Sasori vs Muu

[NarutoX28]

You must be registered for see images

Pretty sure VIZ said the word convert, but no matter. Either way it's no longer chakra that's controlling the IS, but magnetism. So nah, GSB is doing nothing to it.

That's something similar to elemental recomposition in the fact that Chakra is converted into different elements.

Basically, it's saying that the Chakra is manipulated to have magnetic properties.

Edit: Of course, you could be correct as magnetism is referred to as a force while elementally recomposed chakra is still referred to chakra as stated here:

You must be registered for see links

 

[Conspirator.]

Mu wins handily,

 

[Apêx1]

That's something similar to elemental recomposition in the fact that Chakra is converted into different elements.

Basically, it's saying that the Chakra is manipulated to have magnetic properties.

Edit: Of course, you could be correct as magnetism is referred to as a force while elementally recomposed chakra is still referred to chakra as stated here:

You must be registered for see links

I already brought up the VIZ which says "Convert" instead of weave. So chakra is being converted into magnetism, meaning chakra is replaced completely. It's not like elemental attacks were it becomes Raiton chakra. If it was like Magnetism every time you would use Raiton you'd be creating real electricity, but Zetsu clearly stated that was not the case.

 

[NarutoX28]

I already brought up the VIZ which says "Convert" instead of weave. So chakra is being converted into magnetism, meaning chakra is replaced completely. It's not like elemental attacks were it becomes Raiton chakra. If it was like Magnetism every time you would use Raiton you'd be creating real electricity, but Zetsu clearly stated that was not the case.

Zetsu never stated that. All he stated was that by guiding actual lightning from the thunderclouds formed, he can use a lightning style jutsu that surpasses what anyone is normally capable of with their own chakra and nature manipulation. I do agree that it still develops elemental properties, but still remains as chakra as Yamato and Kakashi referred to Naruto's elementally recomposed chakra as Wind Chakra.

You're likely correct though. Magnetism is a force, similar to the So6P's Gravitational powers and those gravitational and repulsion forces are simply undetectable as an advanced sensor such as KCM Naruto couldn't even detect it.

 

[Apêx1]

Zetsu never stated that. All he stated was that by guiding actual lightning from the thunderclouds formed, he can use a lightning style jutsu that surpasses what anyone is normally capable of with their own chakra and nature manipulation. I do agree that it still develops elemental properties, but still remains as chakra as Yamato and Kakashi referred to Naruto's elementally recomposed chakra as Wind Chakra.

You're likely correct though. Magnetism is a force, similar to the So6P's Gravitational powers and those gravitational and repulsion forces are simply undetectable as an advanced sensor such as KCM Naruto couldn't even detect it.

He said lightning is much more powerful then what anyone can do with their own chakra AND their nature manipulation techniques. What are you even on about? It clearly implies nature manipulation cannot create a comparable attack to the real deal. And elemental composition is using your chakra, not converting your chakra into something else. The paper test proves this too. Their chakra determines the nature affinity. Meaning it's still chakra with an element added onto it. It's not being converted into something else, not even close.

Yep, and Deva uses all 5 elements to create that. Kamui uses the MS to create a portal to another dimension. There are many examples where chakra is used to create something which's constituent properties have nothing to do with chakra.

 

[Zexion~]

He said lightning is much more powerful then what anyone can do with their own chakra AND their nature manipulation techniques. What are you even on about? It clearly implies nature manipulation cannot create a comparable attack to the real deal. And elemental composition is using your chakra, not converting your chakra into something else. The paper test proves this too. Their chakra determines the nature affinity. Meaning it's still chakra with an element added onto it. It's not being converted into something else, not even close.

Yep, and Deva uses all 5 elements to create that. Kamui uses the MS to create a portal to another dimension. There are many examples where chakra is used to create something which's constituent properties have nothing to do with chakra.

Except Magnetism is a specific chakra nature, whereas ST isn't. But yeah bring this up in the next on topic thread.

