[Spoilers] Rukia vs Toshiro?

[kotoamatsukami]

He was pretty messed up, when As Nodt affected him with his fear, so i don't see reason not to believe that As Nodt without bankai wouldn't beat Byakuya. Also As Nodt didn't use Vollstandig in that fight.

No Byakuya won't messed up he broke out of that fear he was in an proceeded to attack asnodt..so wat he won't useing vollstanding Byakuya won't useing his bankai..anyway that's not the topic.

My point exactly he said she was strong, but never quoted stronger than him or anyone else. She just improved over the training. And no learning bankai does not make you captain level. Look at renji, when he first learned bankai was he captain level? Of course not, he got beat pretty bad by almost everyone. ikaku learned bankai is he captain level? No where close. When

When ichigo learned bankai and fought byakuya, he would have lost if not for his hollow side, when it came to whose bankai is stronger. At the time byakuya' was stronger, and this is ichigo i'm talking about. So bankai doesn't mean captain level.

I'm saying the moment you get bankai you can become a captian not a strong captain but you can be one an rukia is clearly captian level no debating so actually forced a stenrriter to go vollstanding very quickly...he would have never called rukia strong if it won't for the training...an yea renji was captian level a low captian level an would have beat every vice captian ass back at that time besides ikkaku.

Um no their bankai's were even Byakuya did not land a hit untill ichigo spirtual pressure started weighing himself down.

 

[Kenshin the god of war]

The moment byakuya went bankai the fight was already over, he showed like three different ways he could have killed ichigo. But at the last moment when ichigo was about to die. His hollow stepped in and saved him, mainly because the hollow ichigo injured byakuya. But if not for that interruption, ichigo would be long gone.
And renji captain level? That's hilarious.

 

[kotoamatsukami]

The moment byakuya went bankai the fight was already over, he showed like three different ways he could have killed ichigo. But at the last moment when ichigo was about to die. His hollow stepped in and saved him, mainly because the hollow ichigo injured byakuya. But if not for that interruption, ichigo would be long gone.
And renji captain level? That's hilarious.

Lol no the moment ichigo went bankai the fight could have been over with his sword to Byakuya neck the moment ichigo went bankai he had the advantage untill Byakuya went senkei they were even then ichigo spirtual pressure started weighing him down.

Renji right now is captian level no debating...but even back then he was captian level inorder to be a captian is to have a bankai witch renji had there are 2 other ways aswell but whatever..even Byakuya had to resort to kido inorder to beat renji if not he would have needed his bankai to do so.

 

[immortal sage]

I think toshiro is stronger
1- rukia can only stay in max shikai for a few seconds
2- she can only use one attack in Bamako before it becomes to much for her
3- hitsugaya was acceptably strong during aizen arc but he has become substantially powerful since then
4- he beat a sternritter in one move with Bankai like rukia exept that he could still stay in Bankai state after the initial attack

So yea hitsugaya wins with mid difficulty

 

[kotoamatsukami]

I think toshiro is stronger
1- rukia can only stay in max shikai for a few seconds
2- she can only use one attack in Bamako before it becomes to much for her
3- hitsugaya was acceptably strong during aizen arc but he has become substantially powerful since then
4- he beat a sternritter in one move with Bankai like rukia exept that he could still stay in Bankai state after the initial attack

So yea hitsugaya wins with mid difficulty

Ur just looking at it from a zanpacto stand point rukia is faster than hitsugiya seeing as how she was able to blitz asnodt an strike him an thats something that Byakuya failed to do during the first invasion.

 

[China IL]

Ur just looking at it from a zanpacto stand point rukia is faster than hitsugiya seeing as how she was able to blitz asnodt an strike him an thats something that Byakuya failed to do during the first invasion.

Hell no. Toshiro has way better speed feats.

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[Nebula]

Rukia controls the temperature of herself and things close to herself.
Toshiro controls water.
Toshiro wins by dealing physical damage.

 

[minato93]

are you 4ucking kidding me? for real?

Lord-Aizen could have fodderised all of the capitens, even yamamoto him self

small prove? he went out of yamamoto's suicide attack without any damage happens to him except ripping his cloth, so please.

