Sasori vs Giant Bird

Infant

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Sasori, as he was before his final fight
The bird, which forced Gamaken to defend with his shield


The bird is controlled by Nagato. This is a death match. All other conditions fair.
 

Symmetra

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Sasori wins easily. The third Kazekage puppet is stated stronger then Rasa, who’s sand was equal in speed to WA Gaara’s sand, and WA Gaara’s sand could block Amaterasu and version 2 fourth Raikage. That level of iron sand speed easily catches and kills the bird
 
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what giant brid???..
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Sasori wins easily. The third Kazekage puppet is stated stronger then Rasa, who’s sand was equal in speed to WA Gaara’s sand, and WA Gaara’s sand could block Amaterasu and version 2 fourth Raikage. That level of iron sand speed easily catches and kills the bird
When is there puppet stated stronger than Rasa?

When did Rasa equal Gaara in sand speed?

How does Iron Sand get speed capabilities from other sands from other users?
 

Symmetra

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When is there puppet stated stronger than Rasa?
The third Kazekage is stated as the strongest Kazekage in history by both Chiyo and the databook


When did Rasa equal Gaara in sand speed?
Twice

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How does Iron Sand get speed capabilities from other sands from other users?
Because the iron sand is stated the strongest weapon in the sand village to ever exist and the third is the strongest kazekage. He can’t be the strongest Kazekage and have the strongest sand technique if his sand is actually slower then the other Kazekage’s, so his sand should at least scale to Rasa’s since his sand is stated better
 
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The third Kazekage is stated as the strongest Kazekage in history by both Chiyo and the databook
Although i agree with the conclusion, do they not actually say he was stronger than all "before him", which only puts him ahead of the 1st and 2nd Kazekage?


Yes, my bad


Because the iron sand is stated the strongest weapon in the sand village to ever exist and the third is the strongest kazekage. He can’t be the strongest Kazekage and have the strongest sand technique if his sand is actually slower then the other Kazekage’s, so his sand should at least scale to Rasa’s since his sand is stated better
Strength is inherently tied to speed?

By this logic the 4th Raikage is the strongest person in history . . .
 

Symmetra

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lthough i agree with the conclusion, do they not actually say he was stronger than all "before him", which only puts him ahead of the 1st and 2nd Kazekage?
Actually Chiyo just straight up says he was the strongest Kazekage to ever live, which includes Rasa and Gaara


Strength is inherently tied to speed?
No, but In this case it’s a logical conclusion. We know the iron sand is the strongest form of sand manipulation. This can’t be true if it’s significantly slower then the gold dust, since then they would be relative because gold dust would have a massive speed advantage

Iron sand has to be relative in speed to gold dust for it to be the superior technique it’s stated to be
 

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Actually Chiyo just straight up says he was the strongest Kazekage to ever live, which includes Rasa and Gaara



No, but In this case it’s a logical conclusion. We know the iron sand is the strongest form of sand manipulation. This can’t be true if it’s significantly slower then the gold dust, since then they would be relative because gold dust would have a massive speed advantage

Iron sand has to be relative in speed to gold dust for it to be the superior technique it’s stated to be
Oh, nice.

All techniques have something in common. To prove a necessity, you must prove a restriction or a limit on the capabilities of these techniques that makes speed a big enough influence for it to be a deciding factor. Look at what i did with scaling Manda to Orochimaru in the Senju Brothers thread, for an example.

(I could answer directly, proving my own side, but there is good discussion to be had using this longer route)
 

Bob74h

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No it doesn’t because they just means Sasori scales to that level
He was was difficulty with defeating sakura something that ether gaara or rasa should have any difficulty with considering they above scale shukaku via various statements and these statements are supported by the fact gaara can keep pace with edo madara
Also the third kazekage was the strongest then why would kabuto revive rasa, It makes no sense narratively
 

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He was was difficulty with defeating sakura something that ether gaara or rasa should have any difficulty with considering they above scale shukaku via various statements and these statements are supported by the fact gaara can keep pace with edo madara
Also the third kazekage was the strongest then why would kabuto revive rasa, It makes no sense narratively
Sasori took his body, so no dna for Kabuto to collect.

