[Discussion] Sasuke will not get PS.

[Kage Bumchin]

Hmm but the thing is... Itachi didn't have EMS so your logic is flawed

 

[BlinkST]

madara doesn't specialize in genjutsu. his specialty is in susano.
and no one except itachi have shown to control time itself in the genjutsu.

No evidence of that.

The databook description and Itachi's own words plainly state that Tsukuyomi's characteristics are not unique to him. They are a trait of the jutsu. It works to their specifications.

NINJUTSU; KEKKEI GENKAI; Tsukuyomi
User: Uchiha Itachi
Supplementary; Close range; Rank: none

Main text

Amidst the insight and hypnosis possessed by Sharingan, is a supreme genjutsu, born from the aforementioned hypnosis: Tsukuyomi. Originally, people on the face of the Earth live bound by limitations like time, gravity, and space; and how people exert their abilities within those restrictions is what separates the victors from the vanquished. But in the mental world where the caster drags their opponent, the Tsukuyomi jutsu gives them control over those very limitations!

Namely, this means inside the genjutsu, the physical world's common sense is completely irrelevant and opposing the caster is impossible. Somebody caught into the Tsukuyomi find themselves into a strange world of infinity, their fate entirely lying inside the caster's hands. Some time, they will undergo the torments of Hell, and some other time, they will be repeatedly shown a horrendous, hellish picture of agony and mayhem*, with no idea of when either of those will end. As a result, the poor prisoner can only wait until the collapse of their psyches...!! Even a body made of iron or the speed of light are powerless before this jutsu, which is the reason why it is feared as the most powerful.

Sharingan is the Kekkei Genkai of the clan labeled as the most powerful, the Uchiha clan. Even among those who have Sharingan, that jutsu cannot be operated without having Mangekyou, which is its culminating point. Concurrently, the only ones who can defeat Tsukuyomi are Sharingan possessors... And even then, exclusively the elite shinobi who have reached particularly high degrees of skillfulness. One could say this is truly a God-given jutsu solely allowed to those blessed with Uchiha blood and prodigious aptitudes.

Captions

-An inner hell as eternal as Heaven and Earth. The grip held onto the principles of all creation thoroughly annihilates one's heart and soul!!

-The ultimate doujutsu made possible only by Mangekyou Sharingan.

Picture comments

-The moment the adversary is exposed to Mangekyou Sharingan, a strange realm as they've never seen before extends before their eyes. In there, the world's principles themselves obey the caster's beck and call.

-Since attacks in the spiritual realm have no power to physically wound or kill, it bestows an unfathomable amount of mental damage.

-Only those of Uchiha blood... Does it mean only Sasuke has a chance to break a Tsukuyomi?

-The phenomena that happen inside of the mental realm are entirely the caster's to command. Which is to say, the images shown or the actions taken can be changed according to the opponent in order to yield maximum efficiency.*阿鼻叫喚 (abikyoukan) translates as "agonizing cries", or "pandemonium". It's also a specific name for a couple of hellish realms in Buddhism. Try Wikipedia or Onmark Productions for better info.

You blindly thought infinite tsukiyomi is better genjutsu then itachi's tsukiyomi but it isn't.

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you can clearly see, madara cannot perform his infinite tsukiyomi without getting connected to gedou mazo.
that is why he needs the juubi to use infinite tsukiyomi.

He needs the Juubi, because he intends to cast it over the planet. It's a superior jutsu by default.

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It's like comparing the Kyubi's Bijudama and the Juubi's, or Kakashi's Raikiri and Sasuke's Kirin. It is simply far ahead of anything a normal human is capable of doing. The point is that despite such a massive difference in power, Madara's proposed genjutsu is not called "Perfect Tsukuyomi". It's "Infinite Tsukuyomi".

Chapter 560. The very first skill he uses is Katon...and it's HUGE.

He used a Katon jutsu. I'm not sure what your point is supposed to be.

 

[Fantastic Mr Fox]

IF sasuke work more in his genjutsu , still he wont be able to get perfect tsukiyomi, because kishi don't want it this way.
You know sometimes it is born talent. Everyone have their own specialty.
Look hard work sure helps but if something isn't your specialty , you can't do much about it.
Sasuke must have worked hard in genjutsu , that is why, he could defeat itachi's tsukiyomi and obtained tsukiyomi after getting MS.
But Sasuke's specialty is amaterasu, that is why he could not only summon it, but extinguish and control it. He mastered amaterasu.