Ask yourself this, why did Aizen go to the trouble of creating wonderwise if Aizen could defeat Yama without sealing away Yama's Zanpakuto?

 

[Forbidden Tale]

I understand where you're coming from with her power scale, but i never said she wasn't near captain level, But simply stating that she isn't captain level. (until manga say otherwise)

And the manga is still going on so we're most likely to see more of rukia, and her new bankai. And what it can actually do.

How do you then define captain level?
I see that manga clearly stated when Rukia defeated As Nodt that she is captain level, also Renji said that she can beat Mask (who already defeated two captain level shinigami) so i don't know how much evidence is needed.

 

[Forbidden Tale]

Renji right now is captian level no debating...but even back then he was captian level inorder to be a captian is to have a bankai witch renji had there are 2 other ways aswell but whatever..even Byakuya had to resort to kido inorder to beat renji if not he would have needed his bankai to do so.

To make your bankai into real bankai one must train with it for 10 years, we saw that characters like Urahara, Aizen and Toshiro before becoming captains was already strong enough to give good fight to captain and Renji was beaten by Byakuya with just "base" bankai, in the end i don't see reason why he used bankai he could beat him with just shikai, but it was probably to show Renji difference in power. Current Renji is captain level (prob. above captain level, as well), but pre time skip he was no where near that level.

 

[kotoamatsukami]

Hell no. Toshiro has way better speed feats.

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Lol that's nothing show me when hitsugiya is able to blitz a strong opponent an nearly kill them.

To make your bankai into real bankai one must train with it for 10 years, we saw that characters like Urahara, Aizen and Toshiro before becoming captains was already strong enough to give good fight to captain and Renji was beaten by Byakuya with just "base" bankai, in the end i don't see reason why he used bankai he could beat him with just shikai, but it was probably to show Renji difference in power. Current Renji is captain level (prob. above captain level, as well), but pre time skip he was no where near that level.

Toshiro was strong enough to give who a fight before he was a captian?...naw Byakuya had to use shikai in their fight Byakuya even praised renji bankai strenght renji just did not have good control over it yet but it was still strong...an that hole train for ten years stuff was silenced by ichigo when he fought Byakuya an could have killed him but did not want to.

 

[Forbidden Tale]

Toshiro was strong enough to give who a fight before he was a captian?...naw Byakuya had to use shikai in their fight Byakuya even praised renji bankai strenght renji just did not have good control over it yet but it was still strong...an that hole train for ten years stuff was silenced by ichigo when he fought Byakuya an could have killed him but did not want to.

Toshiro didn't become captain right after Isshin went missing, he first learned bankai, then learned who to fight with him and than he got strong enough to become captain. Kyoraku said that position of captain of 10th division was vacant until Hitsugaya take the position, also in the beginning of SS arc, Renji didn't really know who is captain of 10th division, it would mean that Hitsugaya become captain recently and Isshin went missing 20 years before SS arc, he had a lot of time to become captain level.

Ichigo is main character, Ichigo's bankai training was different from others and also Ichigo (pre bankai) by reiatsu was already captain level shinigami (Ukitake said so) and Renji wasn't.

 

[kotoamatsukami]

Toshiro didn't become captain right after Isshin went missing, he first learned bankai, then learned who to fight with him and than he got strong enough to become captain. Kyoraku said that position of captain of 10th division was vacant until Hitsugaya take the position, also in the beginning of SS arc, Renji didn't really know who is captain of 10th division, it would mean that Hitsugaya become captain recently and Isshin went missing 20 years before SS arc, he had a lot of time to become captain level.

Ichigo is main character, Ichigo's bankai training was different from others and also Ichigo (pre bankai) by reiatsu was already captain level shinigami (Ukitake said so) and Renji wasn't.

Hitsugiya was not even that strong during the first arc he was the weakest captian hands down gin played around with him lol hitsugiya won't even That much stronger than renji when renji got bankai they were almost even if anything so what's ur definition of captian level?...an renji was able to follow Byakuya movements that's something he could not do during their first in counter with ichigo..the only thing that hurt renji in his fight with Byakuya is that he stood in one spot the hole time if he actually moved around it would have been harder for Byakuya to win...