 

[Apêx1]

Except Magnetism is a specific chakra nature, whereas ST isn't. But yeah bring this up in the next on topic thread.

Doesn't matter what it is. ST uses chakra to create a gravitational push/pull. It converts chakra into gravitation. Kamui converts chakra into a portal. Jiton allows the Kazekage to convert chakra into magnetism. Whether you think this is a debatable topic or not is really irrelevant, as you have absolutely no points other then it's KKG so it's chakra, when manga disagrees and i have brought you examples of chakra being converted into non-chakra abilities. But yes, pull the debate this next time card because your points are null and void lmao.

 

[Zexion~]

Doesn't matter what it is. ST uses chakra to create a gravitational push/pull. It converts chakra into gravitation. Kamui converts chakra into a portal. Jiton allows the Kazekage to convert chakra into magnetism. Whether you think this is a debatable topic or not is really irrelevant, as you have absolutely no points other then it's KKG so it's chakra, when manga disagrees and i have brought you examples of chakra being converted into non-chakra abilities. But yes, pull the debate this next time card because your points are null and void lmao.

Uh no I have points ill list them.

-Everything you listed is not a chakra nature basing the assumption they aren't going to operate the same, why you'd suggest that this one element would behave any different from the dozens of others is shaky to begin with.

-The word convert has been used to describe chakra before I'm pretty sure, however that is the only thing that is even keepign your argument believable.

The main argument of mine is:

-Chiyo stated that the only thing remaining from the Kazekage's life is his own chakra that he had when he was alive, which means that if it did completely turn into magnetism he'd have no way to still control said magnetism ultimately leading to believe that there is still controllable chakra in the forces he uses.


Oh yeah and as a side note: You're comparing ST and Jiton? Shinra Tensei an actual force without any chakra is non visible as it should be, Magnetism is still clearly quite visible despite the fact that a fully non-chakracontaining force should be quite invisible.

LASTLY

You must be registered for see links

so why you think it all boils down to a unique physical trait that ONLY THE THIRD HAS is already null and void.

 

[Apêx1]

Uh no I have points ill list them.

-Everything you listed is not a chakra nature basing the assumption they aren't going to operate the same, why you'd suggest that this one element would behave any different from the dozens of others is shaky to begin with.

Elements don't have to behave the same. Absolutely no reason for this to be the case. Has no weight in this discussion until you can bring me some proof of all nature manipulations being required to behave the same. Otherwise Magnetism is exclusive and unique in that way, end of.

-The word convert has been used to describe chakra before I'm pretty sure, however that is the only thing that is even keepign your argument believable.

I'll wait for the scan, as this has never been stated. Unless it's out of context of course, in which case it doesn't hold relevance. And lol, it's the argument that is proving the entirety of my point. "Convert".

The main argument of mine is:

-Chiyo stated that the only thing remaining from the Kazekage's life is his own chakra that he had when he was alive, which means that if it did completely turn into magnetism he'd have no way to still control said magnetism ultimately leading to believe that there is still controllable chakra in the forces he uses.

Wait what??? He obviously has chakra, and he isn't turning his own chakra within him into magnetism. He is converting the chakra that he applies to the IS into magnetism. It's not hard to grasp. I don't see how this would even be an argument on your part, because it literally makes no sense to convert his internal chakra into magnetism. He simply converts anything he or his chakra (externally) touches into magnetism. So nah, not to mention your point would imply he gets back the chakra he uses had it not been converted, which makes no sense.

Oh yeah and as a side note: You're comparing ST and Jiton? Shinra Tensei an actual force without any chakra is non visible as it should be, Magnetism is still clearly quite visible despite the fact that a fully non-chakracontaining force should be quite invisible.

Sasori's magnetic fields on his IS are completely invisible though.. What are you talking about? ST being invisible adds nothing to your argument. I am simply PROVING that chakra elements can be used in any number to create something that has nothing to do with chakra. It's a conversion, as is magnetism.

