Sasuke's Ninjutsu Potential

[Zexion~]

Again, didn't Madara have Hashirama's cells/chakra in him when he "copied" the Mokuton?

 

[Apêx1]

This is kinda' why I suggest to people that they shouldn't use the lack of evidence for something as evidence against it, but it is equally important for us to not exaggerate that something which lacks evidence. ​

It is possible, but it is up to the user.​

Yep, I agree with you. People tend to assume because high-level people haven't shown Kage Bunshin's, they can't do it, despite tonnes of randoms having shown it. Many cases of examples were a person logically can use a jutsu, but people ignore it in order to keep their argument alive.

 

[Varrah]

Again, didn't Madara have Hashirama's cells/chakra in him when he "copied" the Mokuton?

No, any injections of Hashirama's chakra/cells happened

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.​

 

[Zexion~]

No, any injections of Hashirama's chakra/cells happened

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.​

Swing me the scan of when he copied it then, please.

 

[Varrah]

Swing me the scan of when he copied it then, please.

I posted it in a

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on the first page.​

 

[solorflare99]

Kekkei genki can't be used, Juubi jin been shown to use any kekkie genkei.

 

[LuckyMan]

Yep, I agree with you. People tend to assume because high-level people haven't shown Kage Bunshin's, they can't do it, despite tonnes of randoms having shown it. Many cases of examples were a person logically can use a jutsu, but people ignore it in order to keep their argument alive.

People ignore it because its not a feat the person holds in the manga. Ay IV used Shadow Clone in the Blood Prison Naruto movie. Ay IV is a high level ninja and can most likely use them, especially when like you said, too many random fodders have easily used Shadow Clones but people don't go around saying Ay can use Shadow Clones because it occurred in movie (same dude who made the Last actually and people take that as canon despite them breathing in space when they can't even breathe in water on earth) and not in the manga, even if its highly possible he can use it remains a possibility, not a fact.

 

[BlacLord™]

I will read through the rest and respond accordingly, but the insightfulness of the Sharingan can copy jutsu regardless of the chakra quantity needed to use said jutsu (unless that new databook claims otherwise); the Sharingan, however, cannot copy any jutsu Kekkei Genkai. ​

Unless you possess the Kekkei Genkai, or have its chakra premoulded.

Just like how the famed Copy Ninja skipped Susano'o progression by using the copying ability on Sasuke's PS.

 

[Exaar]

I would just like to say two things.

First off, There is zero proof of Madara actually copying Mokuton jutsu's, Just speculation. it has been stated many a time that the sharingan cannot copy KKG. It has not been stated, It can copy KKG but the user simply cannot use it due to lack of DNA or what not.

Second, There was a thread made some time back with about the whole "sasuke chakra controll is on the sages level". It was pointed out by a Japanese speaker that kurama was talking about sasuke's controll over the bijuu chakra by taking their chakra and merging it with his susanoo. Not his ability to control his own chakra.
So the whole "sasuke's chakra control is on the sages level" when it comes to controlling his own chakra is irrelevant.

 

[Gagster]

Pretty sure Onoki learned Jinton [

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]. He wasn't using it as a child like, say, Haku was using Ice as a child. He actually had to learn about it before he used it. And it's not like Mu had some kind of blood relation with Onoki either.

Rinnegan presumably gives you all 5 chakra elements as affinities. Affinity merely means the easiest one to use and master, but Nagato had all 5 mastered at the age of 10. Would make literally no sense if he had to learn each one as a non-affinity. Not to mention Shinra Tensei requires all 5 elements to be used. So that in itself implies the Rinnegan allows its user to use combinations of different elements for different effects. But I guess it's all up to interpretation, and what Madara used being due to the Rinnegan or due to the Juubi.



1. Based on absolutely nothing. He definitely did not have Rasengan mastered as a kid. He clearly stated he copied it with his Sharingan.

2. Based on nothing. Kakashi copied Kisame's jutsu and Zabuza's jutsu. He simply needs to analyse his chakra flow and replicate the same pattern. He copied Rasengan which uses no hand seals. He copied many others which use no hand seals. Your point is moot.