A lack of understanding proves nothing but itself.
 

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He was was difficulty with defeating sakura something that ether gaara or rasa should have any difficulty with considering they above scale shukaku via various statements and these statements are supported by the fact gaara can keep pace with edo madara
Also the third kazekage was the strongest then why would kabuto revive rasa, It makes no sense narratively
A few points:
Point 1. Sasori was not having difficulty with defeating Sakura. Sasori was having a ""difficult"" time against Chiyo.
- Sasori literally blitz'd Sakura a handful of times with extremely casual attacks that Chiyo had to save her from.
  • Sakura would be incapable of dodging Hiruko's senbon and/or tail on her own - she explicitly has Chiyo control her here.
  • 3rd Kazekage puppet's literal 1st attack - Chiyo has to pull Sakura back and use Hiruko's tail to defend her.
  • 3rd Kazekage's 2nd/3rd/4th attack - Sakura w/ Chiyo's help still gets caught by the arms, wire, & barely escapes the gas.
  • Sakura gives a rousing speech after escaping the gas... Sasori then twitches his finger & Sakura almost dies to some kunai.
  • Sakura can't dodge the 1st Iron Sand bullet attack, Chiyo saves her with one of her puppets.
  • Sakura can't dodge the 2nd Iron Sand spear attack, Chiyo saves her with one of her puppets.
I'll stop there and I want you to take a moment to appreciate the fact that Sakura has literally done nothing except almost die. Sakura simply did not have the speed, skill, nor experience to deal with *any* of Sasori's attacks and without Chiyo literally controlling her body then she would have died to virtually all of them. I'm not going to bash Sakura because she was simply out of her depth - having the strength to destroy Hiruko, and the resolve to use a fucking explosive on herself are, you know, alright - but in no way was she capable of fighting at Sasori's level.

It's at this point IMO that Sasori is pretty much toying with them out of boredom and because he's having fun fighting with his grandma. He's already demonstrated this his Kazekaze puppet is objectively superior in this battle (faster than they can physically fight, any of it's tricks could kill Sakura, he was able to 2v1 Chiyo's puppets, every single Iron Sand attack was overwhelmingly effective, etc.) and for some reason he decides to switch to literally the one type of Iron Sand attack that Sakura could actually defend against. And you know what? As soon as Sasori gets bored of it and wants to finish the fight he whips out the World Method or whatever it was called - yet another Iron Sand attack that Sakura is incapable of dodging.

The only reason Sasori lost his 3rd Kazekage puppet is because of Sakura's trick with having the antidote but pretending to be poisoned. A trick that literally nobody else in the series could do because literally nobody else had an antidote. Against any other opponent they would either be completely poisoned, or have displayed such a higher level of ability that Sasori would not be casually messing around risking his puppets. Again, not bashing Sakura here - that was a great strategy - but it by no means shows off the physical combat abilities to actually fight at Sasori's level.

I'll stop breaking down the fight there because this is already waaaay to long of a point, but suffice to say I don't think Sasori is even trying anymore and in fact he goes on to commit suicide at the end of the fight so... yeah, moving on.

Point 2. Trying to use the scaling is a faulty argument from both sides. No, the scaling doesn't make sense, that's not my fault, that's not your fault and it's not even necessarily a bad thing but... it is what it is. The 3rd Kazekaze is canonically regarded as much stronger than Gaara was at the time, and at the least certainly stronger than Rasa was... and Edo Rasa scales to War Arc Gaara, ergo 3rd Kazekage is stronger than War Arc Gaara. Whether or not we think this makes sense with regards to their onscreen or not-seen feats doesn't matter. We can go back and forth all day saying "nuh uh, I think this makes more sense" but the fact is both were in the manga and the anime despite being contradictory. At the end of the day, Sasori doesn't have an real anti-feats (that aren't easily attributed to him throwing the fight). We know 3rd Kazekage is at least relative to all the other Kazekage, we know Sasori was strong enough or effective enough to kill him, we know Sasori himself is a kage-level shinobi relative to them, we know Sasori has hundreds of other fodder puppets to bring to bare.