LASTLY

You must be registered for see links

so why you think it all boils down to a unique physical trait that ONLY THE THIRD HAS is already null and void.

How does this help your point? And that's a wrong use of null and void lml.

 

[Apêx1]

Uh no I have points ill list them.

-Everything you listed is not a chakra nature basing the assumption they aren't going to operate the same, why you'd suggest that this one element would behave any different from the dozens of others is shaky to begin with.

Elements don't have to behave the same. Absolutely no reason for this to be the case. Has no weight in this discussion until you can bring me some proof of all nature manipulations being required to behave the same. Otherwise Magnetism is exclusive and unique in that way, end of.

-The word convert has been used to describe chakra before I'm pretty sure, however that is the only thing that is even keepign your argument believable.

I'll wait for the scan, as this has never been stated. Unless it's out of context of course, in which case it doesn't hold relevance. And lol, it's the argument that is proving the entirety of my point. "Convert".

The main argument of mine is:

-Chiyo stated that the only thing remaining from the Kazekage's life is his own chakra that he had when he was alive, which means that if it did completely turn into magnetism he'd have no way to still control said magnetism ultimately leading to believe that there is still controllable chakra in the forces he uses.

Wait what??? He obviously has chakra, and he isn't turning his own chakra within him into magnetism. He is converting the chakra that he applies to the IS into magnetism. It's not hard to grasp. I don't see how this would even be an argument on your part, because it literally makes no sense to convert his internal chakra into magnetism. He simply converts anything he or his chakra (externally) touches into magnetism. So nah, not to mention your point would imply he gets back the chakra he uses had it not been converted, which makes no sense.

Oh yeah and as a side note: You're comparing ST and Jiton? Shinra Tensei an actual force without any chakra is non visible as it should be, Magnetism is still clearly quite visible despite the fact that a fully non-chakracontaining force should be quite invisible.

Sasori's magnetic fields on his IS are completely invisible though.. What are you talking about? ST being invisible adds nothing to your argument. I am simply PROVING that chakra elements can be used in any number to create something that has nothing to do with chakra. It's a conversion, as is magnetism.

LASTLY

You must be registered for see links

so why you think it all boils down to a unique physical trait that ONLY THE THIRD HAS is already null and void.

How does this help your point? And that's a wrong use of null and void lml.

 

[AizenSosuke]

Muu has Katon Fuuton and Doton which he should be able to use when hes invinsible. Also, invinsible or not, Jinton solos.

 

[Zexion~]

Elements don't have to behave the same. Absolutely no reason for this to be the case. Has no weight in this discussion until you can bring me some proof of all nature manipulations being required to behave the same. Otherwise Magnetism is exclusive and unique in that way, end of.

I'll wait for the scan, as this has never been stated. Unless it's out of context of course, in which case it doesn't hold relevance. And lol, it's the argument that is proving the entirety of my point. "Convert".

You must be registered for see images

(Chakra Control)

Chakra control means that it still requires chakra to control, and chakra can't control something that doesn't contain other chakra.

Wait what??? He obviously has chakra, and he isn't turning his own chakra within him into magnetism. He is converting the chakra that he applies to the IS into magnetism. It's not hard to grasp. I don't see how this would even be an argument on your part, because it literally makes no sense to convert his internal chakra into magnetism. He simply converts anything he or his chakra (externally) touches into magnetism. So nah, not to mention your point would imply he gets back the chakra he uses had it not been converted, which makes no sense.

He's a puppet? If he didn't get the chakra back he used how would he make more? He has no working chakra systems anymore. What....thats not the point the point is that what exactly is controlling the magnetism that was completely converted from chakra if the only other thing he has left in him is chakra? :lol

Sasori's magnetic fields on his IS are completely invisible though.. What are you talking about? ST being invisible adds nothing to your argument. I am simply PROVING that chakra elements can be used in any number to create something that has nothing to do with chakra. It's a conversion, as is magnetism.