First, you can't say what Kishi wants, because you're not Kishi.
Second, Saskue is good at Amaterasu because he spent all his time as a kid practicing the katon jutsu, which is very similar (since we're talking about creating balls of fire here)
Third, you're forgetting about the time factor. Itachi is 5 years older than saskue. That's 5 years of practice, which is why Itachi's tsukiyomi is stronger. Who even know how old Madara is?? He's had decades upon decades to master susano. That's why his is more powerful. NOT because he's born with it.
Respectfully, you're wrong. Yes, people are born with talent. They UNDERSTAND certain things better. But that doesn't mean others can't achieve the same great heights through practice. Let me remind you that Beethoven was deaf.

 

[Frikid]

Remember the t-shirt OVA, on which Naruto y suppossedly having his last match vs sasuke?
I believe they will actually exchange a lot of punches, i woulkdn´t know how to explain why i think trhat will happen but it´s quite a hunch. kishi sort of respects or shows signs of it towards his fav characters by giving them long punch fight, very taijutsu style

didn't watch it. =/
but since its ova , it is supposed to be non-cannon. And if you read the manga, you would see most of the chapter were DBZ,you know bijju dama spam, bijju beam spam so i don't think kishi really likes taijutsu.

Hmm but the thing is... Itachi didn't have EMS so your logic is flawed

Even without EMS, his tsukiyomi was superior than madara or sasuke.

No evidence of that.

The databook description and Itachi's own words plainly state that Tsukuyomi's characteristics are not unique to him. They are a trait of the jutsu. It works to their specifications.



He needs the Juubi, because he intends to cast it over the planet. It's a superior jutsu by default.
Onoki easily broke the genjutsu madara used on raikage, say if itachi was the one who put genjutsu on raikage, raikage would have received days of pain... and raikage wouldn't be able to stand after that...

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It's like comparing the Kyubi's Bijudama and the Juubi's, or Kakashi's Raikiri and Sasuke's Kirin. It is simply far ahead of anything a normal human is capable of doing. The point is that despite such a massive difference in power, Madara's proposed genjutsu is not called "Perfect Tsukuyomi". It's "Infinite Tsukuyomi".

Its quality over quantity. madara can't control time in his genjutsu, itachi can.
madara says he need the juubi to cast it on multiple people While itachi can actually cast his genjutsu on multiple people, even shikaku said so.
And again don't even bother comparing itachi and madara in terms of genjutsu, its like comparing amaterasu and normal katon, function is the same but effect of amaterasu is much deeper(same as effect of itachi's tsukiyomi is much deeper).

First, you can't say what Kishi wants, because you're not Kishi.
Second, Saskue is good at Amaterasu because he spent all his time as a kid practicing the katon jutsu, which is very similar (since we're talking about creating balls of fire here)
Third, you're forgetting about the time factor. Itachi is 5 years older than saskue. That's 5 years of practice, which is why Itachi's tsukiyomi is stronger. Who even know how old Madara is?? He's had decades upon decades to master susano. That's why his is more powerful. NOT because he's born with it.
Respectfully, you're wrong. Yes, people are born with talent. They UNDERSTAND certain things better. But that doesn't mean others can't achieve the same great heights through practice. Let me remind you that Beethoven was deaf.

@bolded part,
sorry to say, but this is a harsh reality. some people just can't do certain things.you cannot expect naruto to work hard in genjutsu and surpass sasuke in it, because it isn't his thing.
When itachi used tsukiyomi on kakashi, he was same age as sasuke so you can't say that.(and itachi perfected his tsukiyomi most probably around age of 13-16.)
Also Age means nothing in naruto, obito a student, went toe to toe with his sensei at just age of 14 or 15. Current naruto and sasuke surpass all of their sensei.

 

[BlinkST]

Onoki easily broke the genjutsu madara used on raikage, say if itachi was the one who put genjutsu on raikage, raikage would have received days of pain... and raikage wouldn't be able to stand after that...

You're not the author, so don't waste my time with imaginary scenarios, or act as if Itachi's genjutsu has never been broken by a character.

Its quality over quantity. madara can't control time in his genjutsu, itachi can.

The manga and databook made it clear that the "Tsukuyomi world" is a jutsu that bends to the will of the user, and Itachi's control was never stated to be something unique to him. Excuse me when I say the Einstein in me would have to assume that if Madara intends to cast an Infinite Tsukuyomi supported by the Juubi's chakra, then that by definition means he has control over the "time".

madara says he need the juubi to cast it on multiple people While itachi can actually cast his genjutsu on multiple people, even shikaku said so.