3. I didn't suggest Madara's ability to use Mokuton was due to his Rinnegan. I suggested his Ranton was due to the Rinnegan rather then the Juubi, which can be interpreted as 50/50 true or false.

Are you joking or do you really not read the manga?

1.Kakashi had Raikari BEFORE Obito gave him the Sharingan, Him copying Rasengan with his Sharingan was never stated.

Spoiler

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2. Kakashi never copied the Rasengan with the Sharingan. He invented his chidori before he had the sharingan by experimenting with the Rasengan. Sharingan has never copied a jutsu without hand-seals because it can't, learn how the sharingan works before you make any more threads about it.

Spoiler

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3.No it can't, The rinnegan has never been said to allow use of KKG. And if that was true he would have used it before he absorbed the Juubi.

 

[Apêx1]

People ignore it because its not a feat the person holds in the manga. Ay IV used Shadow Clone in the Blood Prison Naruto movie. Ay IV is a high level ninja and can most likely use them, especially when like you said, too many random fodders have easily used Shadow Clones but people don't go around saying Ay can use Shadow Clones because it occurred in movie (same dude who made the Last actually and people take that as canon despite them breathing in space when they can't even breathe in water on earth) and not in the manga, even if its highly possible he can use it remains a possibility, not a fact.

Yep, agree with you 100%. Even people like Mu, and even the Sandaime Raikage should be capable of that, but people don't like to agree on such because it can mean that one character who was portrayed as 'good' becomes a 'great'. Imagine 10 Sandaime Raikag'e shunshin'ing around with a Hell Stab. No counter to it tbh.

 

[Apêx1]

Are you joking or do you really not read the manga?

1.Kakashi had Raikari BEFORE Obito gave him the Sharingan, Him copying Rasengan with his Sharingan was never stated.

Spoiler

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2. Kakashi never copied the Rasengan with the Sharingan. He invented his chidori before he had the sharingan by experimenting with the Rasengan. Sharingan has never copied a jutsu without hand-seals because it can't, learn how the sharingan works before you make any more threads about it.

Spoiler

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3.No it can't, The rinnegan has never been said to allow use of KKG. And if that was true he would have used it before he absorbed the Juubi.

1. So him having Raikiri=Him having Rasnegan? Lmfao. Read my thread. First scan Kakashi states he copied it because it was only A-level smfh. [

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]

2. Clearly did.

3. He used it once after absorbing the Juubi, Obito never used it and had the Juubi. It's not really an argument to say "he would've" because I can make a million canonical "would've" scenario's which don't actually mean anything.

 

[Zexion~]

It can't copy the KKG passed down through specific blood lines though (Kaguya), merely the ones that combine separate natures, of course you'd have to have said natures.

So yeah Varrah was right.

 

[BlacLord™]

Pretty sure Onoki learned Jinton [

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]. He wasn't using it as a child like, say, Haku was using Ice as a child. He actually had to learn about it before he used it. And it's not like Mu had some kind of blood relation with Onoki either.

Rinnegan presumably gives you all 5 chakra elements as affinities. Affinity merely means the easiest one to use and master, but Nagato had all 5 mastered at the age of 10. Would make literally no sense if he had to learn each one as a non-affinity. Not to mention Shinra Tensei requires all 5 elements to be used. So that in itself implies the Rinnegan allows its user to use combinations of different elements for different effects. But I guess it's all up to interpretation, and what Madara used being due to the Rinnegan or due to the Juubi.



1. Based on absolutely nothing. He definitely did not have Rasengan mastered as a kid. He clearly stated he copied it with his Sharingan.

2. Based on nothing. Kakashi copied Kisame's jutsu and Zabuza's jutsu. He simply needs to analyse his chakra flow and replicate the same pattern. He copied Rasengan which uses no hand seals. He copied many others which use no hand seals. Your point is moot.

3. I didn't suggest Madara's ability to use Mokuton was due to his Rinnegan. I suggested his Ranton was due to the Rinnegan rather then the Juubi, which can be interpreted as 50/50 true or false.

