[Discussion] Sharingan does not grant strong genjutsu (well, technically)

Infant

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We have a fallacy which just so happens to be true: Sharingan grants stronger genjutsu.

No it doesn't, not automatically.

See, Sharingan allows genjutsu to be cast through the eyes and see into the mind. The strength of genjutsu arises from chakra control (and with everything being made up of smaller bits, I'd wager that controlling certain parts of the mind/senses are easier to control than others, based on the relative strength of the caster to the castee, similar to how pushing someone back may be easier than pulling them in based on the relative strength of your leg, arm and abdominal muscles). Now the basic weakness of genjutsu, as we saw with Kurenai, is the need for handseals which gives taijutsu ages to land hits. The eye casting bypasses this weakness. Another issue is chakra control on foreign ground. Seeing into the mind (and therefore strengths and weaknesses of it) helps in directing chakra and in choosing what type of illusion to cast (if Gai is in the air, he will obviously recognise a genjutsu that sinks his feet into the ground, but would be easily distracted by a bird crapping into his eye), but the actual strength of the genjutsu still comes down to the shinobi. To say the least, the mechanics of the Sharingan do not include granting outright stronger chakra control (and therfore, genjutsu). Now we also know that concentration (and therefore time) is needed to strengthen any technique, so since Sharingan vastly shortens casting process (no handseals) it allows the caster more time to concentrate on strengthening their binding, but the actual strength is not due to the Sharingan on its own.

In a way, one could say the Sharingan grants cheats for imitating/achieving stronger control. This is why Cii considered Sasuke a genius and Danzo also complimented him. The level of control he achieved was his own work/genius, not the Sharingan. To put it another way, the Sharingan allows for dealing massive damage not through superior strength, but through critical hits.

Oh, the same applies to the Byakugan.
 

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Basic
  • Baby Sharingan=not good Gen
  • Teen Sharingan=kinda good Gen
  • Adult Sharingan=good Gen+MS abilities
  • Boomer Sharingan=great Gen+EMS abilities
So Baby=1-2 tomoe, and Teen=3. Usually when first awaken Sharingan, the user doesn't really have good abilities as they've just received it. By the time that they've unlocked 3 tomoe, the user already has some mastery over it, as they've probably had it for a decent amount of time. Now adult is MS, so it comes with a whole arsenal of Sharingan moves. Also the amount of time to get MS is a pretty decent amount. So more time=more Gen mastery. Now Boomer=EMS, so by that time, they've definitely already had time for great mastery.
So in simple, more time=more Genjutsu.
 

Silenqe

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There are genjutsus that are exclusive to the Sharingan, such as Coercion Sharingan, Demonic Illusion, Genjutsu Sharingan, Izanagi, Izanami, and Shin Uchiha's Space-Time Dōjutsu.

All these genjutsus can be performed with the basic Sharingan, so it does grant strong genjutsus. Plus the MS and the EMS can potentially also grant the user some genjutsus.

Good thread tho (y)
 

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There are genjutsus that are exclusive to the Sharingan, such as Coercion Sharingan, Demonic Illusion, Genjutsu Sharingan, Izanagi, Izanami, and Shin Uchiha's Space-Time Dōjutsu.

All these genjutsus can be performed with the basic Sharingan, so it does grant strong genjutsus. Plus the MS and the EMS can potentially also grant the user some genjutsus.

Good thread tho (y)
Frayed knot

Sharingan grants view of the mind (and chakra flow.within it) which in turn allows those genjutsu to be cast (coz Sharingan user can see deeper into the mind).

Otherwise Kurenai can use demonic illusion and was noted to be able to read.minds as well as coerce during interrogation. Or something like that.

Izanami and Izanagi aremost likely just overusing the eyewhich leads.to it shutting down. Again, they need to be learned so clearly not just a byproduct of the eyes. Sorta like how wacking concrete with a sword can break the sword while allowing you to achieve something normal fists can't. . . Without exceptional training.

TY
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The MS stuff is pure ability so I concede to that
 
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Silenqe

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Frayed knot

Sharingan grants view of the mind (and chakra flow.within it) which in turn allows those genjutsu to be cast (coz Sharingan user can see deeper into the mind).

Otherwise Kurenai can use demonic illusion and was noted to be able to read.minds as well as coerce during interrogation. Or something like that.

Izanami and Izanagi aremost likely just overusing the eyewhich leads.to it shutting down. Again, they need to be learned so clearly not just a byproduct of the eyes. Sorta like how wacking concrete with a sword can break the sword while allowing you to achieve something normal fists can't. . . Without exceptional training.

TY
Genjutsus affect the targets cerebral nervous system and thereby all five senses. This is what makes a genjutsu possible. When a sharingan user makes eye contact with a person they can use genjutsus through their eyes and control the targets chakra in their cerebral nervous system.

Yes it is true that she can use this technique, but i was talking about the demonic illusion techniques that are exclusive to a sharingan user (Sorry for the misconception).

To use the Izanami and Izanagi genjutsus a sharingan user do not have to learn the genjutsus, but they do have to know the story of Izanami and Izanagi.

TY
 

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Genjutsus affect the targets cerebral nervous system and thereby all five senses. This is what makes a genjutsu possible. When a sharingan user makes eye contact with a person they can use genjutsus through their eyes and control the targets chakra in their cerebral nervous system.

Yes it is true that she can use this technique, but i was talking about the demonic illusion techniques that are exclusive to a sharingan user (Sorry for the misconception).

To use the Izanami and Izanagi genjutsus a sharingan user do not have to learn the genjutsus, but they do have to know the story of Izanami and Izanagi.

