Sasuke's Amaterasu, Kagetsuchi and Itachi's Amaterasu

Cameron1 · Jul 13, 2014

Johndoesknowall said:
Well A flamethrower you have control of the flame because it is directly connected to the user, so you can make it stronger or put it out.

A fireball you shoot out and you lose control of it therefore, losing the ability to make it stronger and you won't be able to extinguish it. In amaterasu's case anyway.

Sorry I just edited my post. please take a look at it

Johndoesknowall · Jul 13, 2014

Cameron1 said:
What's the difference between a flamethrower and a fireball? In actual practice I mean. Isn't a flamethrower just the continuous expulsion of fireballs? Why would shooting fireballs at an increased rate give one more control over them, when one does not have control over any individual fire ball?

Well actually it is a continuous flame propelled by and still connected to it's user. The user has absolute control over the form and shape of it and also can stop it.

The fireball is used in a context of shooting/casting. Meaning that it has disconnected from it's user. The user no longer manipulates the flame and has no control over it.

Cameron1 · Jul 13, 2014

Johndoesknowall said:
Some people believe that Itachi was the first to show "Flame Control"

Some even believe that what itachi did here:

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Is the exact same feat as what Sasuke did here:

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But the only similarity is that the flames were put out. The way they were put out are two totally different things.

The user of just Amaterasu from what we know has two forms of attacks from the users line of sight. They can fire it constantly, Like a flamethrower, or the can shoot/cast it, like a fire ball. But their are restrictions. When you shoot/cast amaterasu, you can no longer extinguish the flame because it is not connected to it's user anymore. You can only extinguish the flame when you fire it constantly, like a flamethrower, while maintaining control of it.

Example: is above when Itachi fired amaterasu until it burned away sasuke's fire jutsu then he stopped the flames by closing his eye. He used the amaterasu like a flamethrower until it burned away Sasuke's Jutsu. He still had control of the flame and therefore was able to stop it.

What Sasuke shows is the first account and only one to have Flame control. Sasuke is the only ninja to possess enton as we know of. Enton is used to manipulate the flames of amaterasu. Flame control is a form of Enton. Itachi does not have enton.

Here is the second account of enton Kagutsuchi:

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I didn't want to use Karin's because this one shows it better. As you see Sasuke was able to extinguish the black flames after having shot/cast it. Also he was able to extinguish them with his eyes open. As you can see enton allows it's user to reconnect, connect,and/or even stay connected to flames regardless of how amaterasu is used. Whether fired constantly or shot/cast. Also Sasuke is able to even cast flames to a location that is not in his line of sight.

Exaple:

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Now I know that this only proves more that Sasuke has Enton, but the point I'm getting across is that Itachi had no enton, or flame control or even blaze release. He simply had Amaterasu. He could only extinguish flames through shutting his eye if he still had control of the flame. Once he cast/shoots it, he no longer has control and therefore is not able to extinguish it.

Itachi and Sasuke put out the flames two different ways meaning that they were two different techniques. There's more but I'm getting tired. I hope this explains it well enough to those individuals.

Also is there a scan that directly attributes the quelling of the Amaterasu to the Kagetsuchi abilities and not to a base ability of Amaterasu users?

Johndoesknowall · Jul 13, 2014

Cameron1 said:
Also is there a scan that directly attributes the quelling of the Amaterasu to the Kagetsuchi abilities and not to a base ability of Amaterasu users?

This thread wasn't meant to actually give an in dept description of the abilities of both kage and Ama. It was meant to show that Sasuke was the first to show flame control and to debunk the theory of Itachi having flame control.

Troyg39 · Jul 13, 2014

Johndoesknowall said:
The flamethrower was never shown to actually hit the forest. As we know Amaterasu can spread so it is suggested that when Itachi started casting/shooting amaterasu it spread through the forest. When he started using amaterasu like a flamethrower it was seen to be chasing Sasuke and not going into the forest. You state his flamethrower hit the forest but you have no concrete proof. Also him shutting his eye was the reason for the flames stopping. You saying that it was because they burned away Sasuke's flames is wrong. All you have is suggestions and you seem to not be understanding what the manga is saying/showing you.

Also I never stated you said Itachi had enton. You stated that itachi was the first to show flame control. Flame control aka kagutsuchi is a form of enton Itachi did not have. I stated you were wrong and that Sasuke was the first to show flame control. Also you may try to reword you statements of the past comments but it's not working. You stated that flame control was first introduce by Itachi which is wrong. Also you stated that Sasuke and Itachi putting out the flames is the exact same feat which is also wrong.

1st bold: Wrong

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Here you see Itachi shoot Amaterasu and Sasuke move before he opens his eyes

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You CLEARLY see Amaterasu misses Sasuke and hits the forest. You even see the trajectory of Amaterasu following Sasuke's movements. You also see Itachi's eyes are still open and is still casting Amaterasu, meaning it is all still apart of the same continuous Amaterasu

2nd bold: You really want me to take your word over Zetsu?

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He clearly states Itachi was attempting to smother flame with flame which means Itachi's target was Sasuke's flame, and that Amaterasu stops on it's own when it's intended target is gone.

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You see here that even after Itachi closes his eyes, the Amaterasu flames aren't out yet because they are still burning out the remaining flame from Sasuke, it's intended target, which suggests that simply closing your eye does not put out Amaterasu. How can shutting his eye be the reason the flames stopped when the flames weren't stopped after shutting his eyes?

3rd bold: Enton=Blaze Release=Inferno Style=Flame Control. There are numerous ways to control the flame. Kagetsuchi is not "aka flame control". Kagetsuchi is a form of flame control, like Yasaka Magatama, or Susanoo Kagetsuchi. They are different forms of flame control. Putting out Amaterasu is not Kagetsuchi. Kagetsuchi is SHAPE MANIPULATION of the flames. You do not put out Amaterasu when you do Kagetsuchi. When Sasuke used his right eye against Bee to put out the flames, he did use a form of flame control, but that wasn't Kagetsuchi. But the fact that he had to do so with his right eye, shows us that putting out the flame was apart of his flame control package, because we know that he can only manipulate Amaterasu with his other eye, otherwise it would've just gone out when he closed his eye the first time. That is the hypocrisy in your arguement. Which means that when Itachi put out Amaterasu, it was apart of his flame control. You don't even know what you are talking about yet you really went through all this trouble to bring back a dead argument?

Whether you want to call it Enton or not is irrelevant, but Itachi was the first to show us a form of flame control. Putting out Amaterasu is not Kagesuchi, just like Yasaka Magatama is not Kagesuchi, but all three are a form of flame control.

Water bomb jutsu is not water prison jutsu just like Dragon bullet jutsu isn't water prison jutsu, but they are all forms of water style jutsu. I don't know how else to explain this shit man

Cameron1 said:
Also is there a scan that directly attributes the quelling of the Amaterasu to the Kagetsuchi abilities and not to a base ability of Amaterasu users?

