Seriously...Madara Breaking Edo and now Oro revived?

[Floydical]

First off, this is a great thread Boshans. I too am flabbergasted to say the least in regard to the last few chapters. But let me give my take on some of the issues going around in this topic that have not been said yet:

First, people seem to be forgetting that there are confirmed stages of Edo tensei. Let me explain how Tobirama was not able to release himself as you believe he could have. The stages are as follows:

1. The Storage State- Where the edo is basically asleep and held for summoning. In this stage, they are very decayed and somewhat unrecognizable, but are not conscious. We all know what this looks like.

2. The Initial Summoned State- Where the body has been activated and can be made mobile. In this state, they can still be decayed but have their consciousness and can speak, but their own actions are basically limited to head movement. All other movement is the caster's work.

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But while in this state, a talisman can be added to them that restores vitality to the target and allows for an override command to be given. But until this command is given, the edo still has their consciousness, can still be controlled manually but if no other order is given, their body automatically responds to enemy attacks.

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3. Killing Machine State- This state begins after the override command is given. Once in this state, the Edo requires no controlling, has no consciousness and will essentially use any and all techniques required to kill those in their way.

Now the point I'm making with all this is that Tobirama and Hashirama were in the pre-override state where they had no control of themselves. They may have been able to talk and swivel their heads, but they couldn't make a hand signs let alone move on their own. So you should not think Tobirama could have released himself. The only time one could do that would be after the technique is released and before their soul dissipates. That is exactly when Madara did what he did.

Now as for Madara knowing about Edo Tensei and knowing the secret seals, well we have to assume he saw it before and either saw it be released or successfully pulled that information from said caster. Now it is possible for him to have somehow gathered this from Tobirama, especially if he had Zetsu scouting after his fight with Hashi and before Tobirama died. Another possibility is that Oro worked with Madara, like he did with Tobi (confirmed last chapter) and actually taught Madara (but not Tobi) how to release said Jutsu. Both are long shots, but a lot of things that have happened in the manga could be considered longshots.

Weren't there other ET's that could talk freely & carry on with their personality but Kabuto still had them under control? Where as Oro let the 1st & 2nd talk freely before placing the tailsman which wiped their personality & perhaps their consciousness?

Kabuto didn't have any control over Madara because he believed what Madara could do personally was best rather than making moves for him. So that there is a big difference.

Yes Kabuto did allow him to move freely but he was still under Kabuto's overall control. At any moment Kabuto could taken back control and Madara did not want to break out of Edo at that time because he was being informed of the status of his plans and didn't mind showing off his power.

 

[jiraiya lives]

at first i liked madara but now hes pulling jutsu from his ass whats next him using rasengan wait he wasnt alive during the time of the 4th but from where its going now who knows what hell do next
as for oro you got to love him hes the naruto Michael Jackson dudes amazing

 

[boshans]

First off, this is a great thread Boshans. I too am flabbergasted to say the least in regard to the last few chapters. But let me give my take on some of the issues going around in this topic that have not been said yet:

First, people seem to be forgetting that there are confirmed stages of Edo tensei. Let me explain how Tobirama was not able to release himself as you believe he could have. The stages are as follows:

1. The Storage State- Where the edo is basically asleep and held for summoning. In this stage, they are very decayed and somewhat unrecognizable, but are not conscious. We all know what this looks like.

2. The Initial Summoned State- Where the body has been activated and can be made mobile. In this state, they can still be decayed but have their consciousness and can speak, but their own actions are basically limited to head movement. All other movement is the caster's work.

You must be registered for see images

You must be registered for see images

But while in this state, a talisman can be added to them that restores vitality to the target and allows for an override command to be given. But until this command is given, the edo still has their consciousness, can still be controlled manually but if no other order is given, their body automatically responds to enemy attacks.

You must be registered for see images

3. Killing Machine State- This state begins after the override command is given. Once in this state, the Edo requires no controlling, has no consciousness and will essentially use any and all techniques required to kill those in their way.

Now the point I'm making with all this is that Tobirama and Hashirama were in the pre-override state where they had no control of themselves. They may have been able to talk and swivel their heads, but they couldn't make a hand signs let alone move on their own. So you should not think Tobirama could have released himself. The only time one could do that would be after the technique is released and before their soul dissipates. That is exactly when Madara did what he did.