Onoki learned how to use Jinton from Mū because the latter also possessed the KKT. It's not unheard of for two unrelated people to possess the genetic strand for an advanced nature - just look at Mei, Dodai and Kurotsuchi; all from different villages but they also possess Yōton. And besides, even if Ōnoki didn't possess the Jinton gene from birth, it's also not unheard of people implanting genetic material in order to gain access to a Bloodline Limit... Whether it be a Sharingan eye or Mokuton, it all works.

Everyone knew that the First Tsuchikage's grandson would end up becoming Tsuchikage's himself, even Gengetsu noted that. So it also makes perfect sense that his master could bestowed the power of Jinton to his successor, as a legacy to protect the villages future.


And he did master Rasengan as a kid, because he noted that Chidori was the result of a failed attempt to add nature transformation to Rasengan. And he first used Chidori at the start of his first mission as Jōnin; before he got the Sharingan.

 

[TRE MERCER]

Varrah was wrong he was only able to do so via Mokuton already in his cells not the Rinnegan he missed me with that logic.​

 

[BlacLord™]

The Sharingan can copy Kekkei Genkai, it's a simple matter of the Sharingan being unable to reproduce the copied material due to the user's limitations; the Rin'negan alleviates these limitations, hence is why Madara was able to

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Hashirama's

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and later use it

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Naruto. ​

Madara was able to reproduce Mokuryū because he was plastered in Hashirama's cells. The Rinnegan specifically lets you master the five basic natures, not use all techniques unless you have the specific genetic material.

if it were true that the Rinnegan were the reason, Kid Obito wouldn't have been able to use Mokuton against the Kiri-nin, which Guruguru and Madara noted was down to having Hashirama's cells.

 

[LuckyMan]

It can't copy the KKG passed down through specific blood lines though (Kaguya), merely the ones that combine separate natures, of course you'd have to have said natures.

So yeah Varrah was right.

It can't copy KKG period. The manga has repeated this over and over and over. Kakashi said he couldn't copy Hakus moves because they were a KKG. Rinnegan doesn't allow you to copy them all of a sudden. No ability was ever stated nor hinted, this is basically you taking the Sharingan and saying "hey it can't copy KKG but its evolved state (Rinnegan) must obviously can because... its evolved.....'' and that makes zero sense. You'd have a a little point if there was something ever mentioned about but literally in 710 chapters not one shred of evidence in the manga supports it.

And someone remove this Varrah dude, hes going against manga canon now.

 

[Rιver]

I would just like to say two things.

First off, There is zero proof of Madara actually copying Mokuton jutsu's, Just speculation. it has been stated many a time that the sharingan cannot copy KKG. It has not been stated, It can copy KKG but the user simply cannot use it due to lack of DNA or what not.

Second, There was a thread made some time back with about the whole "sasuke chakra controll is on the sages level". It was pointed out by a Japanese speaker that kurama was talking about sasuke's controll over the bijuu chakra by taking their chakra and merging it with his susanoo. Not his ability to control his own chakra.
So the whole "sasuke's chakra control is on the sages level" when it comes to controlling his own chakra is irrelevant.

He can if he can access that KKG. You can copy a jutsu but not get KKG. And if you can't get KKG, you can't get jutsu. After you get KKG, it's just seals man.

Actually I read Varrah's post again and I probably disagree on one point. He said that Rinnegan frees you from limitations (KKG limitation), implying that Rinnegan givea KKG. Rinnegan gives all elements but no KKG is an element to begin with.

 

[Varrah]

Kekkei genki can't be used, Juubi jin been shown to use any kekkie genkei.

First off, There is zero proof of Madara actually copying Mokuton jutsu's, Just speculation. it has been stated many a time that the sharingan cannot copy KKG. It has not been stated, It can copy KKG but the user simply cannot use it due to lack of DNA or what not.

Again, Madara

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and later using Hashirama's

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Naruto invalidates these propositions. ​

 

[LuckyMan]

Again, Madara

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and later using Hashirama's

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Naruto invalidates these propositions. ​

Please stop it. Emphasis being put on his EMS doesn't equal him copying the ability. If you had at least half the brain cells one is supposed to have you'd realize he was activating his eyes to use Susanoo in the next panel.