When you take everything else away, Sasori is effectively Kage-level x2 because he's literally himself + the 3rd Kazekage.

Point 3. "Also the third kazekage was the strongest then why would kabuto revive rasa, It makes no sense narratively."

wtf dude of course it makes sense, Naruto is a story with characters with themes and connections and shit. Not a vs-debate.
Of course it makes more narrative sense to have Gaara fight & overcome his actual father brought back from the dead.

---

But also as a side note I will strongly argue *against* the conclusion that the 3rd Kazekage must have been faster than the others. He could absolutely have been the slowest Kazekage and still been the strongest. His magnet release presumably has way more applications in addition to what we saw that make it far far better against your standard shinobi.
  1. It renders all metal weapons pretty much useless, if not actively dangerous to have. You can't exactly throw kunai or shurikens at the guy that can telekinetically control metal. Sakura even tries to make a point like "oh well good thing I only use my fists, lol"
  2. It's already canon that there's variation in what medium they use (Rasa using Gold to counter Shukaku's Sand), I see no reason this doesn't carry over to Iron Dust. Gold is about 2.5 denser than Iron according to a quick Google search? Honestly that means it probably *should* be faster but my point was more that the Iron could have other properties that made it more useful (like, I dunno, more resistant to heat/fire).
  3. The fact that the ability of the Kazekage is *magnet release* not *dust/sand control*. For all we know the 3rd was just super talented at using his magnet release for a huge variety of effects and that's what made him the strongest and the Iron Sand was just his primary/best weapon. Or idk, maybe he had an awesome crab summoning contract, who knows
So, was the 3rd Kazekage the strongest? Supposedly. The fastest? Probably, but not necessarily.
 
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Infant

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But also as a side note I will strongly argue *against* the conclusion that the 3rd Kazekage must have been faster than the others. He could absolutely have been the slowest Kazekage and still been the strongest. His magnet release presumably has way more applications in addition to what we saw that make it far far better against your standard shinobi.
Wow! Excellent post, although i have 2 bones to pick with it.

@Bob74h
The quote above is basically what i was trying to lead you towards. There are enough differences in the elements to allow for factors besides pure speed and power to make one overall better than another.
 

Bob74h

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Point 1. Sasori was not having difficulty with defeating Sakura. Sasori was having a ""difficult"" time against Chiyo.


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You were saying?




I'll stop there and I want you to take a moment to appreciate the fact that Sakura has literally done nothing except almost die.
Your wrong actually as sakura destroyed hiruko,the third kazekage puppet and most of his hundred puppet army
This is the same sakura who got knocked off by kyubi naruto just touching her with his tail

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It's at this point IMO that Sasori is pretty much toying with them out of boredom and because he's having fun fighting with his grandma

Never stated whatsoever infact the contrary was stated as chiyo said let's end this to which sasori agreed meaning that they did intend to kill one another
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He's already demonstrated this his Kazekaze puppet is objectively superior in this battle

all feats and statements say otherwise like chiyo even states that sakura is able to read and react to sasori's attacks

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don't think Sasori is even trying anymore and in fact he goes on to commit suicide at the end of the fight so... yeah, moving on.
''Sasori saw my attack but could not avoid it'' that what was said, This notion that he wished to die is complete headcanon as it's never mentioned anywhere in the story


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Trying to use the scaling is a faulty argument from both sides. No, the scaling doesn't make sense,
No it makes perfect sense and statements mean next to nothing in naruto as their never consistent with feats like take kakashi being on kabuto's level as a example
Rasa can hold down shukaku and fight on par with WA gaara who can damage madara so a guy who died to sasori would not scale above rasa as feats have more validity then statements









wtf dude of course it makes sense, Naruto is a story with characters with themes and connections and shit. Not a vs-debate.
Of course it makes more narrative sense to have Gaara fight & overcome his actual father brought back from the dead.

