Sasuke: True "Shadow" of the Leaf (first of two threads)

[Lost Woods Denizen]

This will be the first thread of two describing the difference between 火影 (hokage, fire shadow) and display using facts that Sasuke is the true "fire's shadow" of the hidden leaf village, and that Naruto himself is the fire. In other words, they cannot possible exist without one another (fire will ALWAYS create its OWN shadow) and can never defeat one another. This thread will focus on the "shadow" part, or Sasuke's inability to be controlled by anyone, even Naruto.

Sasuke is a character that most Naruto fans interpret as simply a traitor of the village driven by revenge, but I will explain to you that Sasuke is nothing more than the purest form of the darkness within the leaf villages ORIGINAL shadow to the fire, Tobirama and Madara. In other words, Sasuke is meant to be interpreted as the greatest "ninja genius" in the leaf. Tobirama was the original advisor to the first kage, Hashirama, so he began the path as the leaf's darkness. Tobirama would be the village's top authority's right hand man, and would basically know every dirty secret. When his brother the "fire" died, he became the next leader of the village. He had to be more intelligent just to keep up with his empowered brother, but he proved it by creating possibly the three greatest jutsu to ever come out of the leaf; the shadow clone, the hiraishin, and the edo tensei. All forbidden class jutsu (the hiraishin was not so much forbidden in as much as hard to decipher and hoarded for profit by Minato.) Tobirama was the genius and he had students, one of them including Hiruzen. However Hiruzen was also taught by Hashirama and inherited the "fire" role from his teachings, so Hiruzen will be in the Naruto thread. Tobirama's other student inherited the "shadow" position against Hiruzen's "fire;" Danzo. Danzo therefore had to become the next shadow genius. He then passed it down to Orochimaru, and Orochimaru was the "shadow" of his generation (Jiraiya being the "fire".) Orochimaru was another genius and he passed it down to Sasuke.

Are you seeing what I am doing here? I am showing how you cannot hate Sasuke because he is simply the mixing pot of all of the "shadows" of the leaf village. In other words, he has only the good parts from each of them. He has Tobirama's ingenuity with jutsu creation (function over finesse, yet they still come out looking incredible,) Danzo's ingenuity with moving humans as pieces (either through their dark charisma, or their illusion casting eyes *shrug*,) Orochimaru's pure genius for grasping scientific/material concepts (even if you manage to absorb an immortal snake, would YOU know how to biologically utilize its powers to the point of being able to shed your body?) and also the penultimate goal of Orochimaru, the rinnegan. Orochimaru wanted the sharingan, yes, but if that was the case why would he not pocket any when he was experimenting on Danzo's arm? No Orochimaru really wants the rinnegan, because he wants to learn all jutsu and be immortal. The sharingan was just something to pass the time copying all the jutsu he could while he waited for the rinnegan (which allows you to use any jutsu more of less.) Sasuke has both of these eyes, which means he is a visual megaman if he wants to be. He can look at virtually any attack, copy it with his right eye, then immediately use it against you because of his left eye (thinking about it that way is pretty awesome..) He is now wandering the world. If you think that he is simply some jounin under Naruto, you would be mistaken. He is the Tobirama Madara mix (I shorten it as "Tobidara" *suspenseful music*,) the "true shadow" of the leaf village to Naruto's "fire" of the leaf (will of fire, will be explained in his thread.)

Tobirama did whatever he wanted on the sly when Hashirama was the hokage, Danzo did it better by doing whatever he wanted on the sly when Hiruzen was was the hokage (they are not even related like Tobirama and Hashirama were), Orochimaru did it EVEN better by doing it on the sly when Hiruzen was there,Jiraiya was there, AND Minato was there) (two hokages and a hokage candidate that declined.)..What do you think Sasuke is doing with only Naruto and Shikamaru to "officially tell him what to do?" The answer is, whatever he wants. But, like everyone one of his fellow shadows, he does it for the leaf. Tobirama loved the leaf. Danzo loved the leaf. Orochimaru came back to help the leaf. And Sasuke brought back the latter to then further go on to making him bring back the former, and being the sole reason EITHER of those men could assist the leaf in the fourth ninja world war. For the leaf. Sasuke is the genius true shadow of the leaf, and Naruto cannot beat him again, because Naruto is the fire to Sasuke's shadow and I will explain in the next thread why Sasuke cannot beat Naruto ever again. This thread might appeal more to Sasuke fans.