No there is not because Kagetsuchi isn't all there is to flame control. It is a form of flame control via shape manipulation only. You don't put out Amaterasu when you do Kagetuchi. They are completely different. So no you won't find a scan that says anything like that. Kagetsuchi is a form of blaze release like Yasaka Magatama. It's like how Phoenix flower jutsu and and Fire ball jutsu aren't the same thing but both fall under the umbrella of fire style

Johndoesknowall · Jul 13, 2014

troyg39 said:
1st bold: Wrong

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Here you see Itachi shoot Amaterasu and Sasuke move before he opens his eyes

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You CLEARLY see Amaterasu misses Sasuke and hits the forest. You even see the trajectory of Amaterasu following Sasuke's movements. You also see Itachi's eyes are still open and is still casting Amaterasu, meaning it is all still apart of the same continuous Amaterasu

2nd bold: You really want me to take your word over Zetsu?

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He clearly states Itachi was attempting to smother flame with flame which means Itachi's target was Sasuke's flame, and that Amaterasu stops on it's own when it's intended target is gone.

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You see here that even after Itachi closes his eyes, the Amaterasu flames aren't out yet because they are still burning out the remaining flame from Sasuke, it's intended target, which suggests that simply closing your eye does not put out Amaterasu. How can shutting his eye be the reason the flames stopped when the flames weren't stopped after shutting his eyes?

3rd bold: Enton=Blaze Release=Inferno Style=Flame Control. There are numerous ways to control the flame. Kagetsuchi is not "aka flame control". Kagetsuchi is a form of flame control, like Yasaka Magatama, or Susanoo Kagetsuchi. They are different forms of flame control. Putting out Amaterasu is not Kagetsuchi. Kagetsuchi is SHAPE MANIPULATION of the flames. You do not put out Amaterasu when you do Kagetsuchi. When Sasuke used his right eye against Bee to put out the flames, he did use a form of flame control, but that wasn't Kagetsuchi. But the fact that he had to do so with his right eye, shows us that putting out the flame was apart of his flame control package, because we know that he can only manipulate Amaterasu with his other eye, otherwise it would've just gone out when he closed his eye the first time. That is the hypocrisy in your arguement. Which means that when Itachi put out Amaterasu, it was apart of his flame control. You don't even know what you are talking about yet you really went through all this trouble to bring back a dead argument?

Whether you want to call it Enton or not is irrelevant, but Itachi was the first to show us a form of flame control. Putting out Amaterasu is not Kagesuchi, just like Yasaka Magatama is not Kagesuchi, but all three are a form of flame control.

Water bomb jutsu is not water prison jutsu just like Dragon bullet jutsu isn't water prison jutsu, but they are all forms of water style jutsu. I don't know how else to explain this shit man

When Itachi first starts to use amaterasu at Sasuke everyone can see he was casting/shooting it. He was not firing it consistently like a flamethrower. He used both forms of Amaterasu. He hit Sasuke when using the flamethrower. This is already proven and you can also look in the anime for more clarification.

Also all Zetsu was doing was saying what he saw. He was not reading into the battle and knowing the thoughts of what Itachi was doing or thinking. So yes, you should take my word over zetsu since I know what Itachi was doing and since I am a reader and know more info about that situation than zetsu does.

The flames were slowly vanishing, Just because he closes his eyes does not mean the flames will instantly disappear.

Flame control and Kagutsuchi is the same thing. One is English and another is from a different language. You can look it up if you like. They are both a form of Enton. I see you are confused and so the rest was written by your understanding that they are different which is wrong.

All Itachi showed was amaterasu.

Troyg39 · Jul 13, 2014

Johndoesknowall said:
When Itachi first starts to use amaterasu at Sasuke everyone can see he was casting/shooting it. He was not firing it consistently like a flamethrower. He used both forms of Amaterasu. He hit Sasuke when using the flamethrower. This is already proven and you can also look in the anime for more clarification.

Also all Zetsu was doing was saying what he saw. He was not reading into the battle and knowing the thoughts of what Itachi was doing or thinking. So yes, you should take my word over zetsu since I know what Itachi was doing and since I am a reader and know more info about that situation than zetsu does.

The flames were slowly vanishing, Just because he closes his eyes does not mean the flames will instantly disappear.

Flame control and Kagutsuchi is the same thing. One is English and another is from a different language. You can look it up if you like. They are both a form of Enton. I see you are confused and so the rest was written by your understanding that they are different which is wrong.

All Itachi showed was amaterasu.

Kid you can see the trajectory of Amaterasu after Itachi fires. I JUST showed you this. It was a continuous flame. That's why it wasn't just in one spot. Do you really have that much of a problem with being wrong?

Kagutsuchi does not mean "flame control" in Japanese, or any other language. Kaen Seigyo is the japanese translation for flame control. I'm done man. I really am

Johndoesknowall · Jul 14, 2014

troyg39 said:
Kid you can see the trajectory of Amaterasu after Itachi fires. I JUST showed you this. It was a continuous flame. That's why it wasn't just in one spot. Do you really have that much of a problem with being wrong?

Kagutsuchi does not mean "flame control" in Japanese, or any other language. Kaen Seigyo is the japanese translation for flame control. I'm done man. I really am

I have already showed you the page:

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His first shots were not continuous like a flamethrower. The were separated and I also stated you may look at the anime for more clarification. Later he then changed his attack form to that of a flamethrower. This page shows it.

Also I am not talking about the japanese version of the word. I am talking about the Series version of the word and they are the same.

When in the manga he uses Kagetsuchi in one language and then he uses Flame control in another language in the same scenes.

This is a link to the english version of the raikage fight:

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You should start around 18:30

This is a page where he say kagetsuchi in the same scene:

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I really hope you reply. I would like to see how you counter my argument.

HashiramaIsBack · Jul 14, 2014

It's obvious,but oh well.

Troyg39 · Jul 14, 2014

Johndoesknowall said:
I have already showed you the page:

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His first shots were not continuous like a flamethrower. The were separated and I also stated you may look at the anime for more clarification. Later he then changed his attack form to that of a flamethrower. This page shows it.

Also I am not talking about the japanese version of the word. I am talking about the Series version of the word and they are the same.

When in the manga he uses Kagetsuchi in one language and then he uses Flame control in another language in the same scenes.

This is a link to the english version of the raikage fight:
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You should start around 18:30

This is a page where he say kagetsuchi in the same scene:

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I really hope you reply. I would like to see how you counter my argument.

Fool, he clearly says "ENTON" Kagutsuchi in the chapter!!!!