An how do you know hitsugiya trained with his bankai before he became a captian? He probaly learned bankai then became a Captain then trained with it while being a Captian.

An yea ichigo reiatsu was captian level back then as said by ukitake an renji put up a better fight against Byakuya did then ichigo was going to before yourichi saved him from Byakuya shikai attack so how was renji not captian level?...Byakuya with shikai alone could not beat renji so he had to resort to useing kido like I said before...so I ask again how was renji not captian level?

 

[Forbidden Tale]

Hitsugiya was not even that strong during the first arc he was the weakest captian hands down gin played around with him lol hitsugiya won't even That much stronger than renji when renji got bankai they were almost even if anything so what's ur definition of captian level?...an renji was able to follow Byakuya movements that's something he could not do during their first in counter with ichigo..the only thing that hurt renji in his fight with Byakuya is that he stood in one spot the hole time if he actually moved around it would have been harder for Byakuya to win...

An how do you know hitsugiya trained with his bankai before he became a captian? He probaly learned bankai then became a Captain then trained with it while being a Captian.

An yea ichigo reiatsu was captian level back then as said by ukitake an renji put up a better fight against Byakuya did then ichigo was going to before yourichi saved him from Byakuya shikai attack so how was renji not captian level?...Byakuya with shikai alone could not beat renji so he had to resort to useing kido like I said before...so I ask again how was renji not captian level?

1. He didn't show his power during first arc, you don't know what was his power during first arc, by feats Tousen (SS arc), Komamura, Sui Feng and Mayuri are all weaker than Hitsugaya, and from what we saw from other Arrancar arc, Hitsugaya was around Byakuya's level of power. As long as i remember Gin was able to play with FKT Bankai Ichigo with Mask as well.

2. How do you know that Hitsugaya was equal to Renji's level of power during SS arc, i will say again Hitsugaya didn't show his power during SS arc.

3. From what we saw in Arrancar arc, Hitsugaya far outclass Renji. Hitsugaya was able to fight toe to toe with Harribel (Tercera) and Renji was fodderized by Szayel (Octava). Also Renji said himself that Yylford would probably beat him if he fough with full power whole time and that he beat him just because his power up surprised Yylfordt, on the other hand, Toshiro was able to fodderize Shawlong with weakest bankai techinque, and again Renji used full power of his bankai at that time + Shawlong seems like de facto leader of Grimmjow's fracctions and stronger than Yylfordt.

4. How do you know that Hitsugaya couldn't keep up with Byakuya's movements and how do you know that Byakuya would win easy (like he did against Renji). I don't remember that ever Renji moved around with his bankai (correct me if i'm wrong) and there is no evidence that he can because his bankai is cumbersome.

5. 20 years prior to SS arc, his bankai trained was nearly end and by Renji's words he become captain recently he had a lot of time to train with him. + his reiatsu was pretty big and that also can be one of aspects why he did become captain (Renji didn't have that reiatsu).

6. Ichigo's reiatsu in shikai was equal to captain level reiatsu in shikai (excluding bankai), Renji's reiatsu in shikai was nowhere near Byakuya's level in shikai, also Renji used his bankai even before Byakuya used his shikai.

 

[kotoamatsukami]

1. He didn't show his power during first arc, you don't know what was his power during first arc, by feats Tousen (SS arc), Komamura, Sui Feng and Mayuri are all weaker than Hitsugaya, and from what we saw from other Arrancar arc, Hitsugaya was around Byakuya's level of power. As long as i remember Gin was able to play with FKT Bankai Ichigo with Mask as well.

2. How do you know that Hitsugaya was equal to Renji's level of power during SS arc, i will say again Hitsugaya didn't show his power during SS arc.

3. From what we saw in Arrancar arc, Hitsugaya far outclass Renji. Hitsugaya was able to fight toe to toe with Harribel (Tercera) and Renji was fodderized by Szayel (Octava). Also Renji said himself that Yylford would probably beat him if he fough with full power whole time and that he beat him just because his power up surprised Yylfordt, on the other hand, Toshiro was able to fodderize Shawlong with weakest bankai techinque, and again Renji used full power of his bankai at that time + Shawlong seems like de facto leader of Grimmjow's fracctions and stronger than Yylfordt.