TY
Green text:
Havng a view of the mind in real time makes it easier to know what kind of illusion will bind strongest because you can see mental strengths and weaknesses.

Purple:
Evidence please.
 

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There's something I don't understand. If genjutsu is facilitated by disrupting the chakra flow, wouldn't that mean genjutsu has the same potency regardless of how it was applied? Like putting venom in someone's blood stream, will it affect how the chakra flows throughout the entire body?
 

salamander uchiha

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I dunno, it fodderised everybody it was used on. 3 Tomoe Itachi slapped Deidara and almost made him blow himself up, it made Naruto cry like a girl and made Orocimaru into a second rate ninja. I would say it's pretty overpowered in general.
 

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Havng a view of the mind in real time makes it easier to know what kind of illusion will bind strongest because you can see mental strengths and weaknesses.

Evidence please.
Genjutsus affect a part of the brain, not the mind. I might not understand what you are trying to say, so I hope it is not a big hassle to explain what you are trying to say in more detail, please?

I believe Itachi said this when putting kabuto in the genjutsus, but I might be wrong about that (I am deeply sorry if I am wrong about it). Although this doesn't really matter if you think about it, it is still genjutsus that are exclusive to the sharingan which was my original argument in the first place.
 

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Genjutsus affect a part of the brain, not the mind. I might not understand what you are trying to say, so I hope it is not a big hassle to explain what you are trying to say in more detail, please?

I believe Itachi said this when putting kabuto in the genjutsus, but I might be wrong about that (I am deeply sorry if I am wrong about it). Although this doesn't really matter if you think about it, it is still genjutsus that are exclusive to the sharingan which was my original argument in the first place.
Gree
MS Obito used sharingan to view mind of Konan and find Nagato, so it also views the mind. I take it mind = spiritual part (thoughts, memories etc) and brain = physical part (oblangata etc).

Basically, being able to see mind (thoughts etc) allows understanding of mental weaknesses, so its easier to know which illusion will have stronger impact. In this way Sharingan is like a sword which makes it easier to cut, but the actual cutting still comes to the wielder. Except for MS, basic Sharingan is purely a tool.

Purp
Character credibility says Itachi was wrong.
Simply put: the first guy to use such genjutsu couldn't have known its story, the guys who spammed them couldn't all have known . . .
Sharingan is like sword. It is difficult to cut deep without sword, but a guy could chissel his arm bones sharp and do the same. He'd have to be crazy (extremely talented), but technically it could be done.
Reason is from why Sharingan allows for such technique: view into mind. By turning it onto oneself, the sharingan is stressed to breaking point. Remember how Kakashi needed KN chakra to use Distanced Kamui on himself? Similar principle. Remember genjutsu is Yin Release, willpower. By using too much of it, the eye is weakened (hence MS drawbacks because too much power is released through the eye) just like a sword goes blunt after many strikes. Iza duo use so much willpower through the eye it completely destroy the eye, just like a sword strike on tough material, with too much strength, would shatter the blade

Else:
No worries, wouldn't be need for discussion if everyone was correct 100% of the time. So discussion is good because we share ideas and learn from each other.
 

Silenqe

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Gree
MS Obito used sharingan to view mind of Konan and find Nagato, so it also views the mind. I take it mind = spiritual part (thoughts, memories etc) and brain = physical part (oblangata etc).

Basically, being able to see mind (thoughts etc) allows understanding of mental weaknesses, so its easier to know which illusion will have stronger impact. In this way Sharingan is like a sword which makes it easier to cut, but the actual cutting still comes to the wielder. Except for MS, basic Sharingan is purely a tool.

Purp
Character credibility says Itachi was wrong.
Simply put: the first guy to use such genjutsu couldn't have known its story, the guys who spammed them couldn't all have known . . .
Sharingan is like sword. It is difficult to cut deep without sword, but a guy could chissel his arm bones sharp and do the same. He'd have to be crazy (extremely talented), but technically it could be done.
Reason is from why Sharingan allows for such technique: view into mind. By turning it onto oneself, the sharingan is stressed to breaking point. Remember how Kakashi needed KN chakra to use Distanced Kamui on himself? Similar principle. Remember genjutsu is Yin Release, willpower. By using too much of it, the eye is weakened (hence MS drawbacks because too much power is released through the eye) just like a sword goes blunt after many strikes. Iza duo use so much willpower through the eye it completely destroy the eye, just like a sword strike on tough material, with too much strength, would shatter the blade

Else:
No worries, wouldn't be need for discussion if everyone was correct 100% of the time. So discussion is good because we share ideas and learn from each other.
Sorry, I didn't respond for a while, but I had an accident and the doctor told me I couldn't use my computer for a while. I guess I agree with what you said. Hopefully, we can discuss some theories and stuff like that in the future. (y):giggle:
 

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Hmm, so you're implying that the castor's skills >>> Sharingan, at the end of the day?
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Sorry, I didn't respond for a while, but I had an accident and the doctor told me I couldn't use my computer for a while. I guess I agree with what you said. Hopefully, we can discuss some theories and stuff like that in the future. (y):giggle:
Dang, get well soon bro.

I certainly enjoy such discussion, especially when most matchups are either done and dusted, or require these matters to be sorted before they can be properly explored.
 

Silenqe

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Dang, get well soon bro.

I certainly enjoy such discussion, especially when most matchups are either done and dusted, or require these matters to be sorted before they can be properly explored.
Thank you, hope you the best too and I agree one hundred percent (y)
 
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