Enton is blaze release which is FLAME CONTROL !! Kagutsuchi is a FORM of FLAME CONTROL !! That's ehy Kagutsuchi isn't putting out the fire. That's why Yasaka Magatama is not Kagutsuchi. They are DIFFERENT FORMS of FLAME CONTROL.

To say that Kagutsuchi is flame control is to say he's not using flame control when he uses YM. That is an incorrect statement. Kagutsuchi is just one form of flame control. You are wrong

Johndoesknowall · Jul 14, 2014

troyg39 said:
Fool, he clearly says "ENTON" Kagutsuchi in the chapter!!!!

Enton is blaze release which is FLAME CONTROL !! Kagutsuchi is a FORM of FLAME CONTROL !! That's ehy Kagutsuchi isn't putting out the fire. That's why Yasaka Magata is not Kagutsuchi. They are DIFFERENT FORMS of FLAME CONTROL.

To say that Kagutsuchi is flame control is to say he's not using flame control when he uses YM. That is an incorrect statement. Kagutsuchi is just one form of flame control. You are wrong

Enton, blaze release and Inferno style are all the same when used in the series, once again just depends on the series language. Flame control AKA Kagetsuchi is a form of enton, not Flame control.

I have proved it with pages but all you have done is state something you cannot back. Even in the anime he says inferno style in english and in the manga he says Enton.

Also Yasaka Magata is just another form of enton. They are different forms of Enton not flame control.

Also I do not like to be called names. Let's be civil here.

Troyg39 · Jul 14, 2014

Johndoesknowall said:
Enton, blaze release and Inferno style are all the same when used in the series, once again just depends on the series language. Flame control AKA Kagetsuchi is a form of enton, not Flame control.

I have proved it with pages but all you have done is state something you cannot back. Even in the anime he says inferno style in english and in the manga he says Enton.

Also Yasaka Magata is just another form of enton. They are different forms of Enton not flame control.

Also I do not like to be called names. Let's be civil here.

But in the anime you said he said flame control, not inferno style. So which is it?

Enton is flame control. Kagutsuchi is a form of enton. Which means it's a form of flame control. You are wrong

Johndoesknowall · Jul 14, 2014

troyg39 said:
But in the anime you said he said flame control, not inferno style. So which is it?

Enton is flame control. Kagutsuchi is a form of enton. Which means it's a form of flame control. You are wrong

I am sorry if you didn't understand it. When I showed you the manga and anime. I was proving to you that Kagetsuchi and flame control are used as the same thing in the series. Then you emphasized him saying Enton and I corrected you by stating that Enton also has two other names used in the series. Blaze release and inferno style.

I proved my point on how Flame control is known as Kagetsuchi. They are the same. Then I also proved that Enton is also known as Blaze release and Inferno style. I hope you understand now.

Enton is not flame control. Flame control is a form of enton.

Troyg39 · Jul 14, 2014

Johndoesknowall said:
I am sorry if you didn't understand it. When I showed you the manga and anime. I was proving to you that Kagetsuchi and flame control are used as the same thing in the series. Then you emphasized him saying Enton and I corrected you by stating that Enton also has two other names used in the series. Blaze release and inferno style.

I proved my point on how Flame control is known as Kagetsuchi. They are the same. Then I also proved that Enton is also known as Blaze release and Inferno style. I hope you understand now.

Enton is not flame control. Flame control is a form of enton.

I understood that perfectly fine, this is what my last comment was getting at. You keep saying it's a language translation but it is not. Kagutsuchi does not translate to flame control in any language. The reason the series used the phrase "flame control" is because Kagutsuchi is not an actual attack but just a form of flame control via manipulating it's shape. It is just shape manipulation of the flames. This is something that is explained in every explanation of Kagutsuchi you can find (feel free to look it up).

This is also the reason why I asked earlier about Yasaka Magatama not being Kagutsuchi but they both are forms of flame control. Your quote here is incorrect by your own argument:

Also Yasaka Magata is just another form of enton. They are different forms of Enton not flame control.

If Yasaka Magatama is not a form of flame control, then Yaskaka Magatama is also not a form of Kagutsuchi since Kagutsuchi=Flame Control in your eyes. However that is false because Yasaka Magatama's parent jutsu is Susanoo Kagutsuchi.

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Feel free to read up on it. If you are one of those people that do not trust the wiki, feel free to search for another summary but I assure you it will be the same thing. Note that even in Susanoo Kagutsuchi, it isn't a specific attack. It is just various forms of shape manipulation using Susanoo. Which yes is still flame control, but flame control via shape manipulation. Shape manipulation is not the only form of flame control. This also helps explain why the English TV phrase is flame control. Kagutsuchi is broad, and so is the phrase "flame control". You can do a variety of things with Kagutsuchi, so they likely went with that phrase "flame control" to cover all the different things you could do rather than try an "Enton" (Insert Name here) for every single instance of Kagutsuchi when they could just use flame control as a blanket statement.

The only reason Yasaka Magatama has it's own name is because it can specifically be pinpointed thanks to the distinctions of the Magatamas and the black orb. Susanoo Kagutsuchi has it's own name because of the distinction of Susanoo. When Sasuke used Kagutsuchi on Ay, he just manipulated the flame's shape. Nothing specific or distinct enough for it's own name.

Yes, you could argue that they could've just said "Inferno Style: Shape Manipulation" rather than flame control, but it's also a fact that Kagutsuchi doesn't mean "flame control" in any language, so we know this a phrase they just slapped on the word in english to better explain what it is going on. You can not use that as a definition for Kagutsuchi. You have to go by what is specifically explained about it when you look it up and as I have said and provided a link for (again feel free to search yourself), Kagutsuchi is shape manipulation of Amaterasu, apart of flame control, but not the only form of flame control possible.

KisuneUchiha · Jul 14, 2014

Actually I don't think that itachi was shooting out Amaterasu like a flamethrower, I believe that he just fired off a couple of Amaterasu balls, then closed his eyes due to the strain. On top of that, I think that the manga stated that Itachi couldn't actually extinguish the flames himself, they only went out when they completely burned up the target

Johndoesknowall · Jul 15, 2014

troyg39 said:
I understood that perfectly fine, this is what my last comment was getting at. You keep saying it's a language translation but it is not. Kagutsuchi does not translate to flame control in any language. The reason the series used the phrase "flame control" is because Kagutsuchi is not an actual attack but just a form of flame control via manipulating it's shape. It is just shape manipulation of the flames. This is something that is explained in every explanation of Kagutsuchi you can find (feel free to look it up).

This is also the reason why I asked earlier about Yasaka Magatama not being Kagutsuchi but they both are forms of flame control. Your quote here is incorrect by your own argument:

If Yasaka Magatama is not a form of flame control, then Yaskaka Magatama is also not a form of Kagutsuchi since Kagutsuchi=Flame Control in your eyes. However that is false because Yasaka Magatama's parent jutsu is Susanoo Kagutsuchi.