What do you think?

 

[Lost Woods Denizen]

What an essay...

It was indeed rather long worded, but thank you for the read. I wrote this thread for Naruto fans in mind, giving them a different perspective on Sasuke. I do not think that it is necessary to only be able to like Naruto if you hate on Sasuke, because that is insulting their favorite character and his life choices. Remember, Naruto chose SASUKE to be his rival, his goal to overcome to recognize himself as "the strongest." That enough should speak enough to show that Sasuke is indeed a character of worth, and the fact that Sasuke also (eventually) reciprocated the feeling is praise enough to Naruto himself.

What do you think?

 

[Gagster]

The hell are you talking about, Tobirama was nothing like Orochimaru. There's nothing to suggest Tobirama did anything against Hashirama's orders when he was Hokage. Orochimaru wanted the uchiha body, along with the eyes, he also had no idea the rinnegan was real.
You're theory leaves out Minato who was just as much as a genius as the rest of them, yet had no adviser.Also what makes you think Sasuke is a Jonin? He's just doing missions for Naruto, nothing more.

 

[Six Paths]

Magnificent way of thinking, and I surely agree with it. The Hokage position, cannot be standing alone, without having the shadow, to deal with the business which the hokage simply can't attend, or hear because of his/her status. In another way, they are there to protect the villages in the dark, while the Hokage resides in the light. Sasuke's current position, is very well the "shadow" while Naruto deals with the matters in the "Light". It is a coexistence between light and Dark, tightly connecting with Yin-Yang as well.

Very, very well done. +Rep!

 

[Lost Woods Denizen]

The hell are you talking about, Tobirama was nothing like Orochimaru. There's nothing to suggest Tobirama did anything against Hashirama's orders when he was Hokage. Orochimaru wanted the uchiha body, along with the eyes, he also had no idea the rinnegan was real.
You're theory leaves out Minato who was just as much as a genius as the rest of them, yet had no adviser.Also what makes you think Sasuke is a Jonin? He's just doing missions for Naruto, nothing more.

I disagree, Tobirama himself was ONCE the darkness of the leaf himself, namely when his brother Hashirama was the "fire." Are you suggesting that it was Hashirama that urged Tobirama to dig up Madara's body and research his eye? Then research the Uchiha clan in general to find out the secrets behind said eye? And did Hashirama NOT say that he was against edo tensei (Tobirama made), a jutsu which involves sacrificing living humans to bring back indestructible ninja corpses? These are just parts of the shadows hidden behind the fire in the leaf village.

Minato was in the "fire" thread that I will post later for the Naruto thread. He is not part of the shadow, and in his time Orochimaru AND Danzo were still alive. THEY were doing stuff under his nose while still posing outwardly as "clean leaf ninja." Ne members much?

And I am not saying that Sasuke is a jounin. Quite the contrary I believe that he is beyond the point of needing something like a rank in the ninja world at large, and in the leaf village in particular. The whole world knows who he is and what he can do. He IS also just doing missions for Naruto, but its more like Naruto assigned him missions far away to publicly excuse Sasuke for going and coming whenever he wants. Sasuke is a shadow Jiraiya of sorts.

What do you think?

 

[Gagster]

I disagree, Tobirama himself was ONCE the darkness of the leaf himself, namely when his brother Hashirama was the "fire." Are you suggesting that it was Hashirama that urged Tobirama to dig up Madara's body and research his eye? Then research the Uchiha clan in general to find out the secrets behind said eye? And did Hashirama NOT say that he was against edo tensei (Tobirama made), a jutsu which involves sacrificing living humans to bring back indestructible ninja corpses? These are just parts of the shadows hidden behind the fire in the leaf village.

