. That's Shikadai and there is no evidence that Shikamaru can replicate that kind Shadow Formation.

 

[Ves]

That isn't Shikamaru. That's Shikadai and there is no evidence that Shikamaru can replicate that kind Shadow Formation.

[table="width: 550, align: center"][tr][td]Shikadai's picture is merely a reference to the Nara's shape manipulation. Nothing more.

Yes, Shikamaru can "replicate" that kind of shadow formation. He's done far superior shape manipulation anyhow in the war arc.

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[KidGamer65]

[table="width: 550, align: center"][tr][td]Shikadai's picture is merely a reference to the Nara's shape manipulation. Nothing more.

Yes, Shikamaru can "replicate" that kind of shadow formation. He's done far superior shape manipulation anyhow in the war arc.

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No he hasn't. In terms of size he's never shown anything on that level nor is there any direct comparison that proves Shikamaru is more proficient with the tech than Shikadai is. If you are saying he simply makes a circle the largest he possibly can then this still doesn't work as Zabuza has Suiton for long range and has Shuriken/Kunai which Kakashi was pressed to block while in the mist let alone Shikamaru.

 

[Ves]

No he hasn't. In terms of size he's never shown anything on that level nor is there any direct comparison that proves Shikamaru is more proficient with the tech than Shikadai is. If you are saying he simply makes a circle the largest he possibly can then this still doesn't work as Zabuza has Suiton for long range and has Shuriken/Kunai which Kakashi was pressed to block while in the mist let alone Shikamaru.

[table="width: 550, align: center"][tr][td]Yes, he has. Taking control over someone's shadow, takes greater effort than simply minimizing or maximizing his own.

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Choji's shadow while expanded is far superior in size to Shikadai's, which he goes on to expand further offpanel, with Shikamaru's affirmation: "No prob, you're still light."

I'm unsure why you're arguing against Shikamaru being capable of even manipulating his shadow in such a way, as if he even needs to expand his shadow that far, because I'm sure you're aware that both individuals are blind inside of the mist. Zabuza merely has the presumed advantage due to I believe it was his hearing? Shadow Possession is silent, and given Shikamaru's strategic mind, and IQ being 200+, he'd already come up with this tactic, and succeed.

Following your premise, mist + blitz. Shikamaru should come out as the victor once Zabuza blitzes.

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[FemmeFatale]

Shikamaru needs Ino to win.
Sakura used a paper bomb to dispell fog with Sasori, sure Shikamaru is smart, but I dont think he has the guts to perform a move like that, which leds me to beleive Zabuza low dif.

Though if he can somehow use Shadow stitching

 

[KidGamer65]

[table="width: 550, align: center"][tr][td]Yes, he has. Taking control over someone's shadow, takes greater effort than simply minimizing or maximizing his own.

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Choji's shadow while expanded is far superior in size to Shikadai's, which he goes on to expand further offpanel, with Shikamaru's affirmation: "No prob, you're still light."

I'm unsure why you're arguing against Shikamaru being capable of even manipulating his shadow in such a way, as if he even needs to expand his shadow that far, because I'm sure you're aware that both individuals are blind inside of the mist. Zabuza merely has the presumed advantage due to I believe it was his hearing? Shadow Possession is silent, and given Shikamaru's strategic mind, and IQ being 200+, he'd already come up with this tactic, and succeed.

Following your premise, mist + blitz. Shikamaru should come out as the victor once Zabuza blitzes.

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That doesn't even make sense. There's literally no correlation between the two. So again, there is no evidence Shikamaru can do what Shikadai did just as well as he did it. If you want to argue he can make an area large enough to actually prevent Zabuza from striking him you're gonna need the feats or the statements that prove he can do so.

And no, they obviously aren't completely blind in the mist. If Zabuza is within striking distance he'll be able to see Shikamaru and his shadow.

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Zabuza also controls the thickness at will. Shikamaru has zero chance of winning this.

 

[Ves]

That doesn't even make sense. There's literally no correlation between the two. So again, there is no evidence Shikamaru can do what Shikadai did just as well as he did it. If you want to argue he can make an area large enough to actually prevent Zabuza from striking him you're gonna need the feats or the statements that prove he can do so.

And no, they obviously aren't completely blind in the mist. If Zabuza is within striking distance he'll be able to see Shikamaru and his shadow.

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Zabuza also controls the thickness at will. Shikamaru has zero chance of winning this.

[table="width: 550, align: center"][tr][td]Of course it makes sense. Amplifying/weakening your own chakra is a much easier task than taking control over someone else's. Reason for Choji's note of concern, also reason for Shikamaru's struggle to bind Tayuya when she channeled CS2 chakra. We've been given multiple examples as is. You're literally denying what's been stated here.

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If Zabuza is in striking distance, his shadow gets merged with Shikamaru's, and it becomes a wrap.