You must be registered for see links

Feel free to read up on it. If you are one of those people that do not trust the wiki, feel free to search for another summary but I assure you it will be the same thing. Note that even in Susanoo Kagutsuchi, it isn't a specific attack. It is just various forms of shape manipulation using Susanoo. Which yes is still flame control, but flame control via shape manipulation. Shape manipulation is not the only form of flame control. This also helps explain why the English TV phrase is flame control. Kagutsuchi is broad, and so is the phrase "flame control". You can do a variety of things with Kagutsuchi, so they likely went with that phrase "flame control" to cover all the different things you could do rather than try an "Enton" (Insert Name here) for every single instance of Kagutsuchi when they could just use flame control as a blanket statement.

The only reason Yasaka Magatama has it's own name is because it can specifically be pinpointed thanks to the distinctions of the Magatamas and the black orb. Susanoo Kagutsuchi has it's own name because of the distinction of Susanoo. When Sasuke used Kagutsuchi on Ay, he just manipulated the flame's shape. Nothing specific or distinct enough for it's own name.

Yes, you could argue that they could've just said "Inferno Style: Shape Manipulation" rather than flame control, but it's also a fact that Kagutsuchi doesn't mean "flame control" in any language, so we know this a phrase they just slapped on the word in english to better explain what it is going on. You can not use that as a definition for Kagutsuchi. You have to go by what is specifically explained about it when you look it up and as I have said and provided a link for (again feel free to search yourself), Kagutsuchi is shape manipulation of Amaterasu, apart of flame control, but not the only form of flame control possible.

If you wish to use the wiki I shall use it also even though I don't rely on it 100% due to it being fan made. Some of it is based upon their opinion but some is also right and I'll understand if you don't want to agree with it.

Here:

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You'll see that when flame control is typed in it brings up "Blaze Release: Kagutsuchi." Now I've already explained that Blaze release has two other names Enton and Inferno Style. Even in the wiki when you type it in you will be able to see it right below the picture at the top in the name category:

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That means Enton, Blaze Release and Inferno Style are all the same thing. This we should agree on. You can keep your suggestions to yourself until you bring fact as I have.

Now back to the first link. When "Flame Control" is typed in "Kagutsuchi" is brought up because it is another name for it. You can also look in the name category to find it. This is anime and words that usually have different definitions can be used as the same thing because the series puts it that way. What matters is how the anime uses the word. So in this case Flame control and Kagutsuchi are used for the same thing, they are the same.

Here is the definition right from wiki when you type in Flame control.

Blaze Release: "Kagutsuchi" is a technique which applies Shape Transformation to the black flames of Amaterasu, allowing the user to manipulate them at will. In Sasuke's case, while Amaterasu is cast from his left eye, he uses his right eye to manipulate the flames. After entering its final form, Sasuke's Susanoo gained an orb of black flames, which serves as an alternate source of flames to manipulate with this technique. This technique also allows the user to extinguish these flames.

You sir are stating that the words have to mean the same by a dictionary stand point but that is not a strict rule in anime and seeing they make up their own words and change certain words definitions, your logic on how it doesn't translate over is redundant.

@Bold all this time you still haven't explained what "Flame Control" is formed from. I know that that Flame Control AKA Kagutsuchi is a form of Enton and Enton has a few other abilities aswell. Also You stated Kagutsuchi is the Shape manipulation and I agree. But Yasaka Magata is a form of Enton. The point of me saying it wasn't a form of Kagutsuchi and is a form of Enton was suggested that you would include Kagutsuchi in the jutsu being formed. But it also suggested that Kagutsuchi is not solely what formed the jutsu. So saying that it's a form of Enton should of cleared the confusion, as seeing that Enton is the bases of what it is formed by, but I see it just caused more of a misunderstanding.

A good example would be Naruto's Rasenshuriken. Wind release is it's chakra nature. Wind release also has different names such as "Wind Style", and "Futon." Rasenshuriken is made from that chakra nature so it is a form of Wind release. This is a example you could apply to how "Flame Control" AKA Kagutsuchi is a form of Enton.

Also as a side note if you are referring "flame control" to "control of the flame" and not a technique or jutsu but just how he manipulates the flames. State it in you next response if you choose to do so, a long with the response to this.

Varrah · Jul 15, 2014

Definitions

Chakra is paranormal energy created by combining spiritual energy and physical energy at a set. [
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Chakra is contained within 361 nodes or tenketsu existing within and throughout the body.
The Tenketsu are nodes containing chakra within the body that are transmission throughout the body by the Keirakukei or the Inner Coils. [
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The Keirakukei/Inner Coils is a system of passages intimately interacting with every cell and organ in the body which allows chakra to travel throughout the body, be knitted, and manipulated into a myriad of configurations activated through Jutsu. [
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Hand Seals is the act of manipulating the tenketsu in the body to extract a set or sets of chakra necessary to produce the desired effect. It is one of the most common ways a person can form chakra. [
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Jutsu is the act of using chakra externally or internally by molding different ratios of physical energy and spiritual energy to create a supernatural effect on either the world itself or an individual or object of it. [
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The different types of effects that chakra entail are categorized as, Ninjutsu, Genjutsu, and Taijutsu; the subsections based of these jutsu are: Fūinjutsu, Juinjutsu, and Senjutsu.
This post will on be focusing on Ninjutsu.
Ninjutsu is the external use of chakra, techniques that physically affect the world.
Ninjutsu can be classified into two categories: environmental elemental jutsu and non-environmental-elemental jutsu.
Environmental elemental jutsu or elemental ninjutsu is jutsu whose effects vary from the simplicities of basic elements management, to the complexities of environment manipulation via shape transformation/nature transformation.
Non-environmental-elemental or non-elemental ninjutsu is jutsu whose effects vary from the simplicities of transformations and substitutions, to the complexities of medical ninjutsu.
Whereas Elemental Ninjutsu is any jutsu in which an individual takes their chakra and alters it into an environmental element: a product or substance of the Earth, Non-elemental Ninjutsu is any jutsu in which an individual takes their chakra and alters it into a property and characteristic that is not of an elemental of Earth: namely Yin and Yang.
The proportional kneading of physical and spiritual energies within the Keirakukei creates a set of chakra, which is then altered into an environmental element or non-environmental-element. There are five types of Environmental Elements:

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Katon is chakra kneaded in the Keirakukei or Inner Coils and altered into the disposition of Fire; it is one of the five basic elemental nature transformation and techniques of the same disposition are used and known under the same designation, Fire Release. [
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Fūton is chakra kneaded in the Keirakukei or Inner Coils and altered into the disposition of Wind; it is the second of the five basic elemental nature transformations, and techniques of the same disposition are used and known under the same designation, Wind Release. [
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Raiton is chakra kneaded in the Keirakukei or Inner Coils and altered into the disposition of Lighting; it is the third of the five basic elemental nature transformations, and techniques of the same disposition are used and known under the same designation, Lightning Release. [
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Doton is chakra kneaded in the Keirakukei or Inner Coils and altered into the disposition of Earth; it is the fourth of the five basic elemental nature transformations, and techniques of the same disposition are used and known under the same designation, Earth Release. [
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Suiton is chakra kneaded in the Keirakukei or Inner Coils and altered into the disposition of Water; it is the fifth of the five basic elemental nature transformations, and techniques of the same disposition are used and known under the same designation, Water Release. [
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Fire, Wind, Lighting, Earth, and Water are the five and among the basic types of elements out of the six Seishitsu Henka’s or Nature Transformations.
The sixth type of Seishitsu Henka or Nature Transformation is Yin and Yang. [11]
Seishitsu Henka is nature transformation.
Again—to regurgitate, an Elemental Ninjutsu is an Environmental Elements; and Seishitsu Henka’s/Nature Transformations is chakra, the physical and spiritual energies, sculpted into a set of chakra that alters chakras’ properties and characteristics to take upon the behavior and appearance of another substance or energy. This act of altering the properties and characteristics of chakra is usually within the middle and lower extremities of the Keirakukei, such as the hands, chest, mouth, and feet.
Keitai Henka is shape transformation.
Keitai Henka/Shape Transformation is chakra control with advancements; the potency of Keitai Henka greatly surpasses the chakra control of say Hand Seals; which while a form of manipulating the tenketsu it ultimately fails to provide the refinements that allows Keitai Henka to exert control over the attributes of chakra to create new techniques or jutsu. That is, unlike Hand Seals which are a form of chakra control, Keita Henka allows a person to control the attributes of chakra with refinements in a way that Hand Seals can never do.
Seishitsu Henka and Keitai Henka are the cornerstones of chakra that are necessary for the creation of new jutsu’s.

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Amaterasu is a Seishitsu Henka. [
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Kagutsuchi is Keitai Henka. [
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Enton is the chakra nature of Amaterasu; and thus, is the black flames of Amaterasu in a similar matter to how to Fūton, as the chakra nature Fūton: Rasengan, is designated as the Rasengan’s Seishitsu Henka and group within the class, Wind Release, alongside other techniques that have the same disposition. [
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Kagutsuchi is at times prefixed with Enton because it is a categorization of Enton. [
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Dōryoku is eye power.
Dōryoku’s are peculiar in nature because they manipulate the tenketsu around the eye to use jutsu.
Amaterasu is Sasuke’s left eye’s dōryoku.
Kagutsuchi is Sasuke’s right eye’s dōryoku.
Amaterasu is the ignition of amorphous Enton concentrically.
Kagutsuchi is the manipulation of Enton—this extends to extinguishing the flames as well. [
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___________________________________________

Of these definitions, it is concluded:

Kagutsuchi is used in tandem with Amaterasu.

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The user of just Amaterasu from what we know has two forms of attacks from the users line of sight.

Amaterasu ignites amorphous Enton concentrically; thus, as long as Enton is ignited amorphously yet concentrically it is Amaterasu’s within capabilities.

They can fire it constantly, Like a flamethrower, or the can shoot/cast it, like a fire ball.

The latter is the usual usage of Amaterasu. The former, to give a modern analogy, is Amaterasu being dragged; essentially Itachi is drag-shooting Amaterasu.

But their are restrictions. When you shoot/cast amaterasu, you can no longer extinguish the flame because it is not connected to it's user anymore.

Enton can be turned off if the Amaterasu user chooses to turn of the Seishitsu Henka. For example, Sasuke can turn on Chidori and turn it off if a situation calls for it. It is analogous to turning on and a light when it is dark, and turning it off when it is light or if you finished looking for something.

You can only extinguish the flame when you fire it constantly, like a flamethrower, while maintaining control of it.

Enton can be turned off by Amaterasu being its Seishitsu Henka. For example, Madara can use any Katon based jutsu and choose to turn it off when it no longer suites the situation. Itachi did not extinguish the Enton around Sasuke and his Orochimaru-style kawarimi; he merely chose to turn off the Seishitsu Henka in a matter comparable to the Madara example.

Example: is above when Itachi fired amaterasu until it burned away sasuke's fire jutsu then he stopped the flames by closing his eye. He used the amaterasu like a flamethrower until it burned away Sasuke's Jutsu. He still had control of the flame and therefore was able to stop it.

The error with your example is that it is not attributable to the situation because it disregards the authority Amaterasu gives over Enton as its Seishitsu Henka.

What Sasuke shows is the first account and only one to have Flame control. Sasuke is the only ninja to possess enton as we know of. Enton is used to manipulate the flames of amaterasu. Flame control is a form of Enton. Itachi does not have enton.

The scan you use to justify your claim of Sasuke having Kagutsuchi is true; however, your premises are ultimately unsubstantial because of their inability to correctly support your claim—Sasuke’s Kagutsuchi—and because it is a fallacy of presumption in the form of a sweeping generalized that misused the case of Itachi’s Amaterasu during the event of his fight with Sasuke.

As you see Sasuke was able to extinguish the black flames after having shot/cast it. Also he was able to extinguish them with his eyes open. As you can see enton allows it's user to reconnect, connect,and/or even stay connected to flames regardless of how amaterasu is used.

The power to extinguish Enton is the power of Sasuke’s right eye’s dōryoku. The notion of Enton allowing its user to reconnect, connect, and/or stay connected is fundamentally flawed because of its ignorance and its generalized assessment of Amaterasu.

Sasuke is not reconnecting to Enton or staying connecting to Enton in the matter you sat out to provide. Sasuke is merely using his right eye’s dōryoku in conjunction with his left eye’s dōryoku to utilized the Enton created by the Seishitsu Henka Amaterasu to exert control over the attributes of that chakra in a matter that will allow him to create new techniques or jutsu.

Whether fired constantly or shot/cast. Also Sasuke is able to even cast flames to a location that is not in his line of sight.

As that is the power of his right eye’s dōryoku. A power Itachi does not have.

Now I know that this only proves more that Sasuke has Enton, but the point I'm getting across is that Itachi had no enton, or flame control or even blaze release. He simply had Amaterasu. He could only extinguish flames through shutting his eye if he still had control of the flame. Once he cast/shoots it, he no longer has control and therefore is not able to extinguish it.

Now I know that this only proves more that Sasuke has Enton, but the point I'm getting across is that Itachi had no enton, or flame control or even blaze release. He simply had Amaterasu.