Characters and themes is not a argument against in universe reasons as of course rasa was revived over the third kazekage due to his relations with gaara however that argument means nothing as im about talking in universe reasons not editorial ones.
In universe, The third kazekage would of been revived over rasa had he been stronger and the scaling proves this so you can be skeptical all you like but your skepticism is not a argument here as nothing really supports your viewpoint









But also as a side note I will strongly argue *against* the conclusion that the 3rd Kazekage must have been faster than the others. He could absolutely have been the slowest Kazekage and still been the strongest. His magnet release presumably has way more applications in addition to what we saw that make it far far better against your standard shinobi.

Deidara as a kid was not impressed with the third kazekage when orochimaru had revived him as edo tensei plus that same scene never showed any unique applications of the iron sand showing that he likely did not have any
 

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You were saying?
Ah yes, a random gif of Sakura punching Sasori. Completely invalidates my argument, you're right.
Totally fair point, of course we can ignore literally everything else that happened in the fight. I concede. /s

Your wrong actually as sakura destroyed hiruko
A: I never denied Sakura can punch really hard.
B: Sakura on her own was incapable of landing that punch.
C: This was Chiyo's plan, Chiyo stopped Hiruko's tail, and Chiyo was still puppeting Sakura.
D: You might as well say Sakura could beat Nagato if he wasn't allowed to attack back or defend himself.

the third kazekage puppet
Which I fairly addressed. Obviously this doesn't matter to you, because you seem to have ignored 90% of my argument just as you seem to ignore 90% of the actual fight that happened. Sakura would be incapable of reaching this point, or landing that hit, without Chiyo carrying her there. I pointed out how many times Sakura would have died to Sasori's variety of attacks were it not for Chiyo. I pointed out the times were the Kazekage puppet's attacks were explicitly too fast for Sakura to react to. I pointed out how it was impressive that Sakura pulled off this plan and made the antidote. And most importantly I pointed out how none of that applies to other characters because no other character could ever be in that position, so you can't use it as an anti-feat for Sasori.

and most of his hundred puppet army
lol, Sakura is showing destroying a grand total of .... one of Sasori's hundred puppets in the manga. And while she does so, another puppet is coming up behind her and - surprise surprise - Lady Chiyo steps in with one of her puppets to save Sakura. This also leaves an opening for Sasori who immediately lands a strike on Chiyo and has her poisoned.

The anime makes it seem like much more of an epic fight (rather than Chiyo and Sakura being instantly overwhelmed), which is fair to use, but it still makes a point of Chiyo doing most of the work, having to protect Sakura, and Sasori still overwhelming them even though he can't even pay attention to all of them at once. "Most" of the 100 are *not* destroyed and Sasori still has plenty left over when they attempt to seal him.

And again, I think it's quite obvious that by this point Sasori has proven - if nothing else - that Sakura alone would not have stood a chance against Sasori. Chiyo is literally doing - at worst - 10x the work Sakura is doing here, and they still are completely losing the fight. This isn't some "oh wow, they are beating Sasori" moment, this is a "oh ****, we need to stop this right now or we are done for" moment; which is why they go all in on the sealing thing.

And finally, my point was that Sakura had done nothing up to the point I stopped talking about it. I never denied Sakura started helping more against the giant Iron Sand cube/pyramid attacks, or against the Sasori or 100 puppets. It's simply my belief that based on what we have seen of the character, and what we know of how the fight ends, that he is no longer truly trying to win here.

Never stated whatsoever infact the contrary was stated as chiyo said let's end this to which sasori agreed meaning that they did intend to kill one another
Of course they intended to kill each other, were you not paying attention at all? This fact has little bearing on how hard Sasori felt he needed to try, little bearing on how seriously he was fighting his grandma and some little girl. In his own words he didn't think they'd get this far. If he was playing this fight completely seriously from the start he would have just spammed any of the Iron Sand attacks that actually worked. He would have started with the 100 from the start. He could have done all kinds of things but didn't think he needed to. And again, the guy literally commits suicide (and/or is so emotionally compromised he can't fight effectively) like 2 minutes later, hopefully I don't need to explain why that would affect how he's fighting.

all feats and statements say otherwise like chiyo even states that sakura is able to read and react to sasori's attacks
... Uh.. yeah...