4. How do you know that Hitsugaya couldn't keep up with Byakuya's movements and how do you know that Byakuya would win easy (like he did against Renji). I don't remember that ever Renji moved around with his bankai (correct me if i'm wrong) and there is no evidence that he can because his bankai is cumbersome.

5. 20 years prior to SS arc, his bankai trained was nearly end and by Renji's words he become captain recently he had a lot of time to train with him. + his reiatsu was pretty big and that also can be one of aspects why he did become captain (Renji didn't have that reiatsu).

6. Ichigo's reiatsu in shikai was equal to captain level reiatsu in shikai (excluding bankai), Renji's reiatsu in shikai was nowhere near Byakuya's level in shikai, also Renji used his bankai even before Byakuya used his shikai.

He did show his power during the first arc he was using shikai on gin while gin won't useing his at all really he was just playing around with the lil fella...by what feats those people you named are weaker than hitsugiya? Tosen had his chance to kill zaraki but it's an anime so kenpachi lived...soi fon was giving yourichi a hard time an she never even used bankai...komomaru an his power speak for it self...mayuri is a smart genius hitsugiya won't beat him ether he's to young he's still a kid..lol stop hitsugiya has an never will be equal to Byakuya in power.

they were bout equal just look at the fights they had an how they did in those fights they both fought captians if not for kido renji would have forced his opponent to use bankai... as for hitsugiya he was going all out in shikai but gin was just treating it like it was nothing if hitsugiya ever planed on hitting gin he would have needed bankai just like renji when fighting Byakuya.

Lol yea he fought toe to toe with her his powers countered hers greatly just the right opponent for him to fight physical wise she over powers him with ease an at the end he was worn down an needed to help from to other vizards...an szayel was useing a weird ability witch renji had no counter for plus he already analyzed all of renji power before they fought...the rest of the stuff you talk about is filler but still renji opponent had no chance of beating him once he got his full power back.

When did I say hitsugiya can't keep up with Byakuya movements? Of course he can he's a captain I was just stating renji being a vice captain could follow a captain movements showing us he has improved...I stated that hitsugiya an renji were almost even with hitsugiya being a little bit stronger an yea Byakuya would beat hitsugiya as well if he uses his kido the right way...knowing he can break it apart anytime he wants to he can do that then move.

Recently could have meant 5 years ago or something they do live for along time..an wat you mean he had a lot of spirtual pressure back then where are you getting this from all this info on hitsugiya past life?

Renji shikai stopped Byakuya shikai from activating you do remember that right?..yes ichigo reiatsu was captian level in his shikai form but not a mid high captian level like Byakuya back then..I was saying bankai renji reiatsu was that of shikai ichigo reiatsu witch was captain level so how is renji not captain level?..renji was strong he just could not control his bankai right at the time he did not even use his canon back then..Byakuya still had to resort to kido thoe so he could mess up renji control with the bankai.

 

[Forbidden Tale]

He did show his power during the first arc he was using shikai on gin while gin won't useing his at all really he was just playing around with the lil fella...by what feats those people you named are weaker than hitsugiya? Tosen had his chance to kill zaraki but it's an anime so kenpachi lived...soi fon was giving yourichi a hard time an she never even used bankai...komomaru an his power speak for it self...mayuri is a smart genius hitsugiya won't beat him ether he's to young he's still a kid..lol stop hitsugiya has an never will be equal to Byakuya in power.

they were bout equal just look at the fights they had an how they did in those fights they both fought captians if not for kido renji would have forced his opponent to use bankai... as for hitsugiya he was going all out in shikai but gin was just treating it like it was nothing if hitsugiya ever planed on hitting gin he would have needed bankai just like renji when fighting Byakuya.

Lol yea he fought toe to toe with her his powers countered hers greatly just the right opponent for him to fight physical wise she over powers him with ease an at the end he was worn down an needed to help from to other vizards...an szayel was useing a weird ability witch renji had no counter for plus he already analyzed all of renji power before they fought...the rest of the stuff you talk about is filler but still renji opponent had no chance of beating him once he got his full power back.