Madara needs the Juubi and the satellite to cast his genjutsu over the planet. There's a big difference between casting genjutsu over a few people VS. 6 billion or so.

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Casting genjutsu over multiple people is something even Kakashi can do.

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Do not waste my time with obviously flimsy "arguments".

 

[Floydical]

First of all, Madara has not been confirmed to have Amaterasu or Tsukyomi. We also know for a fact that Sasuke does not have Tsukyomi, since he did not use it when freeing Itachi from Kabuto's genjutsu like Itachi did.

Second, Madara referred to the use and legend of Susanoo to be attached to more than one person. He stated that "legend says that once you see PS you die". This is something that gives indication that it extends past him and is not unique to him.

Lastly, we have seen vast improvements and changes to Sasuke's Susanoo over hundreds of chapters. There is very little chance, imo, that his Susanoo will stop evolving entirely. It will obviously get more powerful, but not likely as powerful as Madara's got.

 

[BlinkST]

First of all, Madara has not been confirmed to have Amaterasu or Tsukyomi.

The description of Susanoo in the databook would stipulate that Madara is in possession of the two required techniques.

We also know for a fact that Sasuke does not have Tsukyomi, since he did not use it when freeing Itachi from Kabuto's genjutsu like Itachi did.

What that shows is that Itachi was being over-protective of Sasuke as usual, and it was not necessary to use Tsukuyomi to begin with. Unless you think that generic genjutsu is just as powerful as Tsukuyomi, as they both accomplished the same task.

Second, Madara referred to the use and legend of Susanoo to be attached to more than one person. He stated that "legend says that once you see PS you die". This is something that gives indication that it extends past him and is not unique to him.

The same has been indicated of Tsukuyomi [When Kakashi fought Itachi] and Amaterasu [When Sasuke fought Itachi].

 

[Varrah]

Strongly disagree, Masashi has been setting up Sasuke to manipulate Susanoo: an enormous chakra construction, in a similar fashion to how he applies Keitai Henka to Chidori and Amaterasu—which he created new and various techniques derived from these abilities. [

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][

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]

One can already imagine the abilities of his Eien no Mangekyō Sharingan, and the conjunctions of other techniques: such as Tsukuyomi, supplementing his other abilities.


And as far as Tsukuyomi is concerned, Susanoo would suggests Madara has it.

*insert obvious scans and the likes*​

 

[Frikid]

You're not the author, so don't waste my time with imaginary scenarios, or act as if Itachi's genjutsu has never been broken by a character.


The manga and databook made it clear that the "Tsukuyomi world" is a jutsu that bends to the will of the user, and Itachi's control was never stated to be something unique to him. Excuse me when I say the Einstein in me would have to assume that if Madara intends to cast an Infinite Tsukuyomi supported by the Juubi's chakra, then that by definition means he has control over the "time".


Madara needs the Juubi and the satellite to cast his genjutsu over the planet. There's a big difference between casting genjutsu over a few people VS. 6 billion or so.

Spoiler

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Casting genjutsu over multiple people is something even Kakashi can do.

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I will keep this simple.

Madara requires gedou to cast genjutsu on whole earth, without it he cannot obviously do that, so it isn't the best example to prove his genjutsu as better.

"ïnfinite" tsukiyomi does not mean that madara can control time in his tsukiyomi, it simply shows, that juubi has huge amounts of chakra that is why it can make that genjutsu go on forever.
(well it isn't practically possible for a genjutsu to be "ön" forever, but i think juubi can replenish more chakra than the chakra madara uses while the genjutsu is "on"")

It has never been stated by madara or anyone else, that he can control time in his genjutsu or to be more accurate, tsukiyomi.

Madara was famous in his time, and even now , people get afraid when his name is involved in a plan. But still he was never known for his genjutsu , he was known for his susano though, it was said that anyone who has seen it dies.

One more thing i want to point out is that, remember when shikaku was told that random people are attacking the alliance, he first thought that itachi is making them do it with genjutsu.
Now the point is,according to his knowledge, madara was also alive at that point of time but still the first person that came to shikaku's mind was itachi.

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By this, we can clearly see, itachi was known for his genjutsu, and when it comes to genjutsu, the first guy that comes to mind is itachi and NOT madara himself.
--
Also When madara attacked raikage with his genjutsu, raikage quickly realized that he was under a genjutsu despite of not being a sensor and onoki break him out of it fairly easily.