As Amaterasu is the Seishitsu Henka of Enton and Enton is the chakra nature of Amaterasu, both Sasuke and Itachi have Enton by virtue of being Amaterasu users; and as blaze release is Enton, again by being a user of Amaterasu, Itachi has blaze release which is Enton. Itachi does not have flame control or Kagutsuchi as that is the power of Sasuke’s right eye’s dōryoku.

He could only extinguish flames through shutting his eye if he still had control of the flame.

Itachi could not extinguish Enton as he does possess the power of Sasuke’s right eye’s dōryoku: Kagutsuchi. Itachi, however, can turn off Enton by turning off Amaterasu, its Seishitsu Henka, in a similar matter to how Madara can turn off any Katon based jutsu to cease the current outputted fire.

Once he cast/shoots it, he no longer has control and therefore is not able to extinguish it.

Itachi does not have this control or extinguishing ability because he does not possess Kagutsuchi. Furthermore; the notion of re-connection, connection, and/or prolonged connection is fundamentally flawed for its assessment of Amaterasu is pinned on a sweeping generalization misusing the individual case of Itachi’s Amaterasu in the event of his fight with Sasuke as a presumption for the groundwork of this interpretation; which, as I said before is unsubstantiated because its premises do not support the claim you are making.

Itachi and Sasuke put out the flames two different ways meaning that they were two different techniques. There's more but I'm getting tired. I hope this explains it well enough to those individuals.

While you have managed to conclude correctly that Itachi and Sasuke put out Enton with two different methods, the entirety of your post does not support this claim because of the incorrect assessment you made for Amaterasu and use as the basis for this thread; as such, the totality of this interpretation or the post itself is a non sequitur.

Troyg39 · Jul 16, 2014

Johndoesknowall said:
If you wish to use the wiki I shall use it also even though I don't rely on it 100% due to it being fan made. Some of it is based upon their opinion but some is also right and I'll understand if you don't want to agree with it.

Here:
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You'll see that when flame control is typed in it brings up "Blaze Release: Kagutsuchi." Now I've already explained that Blaze release has two other names Enton and Inferno Style. Even in the wiki when you type it in you will be able to see it right below the picture at the top in the name category:
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That means Enton, Blaze Release and Inferno Style are all the same thing. This we should agree on. You can keep your suggestions to yourself until you bring fact as I have.

Now back to the first link. When "Flame Control" is typed in "Kagutsuchi" is brought up because it is another name for it. You can also look in the name category to find it. This is anime and words that usually have different definitions can be used as the same thing because the series puts it that way. What matters is how the anime uses the word. So in this case Flame control and Kagutsuchi are used for the same thing, they are the same.

Here is the definition right from wiki when you type in Flame control.

Blaze Release: "Kagutsuchi" is a technique which applies Shape Transformation to the black flames of Amaterasu, allowing the user to manipulate them at will. In Sasuke's case, while Amaterasu is cast from his left eye, he uses his right eye to manipulate the flames. After entering its final form, Sasuke's Susanoo gained an orb of black flames, which serves as an alternate source of flames to manipulate with this technique. This technique also allows the user to extinguish these flames.

You sir are stating that the words have to mean the same by a dictionary stand point but that is not a strict rule in anime and seeing they make up their own words and change certain words definitions, your logic on how it doesn't translate over is redundant.

@Bold all this time you still haven't explained what "Flame Control" is formed from. I know that that Flame Control AKA Kagutsuchi is a form of Enton and Enton has a few other abilities aswell. Also You stated Kagutsuchi is the Shape manipulation and I agree. But Yasaka Magata is a form of Enton. The point of me saying it wasn't a form of Kagutsuchi and is a form of Enton was suggested that you would include Kagutsuchi in the jutsu being formed. But it also suggested that Kagutsuchi is not solely what formed the jutsu. So saying that it's a form of Enton should of cleared the confusion, as seeing that Enton is the bases of what it is formed by, but I see it just caused more of a misunderstanding.

A good example would be Naruto's Rasenshuriken. Wind release is it's chakra nature. Wind release also has different names such as "Wind Style", and "Futon." Rasenshuriken is made from that chakra nature so it is a form of Wind release. This is a example you could apply to how "Flame Control" AKA Kagutsuchi is a form of Enton.

Also as a side note if you are referring "flame control" to "control of the flame" and not a technique or jutsu but just how he manipulates the flames. State it in you next response if you choose to do so, a long with the response to this.

This may be where our disconnect is located. When I say "flame control", I am merely referring to the ability to control the flame in some form. I am not suggesting that Itachi has shape manipulation aka Kagutsuchi. I am only stating, just as I was before, that Itachi was our first experience with anyone controlling Amaterasu in any form. Varrah (the guy that just responded to you) did a much better job at making my own point. He even pointed out a few flaws in my own thinking.

I made it clear in my last post that if you could find a better summary other than the wiki, to bring it to the discussion so I will assume that you tried and couldn't come up with anything. I personally do not like to use the wiki either, but it was the most recognizable source I could find and that's the only reason I presented it. But I do assure you all summaries for Kagutsuchi are the same.

As you said when you type "Flame Control" in the search, Kagutsuchi comes up, but what you didn't say was the fact that it's not the only thing that comes up and "Flame Control" doesn't take you directly to Kagutsuchi's page. That is because Kagutsuchi, as I said, does not translate to "Flame Control" directly, in any language, definition, or explanation you can find. The only reason it comes up is because
English TV chose that as a term to better describe it. This, however, should not distract you from the obvious; when actually reading what Kagutsuchi is, it specifically notes that its is shape transformation of Amaterasu. Again, when I was saying "flame control", I was not referring to any particular technique, I was talking about any instance where the user of Amaterasu showed any form of control over the flame.

I'd also like to note that the phrase "flame control" isn't actually anywhere in Kagutsuchi's summary. It is only seen as the English TV phrase used in it's place (which we've already estabished isn't a definition for the word). But when you type "shape manipulation" in the wiki search, Shape Transformation is the first thing to come up, which is also a phrase that can be found in the very first sentence describing Kagutsuchi. So we know that this is what Kagutsuchi really is. Yes it's flame control, but specifically control through shape transformation. While this has yet to be seen, if there was a way to change Amaterasu's nature transformation

This is the reason I said the broad term "flame control" is better suited as a definition for Enton. As Varrah pointed out, Amaterasu and it's authority take precedent over Enton. Enton is merely manipulation (or control if you wish to use that term) over Amaterasu. I say Enton is flame control because Enton revolves around utilizing Amaterasu. So essentially Enton is control over the flame known as Amaterasu. Utilizing, manipulating, controlling, etc are all meaning the same thing with me. Kagutsuchi is just one of those weird techniques that parent other techniques through shape manipulation. But the key still being it has to be through shape manipulation. That is why I personally do not attribute Kagutsuchi to "flame control" as a definition because it better suits enton. It's still flame control of Amaterasu yes, but it is control through a specific means.