When did I say hitsugiya can't keep up with Byakuya movements? Of course he can he's a captain I was just stating renji being a vice captain could follow a captain movements showing us he has improved...I stated that hitsugiya an renji were almost even with hitsugiya being a little bit stronger an yea Byakuya would beat hitsugiya as well if he uses his kido the right way...knowing he can break it apart anytime he wants to he can do that then move.

Recently could have meant 5 years ago or something they do live for along time..an wat you mean he had a lot of spirtual pressure back then where are you getting this from all this info on hitsugiya past life?

Renji shikai stopped Byakuya shikai from activating you do remember that right?..yes ichigo reiatsu was captian level in his shikai form but not a mid high captian level like Byakuya back then..I was saying bankai renji reiatsu was that of shikai ichigo reiatsu witch was captain level so how is renji not captain level?..renji was strong he just could not control his bankai right at the time he did not even use his canon back then..Byakuya still had to resort to kido thoe so he could mess up renji control with the bankai.

1. Again, Gin toyed with FKT Bankai Mask Ichigo + He toyed to Shikai Toshiro, not Bankai, he couldn't show his power, since only fight he used bankai was against Aizen
2. Kira said that Toshiro's reiatsu is different compared to his.
3. Tousen lost to Zaraki with eyepatch, Komamura was foderized by Aizen, just like Toshiro, but fight in FKT show that Toshiro is stronger, same apply to Sui Feng.
Tousen didn't have chance of beating Zaraki, what Komamura done?, how do you know that Toshiro wouldn't keep up with Yoruichi just like Sui Feng? and yes Byakuya is equal to Toshiro.

4. So what, Kido is part of power, Shinigami don't use only Zanpakuto? It just prove that Byakuya with just kido is nearly stronger than Bankai Renji. Also for example Yamamoto with just Hakuda was stronger than Kensei and Urahara's kido is more powerfull than someone's bankai. Kido is part of Shinigami's power just like zanpakuto.
5. Yes and it's still more impresive, than Renji losing to base Szayel. Also Toshiro countered her abilities (Tercera) just like Byakuya countered Zommari's (Seventh, lol forgot how it goes in spanish) and you state that Byakuya is far stronger than Toshiro.
6. From what we saw no one have counter to Szayel's abilities (Mayuri had, but with prep. time), in round 2, Szayel gave him back bankai and even with Uryu, Dondochaka and Pesche he couldn't beat Szayel's basic Ressurection ability.
6. Renji himself said he just surprissed Yylfordt with unlimited release and that it won't be that easy (some transletion say that he would lose) if he had full power from start.

7. Your statament say that Renji is captain level and that Toshiro is weakest, i say he isn't and that Renji's speed is impresive, but yeah he improved.
8. You don't know could he imprison him, like he did it to Renji, they never fough against each other, or they never fough against same opponent, so it's just metter of opinion.

9. I'm glad that you said that. If he had 5 years, it would mean that he had 15 years to finish bankai training and train with bankai.

10. Yes, i remember and also i remember that Renji even activate Bankai before Byakuya activate his shikai and also Byakuya fought without shikai for some time against Bankai Renji.

Yes, it's true, you have point. But i see things like this:
1. VC to be captain level must unreleased have reiatsu level like unreleased captain, at least on par with low captain level
2. VC in shikai must have reiatsu level of shikai captain
3. VC in bankai must have reiatsu level on par with low captain reiatsu in bankai
In simpe words if VC in bankai have bigger reiatsu that unreleased captain it doesn't mean that he is captain level.

 

[kotoamatsukami]

1. Again, Gin toyed with FKT Bankai Mask Ichigo + He toyed to Shikai Toshiro, not Bankai, he couldn't show his power, since only fight he used bankai was against Aizen
2. Kira said that Toshiro's reiatsu is different compared to his.
3. Tousen lost to Zaraki with eyepatch, Komamura was foderized by Aizen, just like Toshiro, but fight in FKT show that Toshiro is stronger, same apply to Sui Feng.
Tousen didn't have chance of beating Zaraki, what Komamura done?, how do you know that Toshiro wouldn't keep up with Yoruichi just like Sui Feng? and yes Byakuya is equal to Toshiro.

