Sasuke's Ninjutsu Potential

[solorflare99]

Madara copied Hashirama's Jutsu but never had the potential to actually execute them until he gained the Rin'negan. Even states here that he's curious to do so:

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The Mokuton Madara implanted after his confrontation with Hashirama was un-reactive as he stated nothing occurred at first but the mixture eventually brought forth the Rin'ngan. ​

A lot of assuming but here are some assumptions to counter yours.

Assumption 1, Madara never had to use that jutsu as he never needed to. He never got into a battle after his fight with Hashirama, and if we were to assume that he couldn't use Mokuton until the time he got rinnegan then this make it even more likely he didn't use that jutsu. He even says it will be more significant because there are people around.

Assumption 2 Kabuto gave Madara enhanced mokuton, as he did say that he made Madara stronger and also put that face on his chest. which must have done something Madara.

 

[Varrah]

Going by this logic, Mokuton can be taught and not require it being implanted in bodies. Orochimaru killed a bunch of babies for nothing :/

No...going by this logic you don't substitute the Sharingan's copying mechanism to teaching a person Mokuton: you're placing a straw man in my argument by adding incomparable attributes and likened them together. ​

Clearly you need the right amount of DNA to make KKG as it has never been produced otherwise besides being a Jinchuriki.

My posts have been poorly explained, but what I am saying is that the Sharingan can copy Kekkei Genkai, at least those similar to Hashirama's Mokuton; that is chakra natures. I am not saying that the Sharingan can use this copied, chakra, Kekkei Genkai, they need the Rin'negan for that. ​

 

[TRE MERCER]

No...going by this logic you don't substitute the Sharingan's copying mechanism to teaching a person Mokuton: you're placing a straw man in my argument by adding incomparable attributes and likened them together. ​

My posts have been poorly explained, but what I am saying is that the Sharingan can copy Kekkei Genkai, at least those similar to Hashirama's Mokuton; that is chakra natures. I am not saying that the Sharingan can use this copied, chakra, Kekkei Genkai, they need the Rin'negan for that. ​

BOLD- So if Madara didn't have any Mokuton inside him but had the Rinnegan he would be able to use Mokuton?​

 

[solorflare99]

No...going by this logic you don't substitute the Sharingan's copying mechanism to teaching a person Mokuton: you're placing a straw man in my argument by adding incomparable attributes and likened them together. ​

My posts have been poorly explained, but what I am saying is that the Sharingan can copy Kekkei Genkai, at least those similar to Hashirama's Mokuton; that is chakra natures. I am not saying that the Sharingan can use this copied, chakra, Kekkei Genkai, they need the Rin'negan for that. ​

With Sharingan they are copying by learning(I meant learning by copying). Rinnegan has only been stated to grant the 5 Dojutsu. Why would it be that Hiruzen and Kakashi(who even has Sharingan) can't mix together Elements, but Rinnegan users can? Being able to use KKG with rinnegan is quite important, you'd think Kishi would mention something like that.

Do you really believe this, or arguing for the sake of arguing?

 

[Varrah]

BOLD- So if Madara didn't have any Mokuton inside him but had the Rinnegan he would be able to use Mokuton?​

I think this is a self defeating question Tre, the very nature of the Rin'negan requires Rikudo's chakra which is from the Shinju, thus inadvertently possessing Mokuton. I am going to ask you to reformulate your question so that I may better answer it. ​

With Sharingan they are copying by learning. Rinnegan has only been stated to grant the 5 Dojutsu. Why would it be that Hiruzen and Kakashi(who even has Sharingan) can't mix together Elements, but Rinnegan users can? Being able to use KKG with rinnegan is quite important, you'd think Kishi would mention something like that.

Do you really believe this, or arguing for the sake of arguing?

The Rin'negan grants all forms of elemental jutsu, not doujutsu's which are eye powers. I am not saying that Hiruzen and Kakashi cannot mix together elements in the event that they could; I am saying that if Hiruzen and Kakashi could mix together it would not still not be the same as a Kekkei Genkai like Mokuton because they are still missing a component or components that make Mokuton, Mokuton. Madara copying Mokuton is completely different than Hiruzen or Kakashi attempting to learn it without the Sharingan as the Sharingan literally gives to color to chakra, perceives the chakra circulatory system, and copies the specific particularities, whether it movement or hand-seals, needed to form Mokuton. ​

 

[solorflare99]

I think this is a self defeating question Tre, the very nature of the Rin'negan requires Rikudo's chakra which is from the Shinju, thus inadvertently possessing Mokuton. I am going to ask you to reformulate your question so that I may better answer it. ​

The Rin'negan grants all forms of elemental jutsu, not doujutsu's which are eye powers. I am not saying that Hiruzen and Kakashi cannot mix together elements in the event that they could; I am saying that if Hiruzen and Kakashi could mix together it would not still not be the same as a Kekkei Genkai like Mokuton because they are still missing a component or components that make Mokuton, Mokuton. Madara copying Mokuton is completely different than Hiruzen or Kakashi attempting to learn it without the Sharingan as the Sharingan literally gives to color to chakra, perceives the chakra circulatory system, and copies the specific particularities, whether it movement or hand-seals, needed to form Mokuton. ​

Oh, ok I had you misunderstood then. Is there proof that Rinnegan provide all Elements because I don't recall that being stated in the manga or Databooks.