I guess the best example I can give is shadow clone jutsu vs multi shadow clone jutsu. MSCJ is still a form of the SCJ, but the definition for SCJ isn't specific enough to be a true definition for MSCJ, because you specifically need two or more in order for it to be considered "multi shadow clone". The same with Kagutsuchi, it is still flame control yes, but it specifically needs to be shape manipulation otherwise it isn't Kagutsuchi.

Beyond this point there really isn't much else for us to debate unless we just want to keep repeating the same info. Varrah has seemed to counter us both effectively on points we were both flawed on. But he did do a good job in highlighting some of the points I was trying to make as well. So I'll leave you too to discuss if that's what you all choose to do.

Furui Tokage · Jul 16, 2014

Enton is different - I agree

Johndoesknowall · Jul 16, 2014

Varrah said:
Definitions

Chakra is paranormal energy created by combining spiritual energy and physical energy at a set. [
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Chakra is contained within 361 nodes or tenketsu existing within and throughout the body.

The Tenketsu are nodes containing chakra within the body that are transmission throughout the body by the Keirakukei or the Inner Coils. [
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The Keirakukei/Inner Coils is a system of passages intimately interacting with every cell and organ in the body which allows chakra to travel throughout the body, be knitted, and manipulated into a myriad of configurations activated through Jutsu. [
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Hand Seals is the act of manipulating the tenketsu in the body to extract a set or sets of chakra necessary to produce the desired effect. It is one of the most common ways a person can form chakra. [
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Jutsu is the act of using chakra externally or internally by molding different ratios of physical energy and spiritual energy to create a supernatural effect on either the world itself or an individual or object of it. [
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The different types of effects that chakra entail are categorized as, Ninjutsu, Genjutsu, and Taijutsu; the subsections based of these jutsu are: Fūinjutsu, Juinjutsu, and Senjutsu.

This post will on be focusing on Ninjutsu.

Ninjutsu is the external use of chakra, techniques that physically affect the world.

Ninjutsu can be classified into two categories: environmental elemental jutsu and non-environmental-elemental jutsu.

Environmental elemental jutsu or elemental ninjutsu is jutsu whose effects vary from the simplicities of basic elements management, to the complexities of environment manipulation via shape transformation/nature transformation.

Non-environmental-elemental or non-elemental ninjutsu is jutsu whose effects vary from the simplicities of transformations and substitutions, to the complexities of medical ninjutsu.

Whereas Elemental Ninjutsu is any jutsu in which an individual takes their chakra and alters it into an environmental element: a product or substance of the Earth, Non-elemental Ninjutsu is any jutsu in which an individual takes their chakra and alters it into a property and characteristic that is not of an elemental of Earth: namely Yin and Yang.

The proportional kneading of physical and spiritual energies within the Keirakukei creates a set of chakra, which is then altered into an environmental element or non-environmental-element. There are five types of Environmental Elements:

___________________________________________

Katon is chakra kneaded in the Keirakukei or Inner Coils and altered into the disposition of Fire; it is one of the five basic elemental nature transformation and techniques of the same disposition are used and known under the same designation, Fire Release. [
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Fūton is chakra kneaded in the Keirakukei or Inner Coils and altered into the disposition of Wind; it is the second of the five basic elemental nature transformations, and techniques of the same disposition are used and known under the same designation, Wind Release. [
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Raiton is chakra kneaded in the Keirakukei or Inner Coils and altered into the disposition of Lighting; it is the third of the five basic elemental nature transformations, and techniques of the same disposition are used and known under the same designation, Lightning Release. [
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Doton is chakra kneaded in the Keirakukei or Inner Coils and altered into the disposition of Earth; it is the fourth of the five basic elemental nature transformations, and techniques of the same disposition are used and known under the same designation, Earth Release. [
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Suiton is chakra kneaded in the Keirakukei or Inner Coils and altered into the disposition of Water; it is the fifth of the five basic elemental nature transformations, and techniques of the same disposition are used and known under the same designation, Water Release. [
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___________________________________________

Fire, Wind, Lighting, Earth, and Water are the five and among the basic types of elements out of the six Seishitsu Henka’s or Nature Transformations.

The sixth type of Seishitsu Henka or Nature Transformation is Yin and Yang. [11]

Seishitsu Henka is nature transformation.

Again—to regurgitate, an Elemental Ninjutsu is an Environmental Elements; and Seishitsu Henka’s/Nature Transformations is chakra, the physical and spiritual energies, sculpted into a set of chakra that alters chakras’ properties and characteristics to take upon the behavior and appearance of another substance or energy. This act of altering the properties and characteristics of chakra is usually within the middle and lower extremities of the Keirakukei, such as the hands, chest, mouth, and feet.

Keitai Henka is shape transformation.

Keitai Henka/Shape Transformation is chakra control with advancements; the potency of Keitai Henka greatly surpasses the chakra control of say Hand Seals; which while a form of manipulating the tenketsu it ultimately fails to provide the refinements that allows Keitai Henka to exert control over the attributes of chakra to create new techniques or jutsu. That is, unlike Hand Seals which are a form of chakra control, Keita Henka allows a person to control the attributes of chakra with refinements in a way that Hand Seals can never do.

Seishitsu Henka and Keitai Henka are the cornerstones of chakra that are necessary for the creation of new jutsu’s.

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Amaterasu is a Seishitsu Henka. [
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Kagutsuchi is Keitai Henka. [
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Enton is the chakra nature of Amaterasu; and thus, is the black flames of Amaterasu in a similar matter to how to Fūton, as the chakra nature Fūton: Rasengan, is designated as the Rasengan’s Seishitsu Henka and group within the class, Wind Release, alongside other techniques that have the same disposition. [
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Kagutsuchi is at times prefixed with Enton because it is a categorization of Enton. [
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Dōryoku is eye power.

Dōryoku’s are peculiar in nature because they manipulate the tenketsu around the eye to use jutsu.

Amaterasu is Sasuke’s left eye’s dōryoku.

Kagutsuchi is Sasuke’s right eye’s dōryoku.

Amaterasu is the ignition of amorphous Enton concentrically.

Kagutsuchi is the manipulation of Enton—this extends to extinguishing the flames as well. [
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] — The special effects on the page, which are of the flames subsiding, and Sasuke's reactions and questions are indicators that the method to remove the flames were Kagutsuchi.

___________________________________________

Of these definitions, it is concluded:

Kagutsuchi is used in tandem with Amaterasu.

___________________________________________

Amaterasu ignites amorphous Enton concentrically; thus, as long as Enton is ignited amorphously yet concentrically it is Amaterasu’s within capabilities.