Minato was in the "fire" thread that I will post later for the Naruto thread. He is not part of the shadow, and in his time Orochimaru AND Danzo were still alive. THEY were doing stuff under his nose while still posing outwardly as "clean leaf ninja." Ne members much?

And I am not saying that Sasuke is a jounin. Quite the contrary I believe that he is beyond the point of needing something like a rank in the ninja world at large, and in the leaf village in particular. The whole world knows who he is and what he can do. He IS also just doing missions for Naruto, but its more like Naruto assigned him missions far away to publicly excuse Sasuke for going and coming whenever he wants. Sasuke is a shadow Jiraiya of sorts.

What do you think?

It's always been normal to perform Autopsies on dead ninja. You also are assuming where he got his information. Tobirama said himself that he had friends in the Uchiha, they probably told him. Also he never completed Edo-tensei , it's also implied Tobirama never used it by his surprise when Orochimaru summoned him.
Besides that, who was his "shadow" then when he became Hokage?

Orochimaru was a rouge ninja when Minato became Hokage, Danzo also stopped his experiments by then. There was nothing going on in the Leaf village without Minato's knowledge while he was Kage.

But Sasuke doesn't go and come whenever he wants, he's been a continuous string of unsubscribed missions for at least 10 years. There is no possible way for you to assume that these missions have something to do with the leaf village and are something other shinobi couldn't do.

 

[Lost Woods Denizen]

Magnificent way of thinking, and I surely agree with it. The Hokage position, cannot be standing alone, without having the shadow, to deal with the business which the hokage simply can't attend, or hear because of his/her status. In another way, they are there to protect the villages in the dark, while the Hokage resides in the light. Sasuke's current position, is very well the "shadow" while Naruto deals with the matters in the "Light". It is a coexistence between light and Dark, tightly connecting with Yin-Yang as well.

Very, very well done. +Rep!

Thank you very much, and I am glad that you can understand the kind of existence that Naruto and Sasuke are to one another, and how inyou in the manga is truly being portrayed as. Did fire or the shadow come first? From the moment a light was in existence there existed a shadow representing the areas not yet illuminated. From the exact same moment. That flame and that shadow have always existed together, and can only be called existing if they have one another (a flame without a shadow is a hologram, and a shadow without a light cannot exist on a means of dictionary definition.)

In terms of the two characters, Sasuke is an existence that, despite his power cannot kill Naruto, and Naruto is an existence that, thanks to his ninshuu inheritance (cooperation), cannot be killed by Sasuke. Just like fire and shadow, they cannot exist without one another.

What do you think?

 

[Lost Woods Denizen]

It's always been normal to perform Autopsies on dead ninja. You also are assuming where he got his information. Tobirama said himself that he had friends in the Uchiha, they probably told him. Also he never completed Edo-tensei , it's also implied Tobirama never used it by his surprise when Orochimaru summoned him.
Besides that, who was his "shadow" then when he became Hokage?

Orochimaru was a rouge ninja when Minato became Hokage, Danzo also stopped his experiments by then. There was nothing going on in the Leaf village without Minato's knowledge while he was Kage.

But Sasuke doesn't go and come whenever he wants, he's been a continuous string of unsubscribed missions for at least 10 years. There is no possible way for you to assume that these missions have something to do with the leaf village and are something other shinobi couldn't do.

Yes, perhaps it is normal to perform autopsies on corpses, but it is not normal to use another living body to bring said corpse back to life. Tobirama did complete the edo tensei, and even BRAGGED to Orochimaru saying "You can't control me, I invented this jutsu *Orochimaru controls him*" How does one stumble upon the answer to a jutsu that requires a human sacrifice? There was most certainly unorthodox experiments going on beneath Tobirama's house. And why not? He INVENTED the infrastructure and curriculum of the entire village, so he certainly could have built himself a lab under his house "off the maps." This is not bashing the character, it gives it a richer substance.