 

[Apêx1]

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Second, There was a thread made some time back with about the whole "sasuke chakra controll is on the sages level". It was pointed out by a Japanese speaker that kurama was talking about sasuke's controll over the bijuu chakra by taking their chakra and merging it with his susanoo. Not his ability to control his own chakra.

That fits into the chakra control category, and he was compared to the Rikudo in that area, so I don't see where you're going with this. Controlling any chakra fits into chakra control. Sasuke attributed Naruto controlling his Kurama avatar to chakra control.

 

[solorflare99]

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Exactly my point, 6 not all.
Also might I add it didn't say the Rinnegan was responsible for that. One could assume Nagato is a prodigy=D

 

[KeyofDestiny]

Exactly my point, 6 not all.

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[solorflare99]

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Want to elaborate. As there are more then 6 counting KKG infact even without counting KKG their are 7.

 

[Apêx1]

Exactly, 6 not all.

Are you serious man?

 

[Varrah]

Exactly my point, 6 not all.

Care to elaborate

There are five types of environmental elements: Katon, Fūton, Raiton, Doton, and Suiton. Fire, Wind, Lighting, Earth, and Water are the five and among the basic types of elements out of the six Seishitsu Henka’s or Nature Transformations. The sixth type of Seishitsu Henka or Nature Transformation is Yang: physical energy governing vitality and the basis of Yang Release, and Yin: spiritual energy governing imagination and basis of Yin Release. This sixth type of Seishitsu Henka is a non-environmental ninjutsu. ​

As there are more then 6 counting KKG infact even without counting KKG their are 7.

May I ask you to clarify this sentence?​

 

[solorflare99]

Are you serious man?

Yes

First there are 7 basic elements. Second there are KKG, KKT, KKM. That's more than 6. Learn how to count next time.

 

[Waltz]

BOLD Because he needed the Rinnegan to call upon the Gedo Mazo not to use Hashirama's mokuton abilities.​

No he only needed the Rinnegan to summon the Gedo Mazo not to use Mokuton since Madara made the tree with Mokuton himself.​

Tre, Madara said he used the Mazou's Shell to as a catalyst to grow the Tree and from that he used it's energy to Sustain his life-force and Stay alive, just prior to this as I stated in my previous post we had Madara, with the implant and no Rin'negan on the verge of death. If he indeed could use and had access to Mokuton's properties prior to the Rin'negan then he would not have needed it as a means to cultivate Mokuton in order to stay alive. ​

 

[solorflare99]

There are five types of environmental elements: Katon, Fūton, Raiton, Doton, and Suiton. Fire, Wind, Lighting, Earth, and Water are the five and among the basic types of elements out of the six Seishitsu Henka’s or Nature Transformations. The sixth type of Seishitsu Henka or Nature Transformation is Yang: physical energy governing vitality and the basis of Yang Release, and Yin: spiritual energy governing imagination and basis of Yin Release. This sixth type of Seishitsu Henka is a non-environmental ninjutsu. ​

Your point? KKG, KKT, and KKM. There are more than 6.

 

[Apêx1]

Yes

First there are 7 basic elements. Second there are KKG, KKT, KKM. That's more than 6. Learn how to count next time.

Yin-Yang is one element. Katon, Raiton, Suiton, Doton, Futon. I count 6. And he could use all 6 main forms of Nature Transformation. How does that mean he doesn't have anything more then that? There's literally no implications working against him possessing KKG, etc from that panel. All it says is that he possesses those 6 main ones. If a scan suggests Naruto has Rasengan, does that mean he ONLY possesses Rasengan?

 

[Varrah]

Your point?

You asked for elaboration, Flare. ​

KKG, KKT, and KKM. There are more than 6.

They all come from these six nature transformations or seishitsu henka’s.​

 

[solorflare99]

Yin-Yang is one element. Katon, Raiton, Suiton, Doton, Futon. I count 6. And he could use all 6 main forms of Nature Transformation. How does that mean he doesn't have anything more then that? There's literally no implications working against him possessing KKG, etc from that panel. All it says is that he possesses those 6 main ones. If a scan suggests Naruto has Rasengan, does that mean he ONLY possesses Rasengan?

Yin-Yang isn't one element. Yin-Yang release is what Truth seeking balls are. Basically what you are saying is if a scan suggest Naruto has rasengan, you have the right to assume he has Chidori? It says 6, not more than that. When Kakashi said how many Nature release Yamato had he said 3(water,earth,wood) not 2(just wood and water). Are you suggesting that because Kakashi has sharingan and water + earth release he can use Mokuton? Kishimoto gives you a number and your still trying to say other wise.

Source

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Clearly implies "Yin" and "Yang" are separate.

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In case you forgot

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[solorflare99]

You asked for elaboration, Flare. ​

They all come from these six nature transformations or seishitsu henka’s.​

Yes but they count as their own element. Kakashi refers to the amount of elements Yamato has as 3 not 2.

 

[Varrah]

Yes but they count as their own element. Kakashi refers to the amount of elements Yamato has as 3 not 2.

Yep, not arguing that.​