The latter is the usual usage of Amaterasu. The former, to give a modern analogy, is Amaterasu being dragged; essentially Itachi is drag-shooting Amaterasu.

Enton can be turned off if the Amaterasu user chooses to turn of the Seishitsu Henka. For example, Sasuke can turn on Chidori and turn it off if a situation calls for it. It is analogous to turning on and a light when it is dark, and turning it off when it is light or if you finished looking for something.

Enton can be turned off by Amaterasu being its Seishitsu Henka. For example, Madara can use any Katon based jutsu and choose to turn it off when it no longer suites the situation. Itachi did not extinguish the Enton around Sasuke and his Orochimaru-style kawarimi; he merely chose to turn off the Seishitsu Henka in a matter comparable to the Madara example.

The error with your example is that it is not attributable to the situation because it disregards the authority Amaterasu gives over Enton as its Seishitsu Henka.

The scan you use to justify your claim of Sasuke having Kagutsuchi is true; however, your premises are ultimately unsubstantial because of their inability to correctly support your claim—Sasuke’s Kagutsuchi—and because it is a fallacy of presumption in the form of a sweeping generalized that misused the case of Itachi’s Amaterasu during the event of his fight with Sasuke.

The power to extinguish Enton is the power of Sasuke’s right eye’s dōryoku. The notion of Enton allowing its user to reconnect, connect, and/or stay connected is fundamentally flawed because of its ignorance and its generalized assessment of Amaterasu.

Sasuke is not reconnecting to Enton or staying connecting to Enton in the matter you sat out to provide. Sasuke is merely using his right eye’s dōryoku in conjunction with his left eye’s dōryoku to utilized the Enton created by the Seishitsu Henka Amaterasu to exert control over the attributes of that chakra in a matter that will allow him to create new techniques or jutsu.

As that is the power of his right eye’s dōryoku. A power Itachi does not have.

As Amaterasu is the Seishitsu Henka of Enton and Enton is the chakra nature of Amaterasu, both Sasuke and Itachi have Enton by virtue of being Amaterasu users; and as blaze release is Enton, again by being a user of Amaterasu, Itachi has blaze release which is Enton. Itachi does not have flame control or Kagutsuchi as that is the power of Sasuke’s right eye’s dōryoku.

Itachi could not extinguish Enton as he does possess the power of Sasuke’s right eye’s dōryoku: Kagutsuchi. Itachi, however, can turn off Enton by turning off Amaterasu, its Seishitsu Henka, in a similar matter to how Madara can turn off any Katon based jutsu to cease the current outputted fire.

Itachi does not have this control or extinguishing ability because he does not possess Kagutsuchi. Furthermore; the notion of re-connection, connection, and/or prolonged connection is fundamentally flawed for its assessment of Amaterasu is pinned on a sweeping generalization misusing the individual case of Itachi’s Amaterasu in the event of his fight with Sasuke as a presumption for the groundwork of this interpretation; which, as I said before is unsubstantiated because its premises do not support the claim you are making.

While you have managed to conclude correctly that Itachi and Sasuke put out Enton with two different methods, the entirety of your post does not support this claim because of the incorrect assessment you made for Amaterasu and use as the basis for this thread; as such, the totality of this interpretation or the post itself is a non sequitur.

troyg39 said:
This may be where our disconnect is located. When I say "flame control", I am merely referring to the ability to control the flame in some form. I am not suggesting that Itachi has shape manipulation aka Kagutsuchi. I am only stating, just as I was before, that Itachi was our first experience with anyone controlling Amaterasu in any form. Varrah (the guy that just responded to you) did a much better job at making my own point. He even pointed out a few flaws in my own thinking.

I made it clear in my last post that if you could find a better summary other than the wiki, to bring it to the discussion so I will assume that you tried and couldn't come up with anything. I personally do not like to use the wiki either, but it was the most recognizable source I could find and that's the only reason I presented it. But I do assure you all summaries for Kagutsuchi are the same.

As you said when you type "Flame Control" in the search, Kagutsuchi comes up, but what you didn't say was the fact that it's not the only thing that comes up and "Flame Control" doesn't take you directly to Kagutsuchi's page. That is because Kagutsuchi, as I said, does not translate to "Flame Control" directly, in any language, definition, or explanation you can find. The only reason it comes up is because
English TV chose that as a term to better describe it. This, however, should not distract you from the obvious; when actually reading what Kagutsuchi is, it specifically notes that its is shape transformation of Amaterasu. Again, when I was saying "flame control", I was not referring to any particular technique, I was talking about any instance where the user of Amaterasu showed any form of control over the flame.

I'd also like to note that the phrase "flame control" isn't actually anywhere in Kagutsuchi's summary. It is only seen as the English TV phrase used in it's place (which we've already estabished isn't a definition for the word). But when you type "shape manipulation" in the wiki search, Shape Transformation is the first thing to come up, which is also a phrase that can be found in the very first sentence describing Kagutsuchi. So we know that this is what Kagutsuchi really is. Yes it's flame control, but specifically control through shape transformation. While this has yet to be seen, if there was a way to change Amaterasu's nature transformation

This is the reason I said the broad term "flame control" is better suited as a definition for Enton. As Varrah pointed out, Amaterasu and it's authority take precedent over Enton. Enton is merely manipulation (or control if you wish to use that term) over Amaterasu. I say Enton is flame control because Enton revolves around utilizing Amaterasu. So essentially Enton is control over the flame known as Amaterasu. Utilizing, manipulating, controlling, etc are all meaning the same thing with me. Kagutsuchi is just one of those weird techniques that parent other techniques through shape manipulation. But the key still being it has to be through shape manipulation. That is why I personally do not attribute Kagutsuchi to "flame control" as a definition because it better suits enton. It's still flame control of Amaterasu yes, but it is control through a specific means.

I guess the best example I can give is shadow clone jutsu vs multi shadow clone jutsu. MSCJ is still a form of the SCJ, but the definition for SCJ isn't specific enough to be a true definition for MSCJ, because you specifically need two or more in order for it to be considered "multi shadow clone". The same with Kagutsuchi, it is still flame control yes, but it specifically needs to be shape manipulation otherwise it isn't Kagutsuchi.

Beyond this point there really isn't much else for us to debate unless we just want to keep repeating the same info. Varrah has seemed to counter us both effectively on points we were both flawed on. But he did do a good job in highlighting some of the points I was trying to make as well. So I'll leave you too to discuss if that's what you all choose to do.

Honestly I don't even want to get into another argument. I do agree I went alittle far with my ideals and opinions, but that is the fun thing about Narutobase. To debate opinions and assumptions. All three of us have mixed facts with assumptions and honestly I have enjoyed the discussion. But I wish Kishi had been more specific about more things in his series.

I'm sure we'll debate again.

Furui Tokage said:
Enton is different - I agree

Thanks

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