I guess if you ignore the 10 attacks before that one... and ignore the fact that Chiyo was puppeting her to get that far... and ignore the fact that Sakura was given dozens of attempts to learn it... and ignore the fact that Sasori simply switches to a different type of attack and she completely fails to dodge it. Sasori even mentions that he'll have to use a bit of chakra to end it, implying he was using the giant cube attacks not because they were particularly strong or fast but simply because he thought it was the cheapest way to do it - in other words, he's not trying very hard.

Sure.

''Sasori saw my attack but could not avoid it'' that what was said, This notion that he wished to die is complete headcanon as it's never mentioned anywhere in the story
Maybe you haven't ever picked up on this, but the story doesn't have to explicitly say something word for word for it to be true. Pretty much everybody agrees that Sasori wasn't trying his hardest and commit suicide at the end here. I really don't know how to explain this to you?

And if you look at the rest of the context, Chiyo onlys says that in response to Sakura telling her that she finally did it (beat Sasori) and Chiyo contradicts her, and tells her that 'no, I should have lost, he saw the attack'. And you can tell even Sakura picks up on the implication just based on her expression/reaction.

---

As for the rest, I really don't feel like arguing over it.

FWIW though, I appreciate the debate. Always nice to find new Naruto discussion, and this will be my second post here.
Don't mean to come across as rude either but these Sasori debates are a personal pet peeve of mine.

---

To answer the prompt, I strongly believe Sasori can beat the giant bird...
if for no other reason than because of how strong I think the Iron Sand is.
 

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Wow! Excellent post, although i have 2 bones to pick with it.

@Bob74h
The quote above is basically what i was trying to lead you towards. There are enough differences in the elements to allow for factors besides pure speed and power to make one overall better than another.
Oops, this was for @Symmetra


To answer the prompt, I strongly believe Sasori can beat the giant bird...
if for no other reason than because of how strong I think the Iron Sand is.
Please explain how the strength of Iron Sand translates to the death of the bird.

Excellent post, yet again
 

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Please explain how the strength of Iron Sand translates to the death of the bird.
Well to start let's look at what the giant bird can do and how it could actually win vs Sasori:

1. It's a really big and strong bird so it can... I dunno, try and crash into Sasori with its beak or whatever.
2. It can apparently drop some sort of explosives? They aren't incredibly impressive but there's a lot of them.

And that's pretty much it. The bird is quite limited in its method of attack.
The explosives are nice but it probably can't do them forever, nor do they seem powerful enough to break through and Iron Sand defense. The only way it's going to win is by either being too fast to dodge or too strong to block.
But I think that if nothing else, the sheer size and scale of the Iron Sand should protect Sasori either way.

Sure the bird can fly, but so can the 3rd Kazekage puppet, and the Iron Sand even more so. It's not like they are in a race, so Sasori can just bunker down comfortably and attack it at a range all day. He's free to manipulate the Iron Sand to chase the bird through the air, meanwhile the bird *has* to get through Sasori's attacks and defense in order to get to Sasori.

Whether it's hundreds of Satetsu bullets, dozens of Satetsu spikes, or just a couple of giant shifting shapes - Sasori has far more methods to try catching the bird while it flies around looking for an opening. And if the bird ever gets close Sasori can just bust out something like the World method around himself and let the bird crash into it.

Really the only counter argument is trying to use some scaling to say Sasori is too slow or the bird somehow is strong enough to break the Iron Sand. Neither of which I think are truly valid arguments, as much has been discussed already in the thread.

I mean, isn't there a scene in the anime where Edo Chiyo dodges one of Naruto's attacks? lol.

And if worst comes to worst... Sasori isn't just limited to the Iron Sand here, he's still got his own puppet body and his 100 and his overpowered instant paralysis poison. Even if the poison doesn't work it's not like the bird has incredible durability feats. Jiraiya was able to stop it with IIRC kind of a basic fireball jutsu and Sasori does have a pretty impressive flamethrower built into his arms. Include the anime and Sasori has those water cannons as well which are honestly kind of crazy powerful in terms of range and attack potency.
 
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