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I'm unsure what else to make clear?
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[KidGamer65]

[table="width: 550, align: center"][tr][td]Of course it makes sense. Amplifying/weakening your own chakra is a much easier task than taking control over someone else's. Reason for Choji's note of concern, also reason for Shikamaru's struggle to bind Tayuya when she channeled CS2 chakra. We've been given multiple examples as is. You're literally denying what's been stated here.

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If Zabuza is in striking distance, his shadow gets merged with Shikamaru's, and it becomes a wrap.

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I'm unsure what else to make clear?
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There is no correlation. Talking about what requires more effort overall is irrelevant unless there is a correlation. Merging your element w/ Rasengan is harder than increasing it's size yet Boruto can do the former easily but cannot do the latter easily. No one is ignoring what is stated. He said he can make his shadow as large or small as he wants within limits. Shikadai is superior in this regard.

The rest doesn't happen unless Shikamaru catches him first, which you've failed to actually prove he can do. Using Shikadai's feats doesn't help you here. Zabuza can attack from long, mid and short range and he'll see Shikamaru's shadow and be able to avoid it. Match isn't even close to being debatable if you don't blatantly ignore parts of what I'm saying.

 

[Ves]

He said he can make his shadow as large or small as he wants within limits. Shikadai is superior in this regard.

[table="width: 550, align: center"][tr][td]Back to basics.

He said he can make his shadow as large or small as he wants within limits. Shikadai is superior in this regard.

Shikamaru doesn't require a shadow of Shikadai's proportions to catch Zabuza. Do we agree on this?

The rest doesn't happen unless Shikamaru catches him first, which you've failed to actually prove he can do. Using Shikadai's feats doesn't help you here.

I've not used Shikadai's feat once, merely for imagery purposes. Shikamaru's statement, along with his shape manipulation with the Shadow Possession Jutsu canonically tell us he can do whatever he wishes with his shadow, within reason.

The rest isn't credible based on the scenario you gave from the start. The two are inside of the mist — Shikamaru has manipulated his shadow around himself in order to sense/track Zabuza — Zabuza blitzes as you said, and his shadow makes contact — Shikamaru ends.
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[KidGamer65]

[table="width: 550, align: center"][tr][td]Back to basics.


Shikamaru doesn't require a shadow of Shikadai's proportions to catch Zabuza. Do we agree on this?



I've not used Shikadai's feat once, merely for imagery purposes. Shikamaru's statement, along with his shape manipulation with the Shadow Possession Jutsu canonically tell us he can do whatever he wishes with his shadow, within reason.

The rest isn't credible based on the scenario you gave from the start. The two are inside of the mist — Shikamaru has manipulated his shadow around himself in order to sense/track Zabuza — Zabuza blitzes as you said, and his shadow makes contact — Shikamaru ends.
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Why can't you just read what's on the scan or in my post and relay it without changing it up? Shikamaru said that he can make it big or small within his limits. He didn't say he could "do whatever he wants" with it. Shikadai's feat is irrelevant to this discussion in every capacity nor have you shown that Shikamaru can actually catch Zabuza to make this debatable in the first place.

What has been shown from Shikamaru is the traditional shadow possession, not any kind of barrier type field.

My post stated that Silent Killing + Hidden Mist = Shikamaru's death. Who said that Zabuza blitzes him? Nobody. :lol Again, stop adding your own context to other people's statements.

 

[Antdog]

Zabuza puts up the mist and cuts Shika down

 

[Ves]

Why can't you just read what's on the scan or in my post and relay it without changing it up? Shikamaru said that he can make it big or small within his limits. He didn't say he could "do whatever he wants" with it. Shikadai's feat is irrelevant to this discussion in every capacity nor have you shown that Shikamaru can actually catch Zabuza to make this debatable in the first place.

What has been shown from Shikamaru is the traditional shadow possession, not any kind of barrier type field.

[table="width: 550, align: center"][tr][td]I honestly don't understand how I'm supposed to convince you that you're wrong, in regards to Shikamaru being unable to manipulate his shadow however he chooses when he explicitly stated such.

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Databook 2 - Kage Kubi Shibari no Jutsu Hide

Spoiler

NINJUTSU; Hiden; Kage Kubi Shibari no jutsu (Arcane: Shadow Neck-Binding technique)
Users: Nara Shikamaru; Nara Shikaku
Offensive; Close, Medium ranges; Rank: none

Main text

A more battle-oriented jutsu developed from House Nara's arcane, Kage Mane**. The shadow is endowed with physical strength, and by transforming it and setting it in motion, one can deal direct damage to the enemy. The most efficient way to do so is strangulation, hence the name.

Caption

-Strange shadows shaped after hands. They bind themselves around the neck and steal life away!!

Picture comment

-The shorter the distance towards the target, the stronger the shadow gets.