You must be registered for see images

You can see the bubble of force surrounding all the needles. Plus you can see him visibly pushing something out of the thirds chest .-. and you can also see this in previous scans.

How does this help your point? And that's a wrong use of null and void lml.

Both you and AC said he controls the magnetism with a special physical trait unique to him only, when other shinobi also have this same technique, in completely different villages.

 

[Apêx1]

You must be registered for see images

(Chakra Control)

Chakra control means that it still requires chakra to control, and chakra can't control something that doesn't contain other chakra.

Good points. But I still disagree. It's been shown that one can infuse his sand with chakra to make it even more powerful. In the Databook [

You must be registered for see links

] it says that Gaara infused his sand with Chakra to make it MORE durable. Why would it say that if it was already infused with chakra? Simple, because it wasn't, and it was using magnetism as its basis for control. Once chakra is infused with it it becomes more durable and even more controllable. Same thing applies to the Yondaime. He used chakra to strengthen his Gold Sand further in a clash of sand power. So Sasori won't be vulnerable to chakra absorption unless he's infused it with chakra, which he doesn't need to do.

He's a puppet? If he didn't get the chakra back he used how would he make more? He has no working chakra systems anymore. What....thats not the point the point is that what exactly is controlling the magnetism that was completely converted from chakra if the only other thing he has left in him is chakra? :lol

Bro, he's a human puppet. Human Puppets even retain their physical strength as shown when he wanted Sakura. You're thinking of this too real life-wise and much less canon wise. he turns them into human puppets, they are still the same but without any organic material. And it was shown in the scan you posted that the Kazekage puppet released magnetism from his own body which manipulated the IS to create the ISW.

You must be registered for see images

You can see the bubble of force surrounding all the needles. Plus you can see him visibly pushing something out of the thirds chest .-. and you can also see this in previous scans.

I don't see any bubble of force? I really hope you don't mean the white undrawn field though, because that's around many characters/jutsu in the manga [

You must be registered for see links

][

You must be registered for see links

]..

Both you and AC said he controls the magnetism with a special physical trait unique to him only, when other shinobi also have this same technique, in completely different villages.

Doesn't matter, now does it? Also, Deidara's explosive chakra can be absorbed before it's converted into an explosion. Same applies to Jiton, it can be absorbed before it becomes Magnetism.

 

[Zexion~]

Good points. But I still disagree. It's been shown that one can infuse his sand with chakra to make it even more powerful. In the Databook [

You must be registered for see links

] it says that Gaara infused his sand with Chakra to make it MORE durable. Why would it say that if it was already infused with chakra? Simple, because it wasn't, and it was using magnetism as its basis for control. Once chakra is infused with it it becomes more durable and even more controllable. Same thing applies to the Yondaime. He used chakra to strengthen his Gold Sand further in a clash of sand power. So Sasori won't be vulnerable to chakra absorption unless he's infused it with chakra, which he doesn't need to do.



Bro, he's a human puppet. Human Puppets even retain their physical strength as shown when he wanted Sakura. You're thinking of this too real life-wise and much less canon wise. he turns them into human puppets, they are still the same but without any organic material. And it was shown in the scan you posted that the Kazekage puppet released magnetism from his own body which manipulated the IS to create the ISW.



I don't see any bubble of force? I really hope you don't mean the white undrawn field though, because that's around many characters/jutsu in the manga [

You must be registered for see links

][

You must be registered for see links

]..




Doesn't matter, now does it? Also, Deidara's explosive chakra can be absorbed before it's converted into an explosion. Same applies to Jiton, it can be absorbed before it becomes Magnetism.

That explosion point may have swayed me tbh, will think it over and reply when I get home.

 

[Worm]

Spoiler

4th Kazekage can't convert chakra into magnetic forces and use them to control his Gold Dust. Have you ever seen him send out magnetic waves? When Sasori takes out the Iron Sand, the Kazekage isn't releasing any magnetic forces either and Sasori is still making the Sand float (With what? Chakra.) and it only hardens after the Kazekage uses magnetic force on them (Chakra converts into magnetic force). 4th Kazekage specifically just uses them in a floating, non-hardened shape like Gaara does.

