In his fight against zoro we saw that ryuma never used haki yet he is known as a legend in wano. Is it possible he obtained this level of strength without haki training or was this just not given to him so zoro has a fair fight I understand haki wasn't officially revealed yet in the story. Also considering ryuma had brooks shadow could his fighting style have been different and made for a better fight.
[Discussion] Ryuma
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chopstickchakra
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Did you know Ryuma is actually another one of Oda's characters from a different manga? I think Brook's style is probably stronger but that's just me guessing based on the fact Brook is a SH and the way he described his former kingdom made it sound as if it was a strong reputable country.
I did but I've never looked for it I guess it would help my understanding of his characters strength. Even if Brooks style is better ryuma used it better and was a near even match for zoro. I personally don't think ryuma was at his best because it wasn't his style of fighting and he didn't train in it his whole life but because he is a gifted swordsman he naturally adapted. Not to mention the haki that's what's bothering me him being a legend he had to have haki. I'm mostly just trying to get a base idea of how strong they are in wano.
Your Creepy Stalker
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It's possible that Ryuma, the real one, did have Haki, but because Brook's fighting style didn't incorporate it, Zombie Ryuma didn't use it. Or he just can't.
I think it is because Haki wasn't a thing at that point in the story... But if we were to explain it away, it is probably because he is a zombie, maybe they can't utilize Haki or maybe because it wasn't in brooks fighting style for him to use it.
chopstickchakra
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That makes a lot of sense, since Brook didn't have haki his shadow wasn't able to produce it even if ryuma could while he was alive.
@chopstickchakra I don't think ace trained in haki he seemed more like he focused on his DF so if he hadn't died he might've awakened it. As far as haki he'd probably be at smoker level. I noticed that logia types in paradise didn't care for haki because their DF abilities where OP and no one could touch them.
Wrappering_
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Yeah and whitebeard and all the new world captains in the war of the best.
It's pretty obvious that Oda introduced haki to us as viewer when Rayleigh taught Luffy on Amazon Lily even though signs of haki were hinted throughout part 1.
If the war of the best was redone now, I think all the big shots would use good CoO or CoA including Ace. I think Sabo is an accurate representation of where Ace would be if he didn't bite the bullet.
chopstickchakra
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Just checking, I thought you were one of the users that gave me guff(I love that phrase) for saying Ace should have had haki. Also I'm pretty sure WB did but his was like Sentomaru's, invisible. I agree with the Sabo statement.
chopstickchakra
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But Ace also lived in the New World and for 2 years iirc before being under WB's protection. It was said Logia who are overconfident in their fruit die in the NW. Plus the fact that Logia's intangibility is a subconscious act, a Logia will become intangible when attacked even if asleep. This means Logia can't make there body physical at attack yet Ace's body stopped Akainu's punch, if he can't make his body solid then the only way left to stop it would be haki.
Punk Hazard
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Haki was introduced in Sabaody and was used prominently throughout the war. He had the concept of Haki down for a while.
I knooooow but the fights weren't fought like they are now. We as the reader couldn't see it being used after Oda started to color it. Also besides a few comments from the admirals along the lines of pesky haki users there was barely any haki used in the war.
But did Whitey Bay or Thunder McGuy have haki, or did Jimbei use it on his hands when he blocked the magma punch, or did Garp use it when he punched Marco ?
I said to us as viewer because the concept was not explained yet, only hinted. After the skip we "learned" it and we were able to see it. So it doesn't mean it wasn't used in the war, I never said that.
Like love cook said if they where to redo the entire war with us knowing of haki all the captains should possess CoA and CoO. As far as logias go I think they could solidify at will for example when luffy met smoker he was able to make his smoke solid enough to grab luffy at least this is what I gather from it but it could depend on the type of logia DF the user ate. As fas as Aces intangibility goes i think after training with your DF you can control when you go intangible but of course this is just speculation.
Punk Hazard
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Key word is overconfident. Who says Ace was overconfident with his fruit?
The bolded is just completely wrong.
1. Logia eaters can keep their bodies solid if they want to. The subconscious transformation occurs after training and mastery of the fruit. If a Logia just became intangible whenever something hit them, then a Logia would never be able to touch anything or be touched by anyone, even a hug or handshake, without bursting into the form of their element.
2. Akainu's magma neutralizes Ace's Devil Fruit. When Akainu shot magma at Ace, it burned his physical hand and stopped it from transforming.
3. Ace jumped in front of Akainu's fruit to protect Luffy. What damn sense would it make for him to disperse into flames if he's trying to act as a shield?