Konoha Hundred Leaves Collection

Main text

The basic application of House Nara's hijutsu (arcane art) is capture and restraint of the enemy, but it will prove efficient in many ways depending on how it is employed. The size of the area covered by the shadows cannot be changed. In regards with that limitation, this is by far the best jutsu in the set as far as successful use of said shadows' particularities is concerned.

Transformation
The shadow can be transformed. Utilizing that particularity, the caster can turn their shadow into a string-like shape, thus expanding its hitting range. It can also be ramified to attack multiple enemies.

Enlargement
If the sources of light themselves can be controlled, it's also possible to alter the surface covered by the shadow. A good grasp of the sun's location or even an artificial source of light will prove instrumental.

Captions

-A battle between "potentiality" and "limitations".

-A large variety of shadow arts!

Picture comments

-With Kage Kubi Shibari, the shadows can be stretched thin enough to attack even [bodily] sections such as a finger.

-Employ of a "hikaridama" (light ball), a ninja tool, enables dramatic alterations of the shadows, albeit temporarily.

The key context:

Transformation
The shadow can be transformed. Utilizing that particularity, the caster can turn their shadow into a string-like shape, thus expanding its hitting range. It can also be ramified to attack multiple enemies.

Enlargement
If the sources of light themselves can be controlled, it's also possible to alter the surface covered by the shadow. A good grasp of the sun's location or even an artificial source of light will prove instrumental.

What's being said here, and what I'm saying is that Shikadai's Shadow Possession isn't any different than what Shikamaru, or Shikaku can do, it's merely an enlargement in his shadow, something every Nara has shown to do, and what the DB, and manga have canonically stated they can manipulate in whichever form they wish as long as it stays within their limitations.

The Shadow Possession Jutsu's limitation is noted in the Chunin Exams, and in the same explanation it's both shown, and stated the Nara are able to freely manipulate their shadow.

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Spoiler

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The limit is their natural surface area — As long as Shikamaru stays within that limitation, a shadow circle can be manipulated around himself in the same manner as Shikadai. Then, once Zabuza attempts to silent kill (which he will), he'll be caught, and defeated.

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[Mellanoma]

Hidden Mist + Silent Killing and it's over. Shadow Possession is useless when he can't see his target's location to land it.

Zabuza stomps. Wtf is this thread.

My answer depends on the mechanics of shadow possession.

If Shikamaru uses a bind around himself and await's zabuza's attack.

1) WIll Zabuza entering the shadow auto bind him or does Shikamaru have to activate it.

2) Does Shikamaru have the Shadow binding Asuma blades



In this situation I can see Zabuza's very own technique being used to counter him as Zabuza MUST attack Shikamaru directly leading him into his shadow.

Thoughts?

 

[Ves]

My answer depends on the mechanics of shadow possession.

If Shikamaru uses a bind around himself and await's zabuza's attack.

1) WIll Zabuza entering the shadow auto bind him or does Shikamaru have to activate it.

2) Does Shikamaru have the Shadow binding Asuma blades



In this situation I can see Zabuza's very own technique being used to counter him as Zabuza MUST attack Shikamaru directly leading him into his shadow.

Thoughts?

[table="width: 550, align: center"][tr][td]Highly depends on the Shadow Possession version at use. Canonically we've seen two versions of the technique:

a. active
b.

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The difference between the two, is that one instantly traps those who make contact with the shadow, and the other allows those in contact to move freely through the cancellation of the Shadow Possession Jutsu's binding properties. Irregardless, the Nara is able to sense when something comes in contact with their shadow (as I've already shown), coupled with Shikamaru needs only to use version "a" of the Shadow Possession Jutsu, while manipulating the given shadow in a circular form/barrier as Shikadai had.

But to answer your direct question, no, Shadow Possession Jutsu doesn't require one to activate the binding process, as it's instant, unless a loose version, version "b" is applied.

To answer your other question, yes, Shikamaru has Asuma's knife, but it's of no use here, being as Shikamaru can't see Zabuza's shadow in the mist.

I wholeheartedly agree. Zabuza's mist is his greatest disadvantage in this battle, because his own efficiency will be his downfall. Zabuza's inept hearing, and his routine silent killing will be his fault here — Once Zabuza hears Shikamaru breath/make any type of audible sound it's over for the man.

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[Nattana]

My answer depends on the mechanics of shadow possession.

If Shikamaru uses a bind around himself and await's zabuza's attack.

1) WIll Zabuza entering the shadow auto bind him or does Shikamaru have to activate it.

2) Does Shikamaru have the Shadow binding Asuma blades



In this situation I can see Zabuza's very own technique being used to counter him as Zabuza MUST attack Shikamaru directly leading him into his shadow.

Thoughts?

Water Prison = gg.

Decapitation = gg.

 

[EZQ]

Even if shikamaru uses shikadai's jutsu, Zabuza wins. He approached with clones on his two canon interventions. He puts up the mist, makes water clones, sends them to approach Shikamaru, then notices the clones are binded by the shadows so procceeds to attack from long range with water bortex..