Orochimaru left the village while under Hiruzen's REINSTATED tenure (there was a gaiden for Kakashi last year, explained his and Yamato's backgrounds. I suggest you watch it.) And Danzo was doing things under Minato's watch. He was the supplier of FUNDING for Orochimaru (and his many secret labs), because his situation was even more precarious with Minato around. He knew that Minato was a genius, and I believe so as well. This is not bashing Minato, this is explaining that Orochimaru and Danzo were just that good. You don't always have to best someone to keep that someone from besting you. Naruto and Sasuke surely proved that paradox true by now.

I do not assume they are missions for the leaf village OR that they are missions someone else could not do. You thinking that proves that you think Sasuke could do missions outside of the village's interest, ergo proving that Naruto can't make input on said mission, ergo Sasuke is moving on him own whims outside of Naruto's control. I was just saying that if Sasuke really wanted to be home, he would be, and he chooses not to be, doing whatever he wants (apparently mapping the entire land of fire's forests again after destroying so much of it in his fight against Naruto.)

What do you think?

 

[Gagster]

You're assuming too much on Tobirama's part. He himself declared the jutsu Taboo, there's nothing to suggest he abused to jutsu. Just like there's nothing to suggest that he operated in secret from the village.
It's never stated when Orochimaru left the village, but it was entirely due to Minato becoming Hokage. Despite what you heard from the anime.

Spoiler

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And again, where did you get the impression that Sasuke is acting on his own accords, and not just following orders the other ninja?

 

[Dantee]

Wonderful read 5 stars 10/10 thread.

 

[Lost Woods Denizen]

You're assuming too much on Tobirama's part. He himself declared the jutsu Taboo, there's nothing to suggest he abused to jutsu. Just like there's nothing to suggest that he operated in secret from the village.
It's never stated when Orochimaru left the village, but it was entirely due to Minato becoming Hokage. Despite what you heard from the anime.

Spoiler

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And again, where did you get the impression that Sasuke is acting on his own accords, and not just following orders the other ninja?

I do not think that I am assuming too much about Tobirama, because I did not say that he was evil like Orochimaru. He was the first generation shadow, and therefore the closest to the first, until Naruto strongest fire, Hashimara. He also became a fire himself. Every generation the darkness became more perverted is what I am saying. Danzo is a bad Tobirama, Orochimaru a bad Danzo, and Sasuke only the good aspects of their darkness (with a little of the bad.) And I know that he declared the jutsu taboo, but the man did invent it. He knew where to stop. Danzo and Orochimaru did not.

It was due to Minato becoming the hokage, yes, but Ibiki himself did not specify how long after Minato became the hokage that Orochimaru left. Leaving after Minato died is still leaving after he had become hokage. My point stands.

Sasuke acting under missions (following orders like another ninja) is still doing what he wants. He chose to follow the leaf on his own accords, but don't forget that he once was going to end the leaf on his own accords. Him conceding that battle to Naruto was him changing his own mind, due largely in part to Naruto's equality to him as a rival. I am sure even IF Sasuke was not on a mission, whenever he felt the need to take a walk to, say, the next continent and back, he would and Naruto couldn't, but more importantly WOULDN'T stop him. Both of them cannot be hokage, so Sasuke willingly does his part in Naruto's shadow.

What do you think?

 

[Lost Woods Denizen]

Wonderful read 5 stars 10/10 thread.

Thank you for the read, and I do hope you read the Naruto response that I will write as well. For someone that likes Sasuke, maybe it can give you more insight into the good qualities of Naruto.

 

[Gagster]

I do not think that I am assuming too much about Tobirama, because I did not say that he was evil like Orochimaru. He was the first generation shadow, and therefore the closest to the first, until Naruto strongest fire, Hashimara. He also became a fire himself. Every generation the darkness became more perverted is what I am saying. Danzo is a bad Tobirama, Orochimaru a bad Danzo, and Sasuke only the good aspects of their darkness (with a little of the bad.) And I know that he declared the jutsu taboo, but the man did invent it. He knew where to stop. Danzo and Orochimaru did not.