Now as for Madara knowing about Edo Tensei and knowing the secret seals, well we have to assume he saw it before and either saw it be released or successfully pulled that information from said caster. Now it is possible for him to have somehow gathered this from Tobirama, especially if he had Zetsu scouting after his fight with Hashi and before Tobirama died. Another possibility is that Oro worked with Madara, like he did with Tobi (confirmed last chapter) and actually taught Madara (but not Tobi) how to release said Jutsu. Both are long shots, but a lot of things that have happened in the manga could be considered longshots.



Yes Kabuto did allow him to move freely but he was still under Kabuto's overall control. At any moment Kabuto could taken back control and Madara did not want to break out of Edo at that time because he was being informed of the status of his plans and didn't mind showing off his power.

I agree basically, good post, and thanks btw. I don't know though, I still think that Tobirama/Hashirama had limited control of their body. They obviously could move their heads, since they looked backed at Orochimaru. I would imagine they would be able to move their hands as well. The state they were in is the same state that Muu and the Raikage/Kaze/Mizukage were in while they were walking towards Gaara's regiment. They could control their bodies, but could not attack each other. To me, I think this would be enough to let Hashirama, the only person on par with Madara, or Tobirama even, to form some quick hand signs. Remember also that Orochimaru's Edo Tensei is not as perfect as Kabuto's. So there could be a possibility that they could have done that.

I still think it's a bunch of crap that Madara knew the secret hand signs though. I highly doubt Tobirama ever showed anybody those secret signs, why would he? I doubt he would want an immortal Edo running around. We don't even know if Zetsu was around back then either, so that might not work either. I don't know. I somehow doubt that an Edo from Tobirama's time somehow pulled off breaking free from Tobirama's control with those hand signs. Even if that did happen, how would THAT person know how to?

I just find it hard to believe that Tobirama would tell anybody about those signs, especially since he knows the dangers of someone using it to break free. We don't really know if he ever even used Edo back in the day anyway. It just seems weird that a Hokage would use a living sacrifice to cast Edo. I mean he still could have created Edo, you know like created the procedure and everything that Kabuto showed Tobi on how to cast it, but never actually used it.

Who knows. Like you said, a lot of things are longshots now it seems, so we can't expect anything to be to crazy to happen in the manga now. Hell I wouldn't be surprised if Hashirama came back somehow to battle Madara, even though that should be technically impossible. Kishi will come up with some bs way though I'm sure.

 

[Zato]

Obviously there were scrolls on how to perform Edo Tensei. Kabuto shown the scrolls to Tobi. So if Oro and Kabuto knew the hand seals then you really think Madara wouldn't? Madara was a Co Founder of Konoha so I am very sure he had power in the Leaf and he was trusted to an extent. So he obviously knew were the scrolls were hidden and read them OR he probably seen Tobirama perform Edo Tensei and just copied his hand seals with his sharigan seeing as the sharigan allows them to memorize hand seals anyway. Edo Tensei was being used during Madara's time. I remember Chiyo saying that the Edo Tensei has been further progressed since the 2nd Hokage used it which means that the 2nd Hokage was pretty much using that ability to win battles. Its the same reason why Madara knows all of Hashirama hand seals for his Mokuton.

 

[Gooner4life]

Obviously there were scrolls on how to perform Edo Tensei. Kabuto shown the scrolls to Tobi. So if Oro and Kabuto knew the hand seals then you really think Madara wouldn't? Madara was a Co Founder of Konoha so I am very sure he had power in the Leaf and he was trusted to an extent. So he obviously knew were the scrolls were hidden and read them OR he probably seen Tobirama perform Edo Tensei and just copied his hand seals with his sharigan seeing as the sharigan allows them to memorize hand seals anyway. Edo Tensei was being used during Madara's time. I remember Chiyo saying that the Edo Tensei has been further progressed since the 2nd Hokage used it which means that the 2nd Hokage was pretty much using that ability to win battles. Its the same reason why Madara knows all of Hashirama hand seals for his Mokuton.