IT took two people who were medical ninjas, to break naruto out of a regular genjutsu casted by 30% itachi.And also naruto never even realized it , till itachi made it ridiculously obvious.

Your move now .
----
Well i have posted more than enough evidence to prove why itachi is superior in genjutsu and why he have the upper hand, when it comes to tsukiyomi.
I think i covered all the points but i would recheck it later..
remind me if i missed something out...
And oh yea, please do not talk about wasting time, since you are on discussion site of a manga .
its like saying "don't waste my time" ön Facebook , lol.


And @varrah, will respond soon.

Strongly disagree, Masashi has been setting up Sasuke to manipulate Susanoo: an enormous chakra construction, in a similar fashion to how he applies Keitai Henka to Chidori and Amaterasu—which he created new and various techniques derived from these abilities. [

You must be registered for see links

][

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]

One can already imagine the abilities of his Eien no Mangekyō Sharingan, and the conjunctions of other techniques: such as Tsukuyomi, supplementing his other abilities.
​

Look i am saying sasuke isn't gonna obain PS aka perfect susano.
He would surely get susanoo upgrades, but it wont be really susano upgrades, like he would get amaterasu sword/shield and some other OP weapon/thing, but it can't be considered as perfect susano , since there is only one PS, which is madara's.
And these upgrades would NOT reflect his mastery at susano but more of his mastery at other things like amaterasu.

And here is what kishi shows us first time we see Sasuke's EMS :

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​

 

[Varrah]

Look i am saying sasuke isn't gonna obain PS aka perfect susano.
He would surely get susanoo upgrades, but it wont be really susano upgrades, like he would get amaterasu sword/shield and some other OP weapon/thing, but it can't be considered as perfect susano , since there is only one PS, which is madara's.
And these upgrades would NOT reflect his mastery at susano but more of his mastery at other things like amaterasu.

And here is what kishi shows us first time we see Sasuke's EMS :

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The definition of Perfect Susano'o can be alter to fit its state. Sasuke manipulating Susano'o, a chakra construction, in a potentially more sophisticated design than Madara's does signify his mastery of the technique.

It's just a matter of perceptual impressions of quality. ​

 

[TurrinB]

I like the idea but I don't think that's the direction Kishi is going.

 

[BlinkST]

I will keep this simple.

Madara requires gedou to cast genjutsu on whole earth, without it he cannot obviously do that, so it isn't the best example to prove his genjutsu as better.

It's not a matter of if Madara is a better genjutsu user. It's a matter of Infinite Tsukuyomi being better than plain old Tsukuyomi.

"ïnfinite" tsukiyomi does not mean that madara can control time in his tsukiyomi, it simply shows, that juubi has huge amounts of chakra that is why it can make that genjutsu go on forever.

Madara is in control. The genjutsu is shaped by his will. He gets to decide how long it lasts. To "argue" that him using an infinite genjutsu does not mean he has control over it's time, is LOL worthy.

It has never been stated by madara or anyone else, that he can control time in his genjutsu or to be more accurate, tsukiyomi.

Then you are either willfully ignorant or lack critical thinking. Period.

Madara was famous in his time, and even now , people get afraid when his name is involved in a plan. But still he was never known for his genjutsu

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You are known for making up lies.

he was known for his susano though, it was said that anyone who has seen it dies.

He was the one who said that. The Gokage obviously did not know about the perfect Susanoo or his other powers.

One more thing i want to point out is that, remember when shikaku was told that random people are attacking the alliance, he first thought that itachi is making them do it with genjutsu.
Now the point is,according to his knowledge, madara was also alive at that point of time but still the first person that came to shikaku's mind was itachi.

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That's obviously because Obito himself was never at the frontlines.

Also When madara attacked raikage with his genjutsu, raikage quickly realized that he was under a genjutsu despite of not being a sensor and onoki break him out of it fairly easily.

IT took two people who were medical ninjas, to break naruto out of a regular genjutsu casted by 30% itachi.And also naruto never even realized it , till itachi made it ridiculously obvious.

<<Snipped other nonsense>>

Now you're actually comparing Itachi and Madara? In case you forgot, Itachi claimed Madara was an exceptional individual, and his master.

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And the hilarious part? It wasn't even Madara. It was Obito.

 

[Frikid]

MY arguments in red.

It's not a matter of if Madara is a better genjutsu user. It's a matter of Infinite Tsukuyomi being better than plain old Tsukuyomi. .