It was due to Minato becoming the hokage, yes, but Ibiki himself did not specify how long after Minato became the hokage that Orochimaru left. Leaving after Minato died is still leaving after he had become hokage. My point stands.

Sasuke acting under missions (following orders like another ninja) is still doing what he wants. He chose to follow the leaf on his own accords, but don't forget that he once was going to end the leaf on his own accords. Him conceding that battle to Naruto was him changing his own mind, due largely in part to Naruto's equality to him as a rival. I am sure even IF Sasuke was not on a mission, whenever he felt the need to take a walk to, say, the next continent and back, he would and Naruto couldn't, but more importantly WOULDN'T stop him. Both of them cannot be hokage, so Sasuke willingly does his part in Naruto's shadow.

What do you think?

I'm still not convinced Tobirama was operating in secret, nor that he somehow had a different job from Shikamaru when Hashirama was Hokage. If Tobirama was the 2nd guy in charge at the time and that makes him the "shadow", why isn't Shikamaru the new "shadow"?
And I also don't understand what you're implying with Sasuke being Naruto's "Shadow". He's not evil, so how is what he's doing any different than a ninja like Shikamaru? They're all just protecting the leaf, so without the inherently despicable acts that Orochimaru/Danzo commited how is he the "shadow"? You make it seem like just the fact that Sasuke didn't destroy the village makes him Naruto's "other half".

 

[Lost Woods Denizen]

I'm still not convinced Tobirama was operating in secret, nor that he somehow had a different job from Shikamaru when Hashirama was Hokage. If Tobirama was the 2nd guy in charge at the time and that makes him the "shadow", why isn't Shikamaru the new "shadow"?
And I also don't understand what you're implying with Sasuke being Naruto's "Shadow". He's not evil, so how is what he's doing any different than a ninja like Shikamaru? They're all just protecting the leaf, so without the inherently despicable acts that Orochimaru/Danzo commited how is he the "shadow"? You make it seem like just the fact that Sasuke didn't destroy the village makes him Naruto's "other half".

Shikamaru is not the shadow because there is one more formula to the shadow theory that I presented in the OP. Hashirama had TWO shadows, and they were Tobirama and Madara. Sasuke is Madara's reincarnation and he is a descendent of the perverted version of Tobirama's shadow position through Orochimaru. He simply was a closer existence to Naruto than Shikamaru, as their bond is on a millenium year old chakra level. Besides, Shikamaru is more there to help Naruto in his role as the fire, and seems like he lacks the necessary darkness to work behind Naruto's back.

Our interpretations of shadow must differ, because I have not once said that the qualifications of being the shadow was "evil." The darkness degraded in each generation since Tobirama to create Danzo and Orochimaru, but Sasuke is the true boiling point of their better traits, and chooses to adhere to the fire that is Naruto.

Him not destroying the village DOES make him Naruto's other half, because the shadow is SUPPOSED to follow the flame. Going against the village was going against Naruto's intents, making them unsync. This is why Danzo and Orochimaru are the perverted examples of the shadow, they themselves contributing greatly to the shadow of the ninja world, and Sasuke is the TRUE shadow to the fire. That fire being Naruto. Him in that role is actualizing his place as the yin to Naruto's yang.

What do you think?

 

[Gagster]

Shikamaru is not the shadow because there is one more formula to the shadow theory that I presented in the OP. Hashirama had TWO shadows, and they were Tobirama and Madara. Sasuke is Madara's reincarnation and he is a descendent of the perverted version of Tobirama's shadow position through Orochimaru. He simply was a closer existence to Naruto than Shikamaru, as their bond is on a millenium year old chakra level. Besides, Shikamaru is more there to help Naruto in his role as the fire, and seems like he lacks the necessary darkness to work behind Naruto's back.

Our interpretations of shadow must differ, because I have not once said that the qualifications of being the shadow was "evil." The darkness degraded in each generation since Tobirama to create Danzo and Orochimaru, but Sasuke is the true boiling point of their better traits, and chooses to adhere to the fire that is Naruto.

