Sasuke's Ninjutsu Potential

[Waltz]

Every thing is good except for this.

You are so close to being right.

All you have to do is provide WHY a rinnegan user can do what Kakashi(the man with sharingan and all 5 nature release) can not.

Because the Sharingan isn't the Rin'negan. ​

 

[ComplexCity]

Am I seeing that KKG can be copied or am I misreading? :|

 

[Worm]

Sasuke can use Jinton? If he saw it.

Hebi Sasuke could use Zukoku and Gian if he fought Kakuzu.

 

[solorflare99]

Because the Sharingan isn't the Rin'negan. ​

and where is the proof that Rinnegan allows the to use KKG. It has yet to be presented.

 

[Waltz]

and where is the proof that Rinnegan allows the to use KKG. It has yet to be presented.

Madara states that after he implanted Hashirama's genetic material that nothing occurred. He was on the verge of death and Rin'negan surfaced and with it he summoned the Gedo Mazou and used the Natural energy it gathered to cultivate Mokuton which in turn was used to sustain his life. Madara's first usage of Mokuton only came after he acquired the Rin'negan which would have been 60-70+ years after he implanted Hashirama's Genetic Material. ​

 

[Varrah]

Using misinterpreted info is a fallacy.

That fallacy applies to argument that actually misinterpret information and one using a false proposition, which it has yet to be; thus your application of this fallacy to my argument is improperly place and it is especially so since I am not denying the antecedent.​

Saying that EMS has better sight doesn't prove anything. All we can do is assume that it can improve it to a point where he can copy KKG and that Kakashi's MS and under cannot. Unless you're trying to make a theory or fanfic, you aren't making any progress.

The Eternal Mangekyō Sharingan increases the insightfulness of the Sharingan, one of the staples of the Sharingan, the other being hypnosis. The issue here is my proposition that: "there is a difference between what the Sharingan copies(which is everything it is capable of reading, including Kekkei Genkai), and what those who wield those eyes are able to reproduce.

No limits have been placed on the former, but there are obviously some present for the latter." [

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] (obviously aware of the no-limit fallacy.)


Kakashi being unable to copy Haku's jutsu is not the end be all that applies to everyone using the Sharingan, much like how Kakashi's Sharingan being unable to see the chakra circulatory system to the degree that the Byakuguan can applies to every and all Sharingan users. The point I am trying to make is that Kakashi claims his Sharingan could not copy Haku's jutsu, I understand this but I am wondering exactly how and why Kakashi's sentiments apply to every other Sharingan user especially when these other Sharingan users, specifically Madara and Sasuke, have a higher quality or degree of chakra that it turns amps the abilities of their Sharingan? This is also not counting that our most detailed account of the Sharingan comes from the very first databook. In most cases, the manga generally supersedes the databook and I have no issues with that, the only issue I have—which is begging to confuse me—is what do we do if the manga has information that supports the databook? Let alone the very first one?


I gladly welcome any and all ideas—I'm legitimately confused brehs.

I'm going to post the databook and a link to its picture again.

Spoiler

Sharingan 写輪眼
-----------------

This is konoha's finest clan, Uchiha Clan's bloodline limit. Within the clan, there is only a portion of the members, possess this special ability. The tomoe seal within the pupil is the special markings of the Sharingan. Sharingan is an observation eye, which is capable of exposing everything, an illusion eye capable of casting illusions and also an eye of jutsu copying capabilities. Just like in the battle between Kakashi and Zabuza, where it seems like it can predict the future, and using different combat methods, allowing the user to have unlimited defensive and offensive strategies.

Sharingan's observation eye, is one of the finest in doujutsu. Within split seconds, this observation eye is capable of exposing to the user all systems of Ninjutsu, Taijutsu and Genjutsu, also the movement and attacking path of the opponent, or the opponent's defences against fatal moves, evading movements from the user's attack, etc... These will enhance the overall combat abilities of the user in different situations. This petrifying ability is worthy of the title, "Heaven's Eye".

Plus the ability of copying, Sharingan, can wield its true capabilities... that is to copy and possess jutsus seen only once by the user. Regardless of whether its chakra molding or seals forming, all the under lying physics of the jutsu will be copied and remembered by the user in an instant. In order to weild the jutsu, the user must have sufficient chakra and also an able body that can withstand the demands of the jutsu. However, an Uchiha will not allow himself to be restricted by these conditions. This is because they will utilised their accumulated combat experience, and also bring out their potential when the need arises. The more critical the situation is, the more they are able to harness their potential to the maximum.

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.