Same as Deidara's case. If you combine them instead of converting them, they are still chakra (Deidara's clay shapes that contain explosive chakra in them), but when Deidara converts them into explosive force, i.e. detonating them, you can't absorb his explosion. Only the chakra inside the clay shape if you're quick enough.

Let me make it clear what Sasori does. Like Apex said, Sasori directly converts chakra into an altogether new force. It's different from applying nature elements to your chakra as that is alternation rather than convertion. It's the same case as Pein's Shinra Tensei and BT. He weaves chakra into expulsion force and gravity manipulation. You can't actually absorb either his BT or his ST. Just like Kamui and FTG control space/time via chakra usage and convert it into different forces so you can't absorb FTG or Kamui either. Sasori converts chakra into a whole another force as well, completely different from chakra explusion like sending out fireballs and shit.

Let me steal this quoute from skype:

Let me make it simple: Chakra usage and Chakra Expulsion: Physically compressed chakra output. Chakra usage to perform techs are involve certain manipulation of forces, S/T techs: No physically compressed chakra output.
That's the best way I can put this.

Chakra is capable of controlling different forces and converting itself into them, but you can't actually absorb those forces as they aren't physically compressed chakra outputs. They are a whole another force altogether. 3rd Kazekage creates magnetic forces out of his body (left side of the chest in puppet's case) and uses them to control the Iron Sand. The force is generated by using chakra, but it isn't an outward expulsion of chakra.

The best you could do to absorb is grab the Kazekage and absorb shit directly out of his body. Also, like Josh said on skype, it is entirely possible to convert one force into another going by physics.

Once again. Using elemental natures on chakra is called alternation - stated by Kakashi. It is applying nature elements to your chakra and having them take on those properties. It's physically compressed chakra.

What Sasori does is convertion. It exchanges one force into another. Magnetism is a whole another force altogether. They are created from chakra, but they aren't physically compressed chakra outputs. The chakra usage is inner, but there's no chakra explusion. Don't see how visibility has anything to do with this, but the fact that neither Sakura nor Chiyo could actually see the magnetic waves is testimony to it being invisible. Just because you can see it as the reader, doesn't mean it's actually visible because the author has to note Sasori creating magnetic forces. Did you see those magnetic forces around any of his Iron Sand attacks? No. Why? Because they are invisible and didn't go into the Iron Sand visibly like that.

You must be registered for see links

^ This isn't a bubble of force surrounding needles... Do you want me to post literally dozens of manga that have that ''bubble of force'' surrounding some object or person? It's literally just the result of manga being black and white and the author high-lighting events through signs and shit. You've never seen that bubble of force on any other IS object he used magnetism on, now did you?

Edit: Oh sorry. Didn't see you guys resolved it.

 

[Beans2]

Jinton obviously ends the match you made so of course not to waste a thread it will branch into something else.

Kisame beats Sasori just as easily but people don't seem to get that I made this match just to see if anyone would actually try debating Sasori.

 

[NarutoX28]

He said lightning is much more powerful then what anyone can do with their own chakra AND their nature manipulation techniques. What are you even on about? It clearly implies nature manipulation cannot create a comparable attack to the real deal.

Yes, because of the fact that one cannot release that much chakra and apply a high level of spatial and nature manipulation in order to create an attack of that calibre. The fact still remains that the Chakra is manipulated in order to receive the physcial properties of that nature.

And elemental composition is using your chakra, not converting your chakra into something else. The paper test proves this too. Their chakra determines the nature affinity. Meaning it's still chakra with an element added onto it. It's not being converted into something else, not even close.

I'm aware that elemental recomposition doesn't convert chakra into something else. What I'm specifically saying is that it's molded to adapt the physical properties of that Nature. It's still chakra, but it receives the properties that makes it similar to lightning.