4. So what, Kido is part of power, Shinigami don't use only Zanpakuto? It just prove that Byakuya with just kido is nearly stronger than Bankai Renji. Also for example Yamamoto with just Hakuda was stronger than Kensei and Urahara's kido is more powerfull than someone's bankai. Kido is part of Shinigami's power just like zanpakuto.
5. Yes and it's still more impresive, than Renji losing to base Szayel. Also Toshiro countered her abilities (Tercera) just like Byakuya countered Zommari's (Seventh, lol forgot how it goes in spanish) and you state that Byakuya is far stronger than Toshiro.
6. From what we saw no one have counter to Szayel's abilities (Mayuri had, but with prep. time), in round 2, Szayel gave him back bankai and even with Uryu, Dondochaka and Pesche he couldn't beat Szayel's basic Ressurection ability.
6. Renji himself said he just surprissed Yylfordt with unlimited release and that it won't be that easy (some transletion say that he would lose) if he had full power from start.

7. Your statament say that Renji is captain level and that Toshiro is weakest, i say he isn't and that Renji's speed is impresive, but yeah he improved.
8. You don't know could he imprison him, like he did it to Renji, they never fough against each other, or they never fough against same opponent, so it's just metter of opinion.

9. I'm glad that you said that. If he had 5 years, it would mean that he had 15 years to finish bankai training and train with bankai.

10. Yes, i remember and also i remember that Renji even activate Bankai before Byakuya activate his shikai and also Byakuya fought without shikai for some time against Bankai Renji.

Yes, it's true, you have point. But i see things like this:
1. VC to be captain level must unreleased have reiatsu level like unreleased captain, at least on par with low captain level
2. VC in shikai must have reiatsu level of shikai captain
3. VC in bankai must have reiatsu level on par with low captain reiatsu in bankai
In simpe words if VC in bankai have bigger reiatsu that unreleased captain it doesn't mean that he is captain level.

Yea gin toyed with bankai ichigo but gin was also useing bankai but against hitsugiya shikai he did not even need his shikai just his regular sword was getting the job done he could never do that against Byakuya that's a fact he's to much of a good fighter plus he has more brain smarts than hitsugiya plus better kido use so dont ever say they were equal..his reiatsu is different compared to his? Explain? Y does that matter?.......the fight in ftk showed that who was stronger? Lol not hitsugiya wat made hitsugiya look stronger?...tosen had a good chance at beating zaraki the moment he went bankai he could have ended things but he cuts zaraki shoulder instead of his neck or stab him in the eye an he has the ability to use kido but did he? Nope....komomaru bankai speaks for it self it's pure power but yea komomaru an soi fon are the only captians he has a chance to beat..lol hitsugiya keep up with who yourichi yea right lol if Byakuya had a hard time doing so then hitsugiya has no chance soifon is known for her speed that's one of her greatest strengths...an no they wer not equals and definitely not right now.

Yea i know kido is part of their power an the way Byakuya beat renji he was going to do ichigo the same way but yourichi showed up...renji did not lose to base szayel go reread renji could not even use his bankai during the beginning of their fight...no hitsugiya had the perfect counter to her attacks Byakuya actually got hit by zommari moves an with one leg was still able to move very fast an Byakuya completely destroyed his opponent while hitsugiya struggled with his that was the difference Byakuya would do better in a fight against halibel than hitsugiya would do against zommari... Like I said he already analyzed renji power of course he won't gone let renji win..an like I said that fight was filler not manga yylfordt is not real.

Renji was captian level back then toshiro is like the weakest next to soi fon an komomaru I won't saying renji speed improved just his ability to follow movement has improved...it will be harder for Byakuya to catch hitsugiya with kido cuz he actually moves in his bankai mode an hitsugiya said there's not much a power difference between his shikai an bankai so I can't see him beating Byakuya.

Yea but when did isshin leave exactly? An when did hitsugiya let an bankai?..even hitsugiya commented on his past bankai saying it was not good enough an that he needed to train untill it became a real bankai

Yea an most the time Byakuya was retreating against renji bankai before useing his shikai an after that he still made Byakuya drop to one knee like a boss

Tosen said inorder to become a captian one must have bankai or be approved by other captians or kill the current captian of that spot with a lot of people watching...back to the first option he did not say ur bankai or spirtual pressure have to be super strong he just said one must have bankai while three existing captians an Yama watch them perform it.