​

Only read this portion once you have read the databook entry of the Sharingan. The databook states that the Sharingan can copy any jutsu regardless of the jutsu chakra molding or the seals forming said jutsu, all under lying physics of the jutsu will be copied and remembered by the user in an instant. In order to wield the jutsu, the user must have sufficient chakra and also an able body that can withstand the demands of the jutsu. However, an Uchiha will not allow himself to be restricted by these conditions. This is because they will utilised their accumulated combat experience, and also bring out their potential when the need arises. The more critical the situation is, the more they are able to harness their potential to the maximum.

Unless, anyone has information that directly contradicts the copying mechanism of the Sharingan why is it being assume Kakashi's antics apply to everyone with a Sharingan? Furthermore, recall Sasuke's very first fight in the preliminary matches of the Chuunin exams. ​

*Keep in mind that we didn't even know about the Gates at this point.

The Cursed Seal reacted to any chakra Sasuke used back then. If it was nothing more than regular ol' Taijutsu, the Cursed Seal wouldn't have had such a violent reaction. Up to that point, it just caused him a bit of pain, didn't even unravel. Yet for this Taijutsu, it quickly unravels, and even causes him to cough up

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.

Gai considers the Taijutsu Sasuke copied from Lee, the Kage Buyou, part of the Omote Renge. And he called what Sasuke did, perfectly reproducing even part of that Taijutsu combination--which would normally require years of difficult training--an impossible feat even with the

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.

The Initial Gate's release of chakra would explain the Cursed Seal's violent reaction, the pain Sasuke experienced afterwards, and why he considered the technique unreliable. It would also explain why the spectators, Gai in particular, would make such a huge deal out of what Sasuke managed to accomplish there.

Basically Sasuke copied the Kage Buyou from Rock Lee when he first met him, they fought remember, and used it against Orochimaru's lackey in the first match of the preliminary matches of the Chuunin Exams.​

​

Anyways the point is while the manga generally supersedes the databook, some of the information within the databook crucial information that the manga does not expand it, like the copying mechanism of the Sharingan. The main pieces of information we get about this function is largely from Kakashi from his perspective and it is being apply to everyone with the Sharingan; however the databook does this too like its description of Susanoo needing both Amaterasu and Tsukuyomi, a feature we know to be untrue. I'm of the opinion that they both need to be used but in equal measures which is why I am hesitant to take up the positions of that many others have. I'm requesting information from you to him me solve this problem. If it turns out one thing is the other I'll drop my position, no problem; but if it's the other way.

Anyways I'm selling Bloodborne.​

 

[Zexion~]

Hebi Sasuke could use Zukoku and Gian if he fought Kakuzu.

Nah mang

 

[solorflare99]

Madara states that after he implanted Hashirama's genetic material that nothing occurred. He was on the verge of death and Rin'negan surfaced and with it he summoned the Gedo Mazou and used the Natural energy it gathered to cultivate Mokuton which in turn was used to sustain his life. Madara's first usage of Mokuton only came after he acquired the Rin'negan which would have been 60-70+ years after he implanted Hashirama's Genetic Material. ​

See that isn't proof. You are only interpreting it in that manner.

"Madara states that after he implanted Hashirama's genetic material that nothing occurred."
You are assuming that he wasn't talking about Rinnegan spefically. You are assuming that it was his first time using Mokuton. Third and most importantly you are assuming that he used Mokuton because of the Rinnegan, when no such thing is stated. Is this the only proof you have. It's all based off assumption.

That fallacy only applies to argument that actually misinterpret information: furthermore, this proposition only applies once the proposition is proven to be false which it has yet to be; thus your application of this fallacy to my argument is improperly place and it is especially so since I am not denying the antecedent.​

The Eternal Mangekyō Sharingan increases the insightfulness of the Sharingan, one of the staples of the Sharingan, the other being hypnosis. The issue here is my proposition that: "there is a difference between what the Sharingan copies(which is everything it is capable of reading, including Kekkei Genkai), and what those who wield those eyes are able to reproduce.

No limits have been placed on the former, but there are obviously some present for the latter." [

You must be registered for see links

] (obviously aware of the no-limit fallacy.)


Kakashi being unable to copy Haku's jutsu is not the end be all that applies to everyone using the Sharingan, much like how Kakashi's Sharingan being unable to see the chakra circulatory system to the degree that the Byakuguan can applies to every and all Sharingan users. The point I am trying to make is that Kakashi claims his Sharingan could not copy Haku's jutsu, I understand this but I am wondering exactly how and why Kakashi's sentiments apply to every other Sharingan user especially when these other Sharingan users, specifically Madara and Sasuke, have a higher quality or degree of chakra that it turns amps the ability of their Sharingan? This is also not counting that our most detailed account of the Sharingan comes from the very first databook. In most cases, the manga generally supersedes the databook and I have no issues with that, the only issue I have—which is begging to confuse me—is what do we do if the manga has information that supports the databook? Let alone the very first one?