Him not destroying the village DOES make him Naruto's other half, because the shadow is SUPPOSED to follow the flame. Going against the village was going against Naruto's intents, making them unsync. This is why Danzo and Orochimaru are the perverted examples of the shadow, they themselves contributing greatly to the shadow of the ninja world, and Sasuke is the TRUE shadow to the fire. That fire being Naruto. Him in that role is actualizing his place as the yin to Naruto's yang.

What do you think?

And I ask again, what makes you think Sasuke is working behind Naruto's back? Nothing in the gaiden or the original manga tells us that. And Madara only helped found the village, he wasn't Hashirama's assistant and he actually attacked the village.Tobirama and Danzo never meant to Harm the village so how are they like Madara?
If anything, Madara, Orochimaru, and Pre-VOTE fight Sasuke are similar, in that they all wanted to destroy the village. And Tobirama,Danzo,Shikamaru,and post-VOTE fight Sasuke are similar, in that they all protect the Leaf Village.

 

[Lost Woods Denizen]

And I ask again, what makes you think Sasuke is working behind Naruto's back? Nothing in the gaiden or the original manga tells us that. And Madara only helped found the village, he wasn't Hashirama's assistant and he actually attacked the village.Tobirama and Danzo never meant to Harm the village so how are they like Madara?
If anything, Madara, Orochimaru, and Pre-VOTE fight Sasuke are similar, in that they all wanted to destroy the village. And Tobirama,Danzo,Shikamaru,and post-VOTE fight Sasuke are similar, in that they all protect the Leaf Village.

You are completely misunderstanding me, so I will approach each point separately. I do not think that Sasuke is working behind Naruto's back, I believe that they are working together as they should. I thought I made that clear at the end of my last post.

Madara only "just" helped found the village? There would have been no village without the Uchiha also coming to the table. Madara was the leader of said Uchiha. His role as Hashirama's shadow was very vital. Madara only shares his link in this equation because of his spiritual and personal connection to Hashirama, whereas Tobirama and Hashirama were physically and personally connected through blood and love for the village. In other words, Madara has nothing to do with Danzo and Tobirama, and they are not similar.

I agree that Sasuke is a mix of your above list and another part of him is similar to the bottom, because ultimately both of them make him who is is today. He is the mix of all, and Shikamaru so happens to fulfill the shadow role both through his jutsu and his governing role. But for the story as a whole, only Sasuke ultimately matters as the yin to Naruto's yang.

What do you think?

 

[Naruto X Hunter]

Great thread, one of the best i've ever come across on this site.

 

[Lost Woods Denizen]

Great thread, one of the best i've ever come across on this site.

Thank you for your response, and I look forward to debating on the Naruto thread that I (eventually) make.

 

[Naruto X Hunter]

Thank you for your response, and I look forward to debating on the Naruto thread that I (eventually) make.

I see that you are highly intelligent. I appreciate that. i can feel myself becoming smarter from reading your comments, from gaining knowledge,and making new interesting connections, you are very well spoken.

When will your Naruto thread be posted?

 

[BigGuns Reloaded]

It's always been normal to perform Autopsies on dead ninja. You also are assuming where he got his information. Tobirama said himself that he had friends in the Uchiha, they probably told him. Also he never completed Edo-tensei , it's also implied Tobirama never used it by his surprise when Orochimaru summoned him.
Besides that, who was his "shadow" then when he became Hokage?

Orochimaru was a rouge ninja when Minato became Hokage, Danzo also stopped his experiments by then. There was nothing going on in the Leaf village without Minato's knowledge while he was Kage.

But Sasuke doesn't go and come whenever he wants, he's been a continuous string of unsubscribed missions for at least 10 years. There is no possible way for you to assume that these missions have something to do with the leaf village and are something other shinobi couldn't do.

Where you get all this from?
Danzo was still an advisor when minato was hokage
Orochimaru was still in the village in fact he was in root along with torune's father still doing danzo type shit ( he also was supposed to be the 4th)

Tobirama often went against his brother's wishes this is y madara really had to leave

Sasuke's mission is his own personal mission not one he was ordered to do