 

[Forbidden Tale]

1. Of course and that Ichigo is far stronger than Byakuya or Toshiro.
2. I would like to see where you came up with that "fact", and correct me if i'm wrong but i don't remember that Byakuya have some feats that make him smarter than Toshiro.
3. When i said "compared to his" i though compared to Kira's, not Gin's or Byakuya's, it was counter to your statement "Toshiro wasn't captain level during SS arc".

4. We are talking about Tosen from SS arc, not Shinigami/Hollow Tosen in Arrancar arc.
By that logic, Hitsugaya could beat Gin if he used bankai and kill him buy HH like Tier.
Tosen's problem, Hitsugaya is genius he pretty sure also have some kido, so your point?
5. Show me "facts" you talking about?

6. Renji had Uryu as back up in that fight and as long as i remember Szley didn't even draw sword, fact is that they both was defeated by Basic Ressurection ability.
7. Kido + Speed is pretty much what you need to beat Zommari, Zommari cut him fair, so i don't think what's the point? and even through he had both abilities he was damaged, unlike Hitsugaya who didn't take much damage and again Hitsugaya fought with Tercera.
8. Maybe true, maybe not, but it would prove that Zommari is bad match up for Hitsugaya. We are talking about Power level, not versus fight.
9. Yylfordt is not real? What are you talking about? Do you even read damn manga?

10. I didn't say that he beat Byakuya, i said that he is about that level (actually i agree that Byakuya is stronger, but not that much, just little).

My captain rankings (without Unohana):

Above captain level: Yamamoto, Aizen
High captain level: Gin, Kyoraku, Ukitake
Mid captain level: Byakuya, Hitsugaya, Zaraki
Low captain level: Sui Feng, Komamura, Tosen, Mayuri

11. Ichigo had 16/17 during SS arc and Isshin leave before Ichigo was born, it's about 20 years.
Toshiro said that his bankai training was nearly over 20 years ago.
Kyoraku state that Hitsugaya will surpass him in 100 years and 1,5 years after than Hitsugaya state that his bankai is now real bankai, and since Zanp, is primary shinigami weapon it would mean that Hitsugaya don't have chance to do so.
Frow what we saw, bankai always can get stronger, for example Byakuya's bankai got stronger since training with RG it's because Asauchi reflect user and as long as user grow in power, zanpakuto (bankai) also.

12. I would say that only cool thing Renji made in that fight is moment when he said: "Today is the they when i will surpass you, ban..kai" and in the end of fight he when he tried to pierce Byakuya, all the time, Byakuya toyed with him, he just used "basic" bankai (i still think that he only used it to show difference in power and that he didn't needed ti). In the end i just think that he praised Renji for lots improvements in short time, frow what we know, Byakuya didn't even know about Renji's training for bankai.

13. And even through one must have bankai to be captain, he also must be tested by 3 captains, otherwise Renji would become captain but he didn't.

 

[kotoamatsukami]

1. Of course and that Ichigo is far stronger than Byakuya or Toshiro.
2. I would like to see where you came up with that "fact", and correct me if i'm wrong but i don't remember that Byakuya have some feats that make him smarter than Toshiro.
3. When i said "compared to his" i though compared to Kira's, not Gin's or Byakuya's, it was counter to your statement "Toshiro wasn't captain level during SS arc".

4. We are talking about Tosen from SS arc, not Shinigami/Hollow Tosen in Arrancar arc.
By that logic, Hitsugaya could beat Gin if he used bankai and kill him buy HH like Tier.
Tosen's problem, Hitsugaya is genius he pretty sure also have some kido, so your point?
5. Show me "facts" you talking about?

6. Renji had Uryu as back up in that fight and as long as i remember Szley didn't even draw sword, fact is that they both was defeated by Basic Ressurection ability.
7. Kido + Speed is pretty much what you need to beat Zommari, Zommari cut him fair, so i don't think what's the point? and even through he had both abilities he was damaged, unlike Hitsugaya who didn't take much damage and again Hitsugaya fought with Tercera.
8. Maybe true, maybe not, but it would prove that Zommari is bad match up for Hitsugaya. We are talking about Power level, not versus fight.
9. Yylfordt is not real? What are you talking about? Do you even read damn manga?