Knowing the hand seals isn't the problem, that is perfectly plausible. Knowing that that was the risk of the technique and that when you are an edo even when Kabuto didn't know is the problem. Future events have suggested that the Senju didn't truly trust the Uchiha and they are ninjas, they wont suddenly trust their biggest rivals and Madara doesn't seem to be the type to do years of research on a forbidden technique and even then that doesn't guarantee knowing the weakness as proved by Kabuto.

 

[kibaclaw]

Quit crying and read another manga if u don't like it boshans u homo. And take your emo profile pics with you, just like suigetsu said about orochimaru - nobody wants to see your ugly face.

 

[kellzfresh]

Boshans, u forgot that probably tobirama did not know that the summoned edo can break the contract by doing the seals. Even kabuto and oro did not know and they surpassed the 2nd hokage. But they did not know that someone that knows the seals can release it. :shrug:

It was always expected that oro will come back. If his skin was still taking over kabuto's body till the point that his voice became like orochimaru, then I knew oro will come back. But I thot he will take over kabuto though. Anyways I rather see orochimaru back as the bad guy than kabuto :

 

[Armathyx]

Tobirama is not the 2nd strongest Hokage, but besides that it's true some things like this irritate me about Naruto.

Too much plot-no-jutsu, nobody important dies.

They make fun of Dragonball because people got resurrected, but at least they actually died in DBZ.

 

[edo tensai wilmaso]

I'm just glad oro is back. The OP acts as if oro brought himself back , Sasuke needed some of kabutos DNA which really is not his it's oro , kabuto injected himself with oro DNA to the point where kabuto said its gonna take over his body so essentially his DNA is there and his soul , it does not matter how much , as you see naruto only has half the foxes chakra imagine if he had the whole.

Maybe just maybe think it about it like this kabuto Edo tensei let's his pawns have control , oro's did not. So even if they knew the hand seals they were not able to do it cuz they had no control. Also there's a reason why kabuto wants madara running around, we just have to wait and see.

 

[Jiman]

If Kabuto didnt go through such lengths just to get Oro's powers, Oro would not of been able to come back. Kabuto basically stole Oro's very being and attempted to make it his own. Now it was returned.

Madara only needed to know the seals of the justu to break free of it, and he could of learned this any number of ways. The fact he was free to do what ever the hell he wanted was the issue here. When Kabuto was put into the justu all control he had over Madara was taken away if he had any at all, so he could of released himself from it at any time he wanted.

 

[HamzaVeli]

U make a valuable point on nidaime not breakin out of edo - yet oro bein able to - - -

 

[Zato]

Knowing the hand seals isn't the problem, that is perfectly plausible. Knowing that that was the risk of the technique and that when you are an edo even when Kabuto didn't know is the problem. Future events have suggested that the Senju didn't truly trust the Uchiha and they are ninjas, they wont suddenly trust their biggest rivals and Madara doesn't seem to be the type to do years of research on a forbidden technique and even then that doesn't guarantee knowing the weakness as proved by Kabuto.

Kabuto indeed suspected that Madara could break Edo Tensei. He told Itachi that if he did stop the Edo Tensei then he probably couldn't stop certain things from happening that could have been prevented. Then it shows Madara right after he stated that. What Kabuto was basically saying is if he removed Kabuto's contract over Madara then Madara might be able to make his own contract. Because remember, Kabuto never put Madara under his control.

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Read what Kabuto says to Itachi. He basically suspects what would happen if the Edo Tensei was released.

 

[Souji]

I will agree that the Madara cancelling his edo seal was something that is completely half-baked, and the manga will need to do some major explanation to save itself from collapsing under Madara's ridiculous OPness.

As for the Oro reviving himself, I think it's a more plausible situation if we assume that souls in Naruto function the same as DNA.

Quick bio refresher: All our body's cells have our entire genome. Each cell activates certain genes to fit its functions.

If we are to assume that a soul works in the same way in Naruto, then each part (piece) of a character's soul contains every single part of their being. Meaning that Oro's "soul arms" sealed by the 3rd had every other part of his soul within it.

Remember that the curse mark doesn't just mix Oro's soul with his host, but also his DNA. This, combined with the idea I stated earlier, is a good justification in how Oro managed to revive himself in full form. His DNA just reactivated all his genes to reconstruct his body.

So basically, Oro is Voldemort, and as of now, the only character to find a way around being sealed.

It's a farfetched theory, I know, but hopefully future chapters will explain how he managed to do this.