I gladly welcome any and all ideas—I'm legitimately confused brehs.

I'm going to post the databook and a link to its picture again.

Spoiler

You must be registered for see links

.

​

Only read this portion once you have read the databook entry of the Sharingan. The databook states that the Sharingan can copy any jutsu regardless of the jutsu chakra molding or the seals forming said jutsu, all under lying physics of the jutsujutsu will be copied and remembered by the user in an instant. In order to weild the jutsu, the user must have sufficient chakra and also an able body that can withstand the demands of the jutsu. However, an Uchiha will not allow himself to be restricted by these conditions. This is because they will utilised their accumulated combat experience, and also bring out their potential when the need arises. The more critical the situation is, the more they are able to harness their potential to the maximum.

Unless, anyone has information that directly contradicts the copying mechanism of the Sharingan why is it being assume Kakashi's antics apply to everyone with a Sharingan? Furthermore, recall Sasuke's very first fight in the preliminary matches of the Chuunin exams. ​

*Keep in mind that we didn't even know about the Gates at this point.

The Cursed Seal reacted to any chakra Sasuke used back then. If it was nothing more than regular ol' Taijutsu, the Cursed Seal wouldn't have had such a violent reaction. Up to that point, it just caused him a bit of pain, didn't even unravel. Yet for this Taijutsu, it quickly unravels, and even causes him to cough up

You must be registered for see links

.

Gai considers the Taijutsu Sasuke copied from Lee, the Kage Buyou, part of the Omote Renge. And he called what Sasuke did, perfectly reproducing even part of that Taijutsu combination--which would normally require years of difficult training--an impossible feat even with the

You must be registered for see links

.

The Initial Gate's release of chakra would explain the Cursed Seal's violent reaction, the pain Sasuke experienced afterwards, and why he considered the technique unreliable. It would also explain why the spectators, Gai in particular, would make such a huge deal out of what Sasuke managed to accomplish there​

.​

First you can only assume that more chakra and a more advanced sharingan grants Sasuke and Madara the ability copy KKG, while Kakashi can not. None of this confirmed in the manga or Databook. Second Kakashi was known as the copy ninja he excelled in copying others, the manga supports Copying abilities being Kakashi's forte when it comes to the sharingan.

Second The sharingan user needs "an able body that can withstand the demands of the jutsu." If the body in question can't use the kekkie genkie then that is what is preventing the user. Simple really. Rinnegan in now way grants the users body. The eye itself can't produce anything. One of the main themes in Naruto is Eyes vs Body, which is why I'm confused why this discussion. Taking into consideration Kishimoto and the direction he led the manga I highly doubt he would make Rinnegan give the user the ability to copy KKg especially since the Manga in it's entirety never stated such a significant fact, nor the databooks.


Oh and the whole fallacy thing. It's a fallacy because I used misinterpreted info to make an argument and called my own self out. Because I'm petty and didn't want to great anyone else the satisfaction.

 

[Varrah]

First you can only assume that more chakra and a more advanced sharingan grants Sasuke and Madara the ability to copy KKG, while Kakashi can not.

Yeah, you misunderstood me. I basically said that the higher levels or stages of the Sharingan of the increase the two basic powers of the Sharingan, which is its insight and hypnosis. This is

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and not debatable. ​

None of this confirmed in the manga or Databook.

The databook nor manga support your misunderstanding. The manga does

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the notion that higher levels or stages increases the two basic powers of the Sharingan, which is its insight and hypnosis. Furthermore, the copying mechanism which I said does indeed extend to Kekkei Genkai using seals is confirmed in the databook and the manga.​

Second Kakashi was known as the copy ninja he excelled in copying others, the manga supports Copying abilities being Kakashi's forte when it comes to the sharingan.

How does this invalidate the fact the databook states that the Sharingan is capable of copying all movements, even those involving a jutsu? The manga supports this as well during Hashirama's use of the

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and Sasuke's

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of Rock Lee's Kage Buyou. ​

Second The sharingan user needs "an able body that can withstand the demands of the jutsu." If the body in question can't use the kekkie genkie then that is what is preventing the user. Simple really. Rinnegan in now way grants the users body. The eye itself can't produce anything. One of the main themes in Naruto is Eyes vs Body, which is why I'm confused why this discussion. Taking into consideration Kishimoto and the direction he led the manga I highly doubt he would make Rinnegan give the user the ability to copy KKg especially since the Manga in it's entirety never stated such a significant fact, nor the databooks.