And you are forgetting the fact that it requires juubi's assistance in order to do that jutsu. Which makes it useless to compare it with itachi's tsukiyomi

Madara is in control. The genjutsu is shaped by his will. He gets to decide how long it lasts. To "argue" that him using an infinite genjutsu does not mean he has control over it's time, is LOL worthy.

You don't say?
Oh thank you for telling me that it depends on caster's will when to end a genjutsu. But the point still stands that he don't have control over time IN his genjutsu.
Itachi made one second in real life look like 72 hours in his genjutsu.

Then you are either willfully ignorant or lack critical thinking. Period.

Neither ignorant, nor lack critical thinking.
I believe in manga facts, and never ever i heard any praise or hype , about madara's genjutsu.
and When madara showed it by using on obito, i realized itachi did it way better by atleast controlling time , and he don't even need to get stuck to mazou.

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You are known for making up lies.

IT's Madara they are so scared of. Not the genjutsu itself.And Atleast not when he broke someone out of it in one second.

He was the one who said that. The Gokage obviously did not know about the perfect Susanoo or his other powers.

Onoki disagrees. He have fought madara once , and he know about his abilities , but not PS though.

That's obviously because Obito himself was never at the frontlines.

Ao and shikaku slapped on madara's face , by saying only itachi can do that .
When you are in a war, you have to count for every possibility, and shikaku does that very well, yet the first person which comes to his mind is itachi, simply because he is indeed better in genjutsu than any other on the battlefield.
Kishi made it crystal clear when he made shikaku and Ao say that.
And Madara was AT frontlines, because at the same night, he hopped in with something huge...

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Now you're actually comparing Itachi and Madara? In case you forgot, Itachi claimed Madara was an exceptional individual, and his master.

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And the hilarious part? It wasn't even Madara. It was Obito.

Heh.In terms of genjutsu, yes i am comparing them.
Itachi lied his whole life, and it was sasuke who he was talking. I think he lied to sasuke the most. What makes you think this is an exception?
Also the same guy who he was praising said that if he wasn't able to hide some secrets from itachi , he would be DEAD.
And you didn't really countered my point,which means you agree at the last one?

 

[Kinoshita Hideyoshi]

I thought he had complete susano'o because of his use of rinnegan. I mean he had susano'o already but rinnegan made it complete that's what i had thought.
edit: talking about Madara of course.

 

[Frikid]

I thought he had complete susano'o because of his use of rinnegan. I mean he had susano'o already but rinnegan made it complete that's what i had thought.
edit: talking about Madara of course.

Madara have used PS , that is why he said, who ever sees it dies.
While he got rinnegan at the brink of his death.
So rinnegan isn't involved in perfect susano.

 

[Kinoshita Hideyoshi]

Hmm forgot about some of the details. Also do you think Sasuke will learn some forbidden sharingan jutsu?

 

[Frikid]

Hmm forgot about some of the details. Also do you think Sasuke will learn some forbidden sharingan jutsu?

no i don't there are anymore forbidden sharingan jutsus left to show.I think he would learn a completely new doujutsu.

 

[Sarutobi Sasuke]

If Sasuke fights Naruto, he'll need a form that can counter Naruto's huge perfect Bijuu form (Kurama Style). Kinda like at the end of a Power Rangers episode where you have two Godzilla-size guy's fighting. Madara stated something about his "perfect" Susanoo having power comparable to a Bijuu (or something like that) which makes the Susanoo with stabilised chakra the most likely weapon for a "Power Rangers" battle. Also, the old sage frog's prophesy kinda cements Naruto & Sasuke's encounter.

 

[KevinPJH]

Very nice find man! Keep up the good work!

 

[Deidera]

You gave good reasons on why Itachi and Sasuke are perfect in certain ocular powers and weaker in others.But then,you didn't give a reason on why Madara has PS,what made Madara to have PS ? Could it be pain?evil ?

Alt.way of looking at this?
since it is said in the manga that you need both Tsukiyomi and Amaterasu to awaken Susasno'o,then:
Tsukiyomi:Genjustsu
Amaterasu:"Fire release:
Perfect Susano'o:Balance or perfection of both?

What you said could also mean Madara has balance in using both or he can use PT & PA that's why he can use PS
But then,if Sasuke has balance in using both his Amaterasu and Tsukiyomi instead of having a tendency of leaning on the former,then there might be a chance for Sasuke to get PS.

Sasuke getting the PS and or not getting is not something that is definite.

Bottom line is,we don't know what Sasuke has in store for us with his EMS .
Nothing should be ruled out.