10. I didn't say that he beat Byakuya, i said that he is about that level (actually i agree that Byakuya is stronger, but not that much, just little).

My captain rankings (without Unohana):

Above captain level: Yamamoto, Aizen
High captain level: Gin, Kyoraku, Ukitake
Mid captain level: Byakuya, Hitsugaya, Zaraki
Low captain level: Sui Feng, Komamura, Tosen, Mayuri

11. Ichigo had 16/17 during SS arc and Isshin leave before Ichigo was born, it's about 20 years.
Toshiro said that his bankai training was nearly over 20 years ago.
Kyoraku state that Hitsugaya will surpass him in 100 years and 1,5 years after than Hitsugaya state that his bankai is now real bankai, and since Zanp, is primary shinigami weapon it would mean that Hitsugaya don't have chance to do so.
Frow what we saw, bankai always can get stronger, for example Byakuya's bankai got stronger since training with RG it's because Asauchi reflect user and as long as user grow in power, zanpakuto (bankai) also.

12. I would say that only cool thing Renji made in that fight is moment when he said: "Today is the they when i will surpass you, ban..kai" and in the end of fight he when he tried to pierce Byakuya, all the time, Byakuya toyed with him, he just used "basic" bankai (i still think that he only used it to show difference in power and that he didn't needed ti). In the end i just think that he praised Renji for lots improvements in short time, frow what we know, Byakuya didn't even know about Renji's training for bankai.

13. And even through one must have bankai to be captain, he also must be tested by 3 captains, otherwise Renji would become captain but he didn't.

Naw that ichigo was not that much stronger than Byakuya at that time knowing Byakuya Has gokei he would have killed ichigo the first time around if he had that move back then...Byakuya battles show how he's smarter than hitsugiya he just makes good choices in battle like how he figured to use kido to disrupt renji bankai an his battle with tsukishima an how he cut up the ground Quincy S was standing on an how if he moved the ground would fall in...

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in that link he tells renji he's not intelligent enough to lure out asnodt full power where as Byakuya himself is that's proof that he's a smart fighter..lol when did I ever say hitsugiya was not captian level?

Yea I'm talking ss arc tosen an if gin does the smart thing an keep rushing hitsugiya then no hitsugiya can't use that move cuz he won't have time to activate it..hitsugiya is a genius what genius thing has he done really? An no hitsugiya can't use kido on Byakuya level ima need proof if he can he has never been shown to use kido I believe..show facts about what?

Basic resurrection? What you mean it's still zsayle strongest form he has to draw his sword inorder to use resurrection...I mean yea Byakuya was damaged did you see zommari ability, it is haxxed hitsugiya would not even beat this guy an yea hitsugiya was barely hit cuz his ability perfectly counter halibel an physicaly she seemed weak..power level wise Byakuya is stronger than hitsugiya ginjo did say Byakuya spiritual pressure was on zaraki level or stronger...ok I thought that fight was filler but still even hitsugiya dropped after the fact an was more hurt than renji an it look like renji just over powered the guy.

You same they were the same level something like that.

Lol wait is that your captain ranking right now list if so you got things all wrong or is that ur ss arc captian list if so it's still wrong tosen belongs in the mid level did you not see his bankai? an toshiro on the low level his powers were immature back then an komomaru belongs to a mid low level one hit from his bankai an any captian would be hurt just not Yama an mabey kenpachi.

Wait when did hitsugiya say he went threw bankai training 20 years ago?..yea I know hitsugiya bankai can get way stronger than what it is now.

What you mean basic bankai? Bankai is bankai...yea Byakuya did not need to use bankai in that fight he could of just chopped renji head off with his regular sword I'm just saying with out the kido Byakuya would have not won just by useing shikai...an no Byakuya did not know about his bankai training.

What makes you think renji wanted to be a captain? he just wanted to be stronger than Byakuya that's all.

 

[Nebula]

Dang you guys are really going at it. +rep XD