Oh well, here's the misunderstanding: I am saying that the Sharingan can copy certain Kekkei Genkai, not the Byakugan type of Kekkei Genkai, but those that involve seals. The Rin'negan cannot copy jutsu all at unless we're taking about Kaguya's eye powers, but that's another discussion entirely.​

 

[solorflare99]

Yeah, you misunderstood me. I basically said that the higher levels or stages of the Sharingan of the increase the two basic powers of the Sharingan, which is its insight and hypnosis. This is

You must be registered for see links

and not debatable. ​

The databook nor manga support your misunderstanding. The manga does

You must be registered for see links

You must be registered for see links

the notion that higher levels or stages increases the two basic powers of the Sharingan, which is its insight and hypnosis. Furthermore, the copying mechanism which I said does indeed extend to Kekkei Genkai using seals is confirmed in the databook and the manga.​

How does this invalidate the fact the databook states that the Sharingan is capable of copying all movements, even those involving a jutsu? The manga supports this as well during Hashirama's use of the

You must be registered for see links

and Sasuke's

You must be registered for see links

of Rock Lee's Kage Buyou. ​

Oh well, here's the misunderstanding: I am saying that the Sharingan can copy Kekkei Genkai that use hand-seals. The Rin'negan can copy jutsu all at unless we're taking about Kaguya's eye powers, but that's another discussion entirely.​

I get what you are trying to say with the supportive arguments, but I putting bluntly that the manga doesn't directly support the claim.
You have proven that EMS has improved sharingan, but you didn't prove
1) that Kakashi can't copy Kekkie Genkie(requirements to use like hand seals and chakra usage)
2) Sasuke and Madara improve it to a point so beyond Kakashi that they accomplish what you claim can't be done in 1.

Not one but two obstacles.

Sasuke and Madara have impressive copy feats but so doed Kakashi, excepts Kakashi is known to copy 1000, and is even known for copying jutsu.

Oh well, here's the misunderstanding: I am saying that the Sharingan can copy Kekkei Genkai that use hand-seals. I do not think the Rin'negan can copy jutsu all at unless we're taking about Kaguya's eye powers, but this another discussion entirely.

I just can't agree especially since nothing suggest that there body could do such a thing. Kekkie Genkie translate to Bloodline Limit, wouldn't make much sense for one who doesn't have the body(blood) to be able accomplish such a feat. To me that would be like an air bender also be able to fire bend. Or a human becoming a super saiyan. RSM which is said to put Naruto in a special state of mind that allows him to understand all chakra and other stuff related still couldn't use KKG without the help of the tailed beast. I just don't see how in a series where it's Body vs Eyes, Naruto vs Sasuke, Sasuke is able to accomplish a feat with his body that Naruto cannot. It seems ridiculous honestly, and doesn't match the story at all.

 

[Apêx1]

Your image doesn't work, you also have no knowledge of the manga do you.

Yes, him having Raikiri = him having Rasengan.

Kakshi stated he created the Chidori because he couldn't add an element to the Rasengan.

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This all happens BEFORE he got the Sharingan.

And Nagato never used any KKG with the rinnegan, even after he master it.

I don't know what fanfiction you read but Kakashi NEVER copied the Rasengan with sharingan, nor has ANYONE EVER copied a jutsu with no hand-signs with the Sharingan.

Ok you're right lml. But here [

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]. He said he can copy Rasengan or any A-level jutsu so that's all that matters.

You're right, Madara never used KKG with the Rinnegan (bar Mokuton) just like Obito never used any ninjutsu form of KKG while the Juubi Jin. Madara did with his Rinnegan though.

And again, you clearly have no understanding of how copying jutsu's works because copying hand seals does not mean you have access to the jutsu. Many jutsu use the same hand seals, by your logic they would all lead to the same jutsu if hand seals were the formation of the jutsu. The main thing is copying the opponent's chakra flow while using the ability, and that's a rather easy task for the Sharingan.

 

[Sasori]

I see .

 

[Waltz]

See that isn't proof. You are only interpreting it in that manner.

"Madara states that after he implanted Hashirama's genetic material that nothing occurred."
You are assuming that he wasn't talking about Rinnegan specifically. You are assuming that it was his first time using Mokuton. Third and most importantly you are assuming that he used Mokuton because of the Rinnegan, when no such thing is stated. Is this the only proof you have. It's all based off assumption.

No, it only makes sense that way. If Madara had access to Mokuton and it's properties before the Rin'negan surfaced then he wouldn't have needed the Mazou to cultivate it or to stay alive. ​