#Rival

lndra

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those were not ordinary shinobi, as others have said, they all had kkg and he took them down without killing(a more difficult task to accomplish than if he was out to kill). and from the looks of it he seemed he did it with kenjutsu only.
this.

i was having this convo at NF cause people think sasuke is being nerfed but, he's keeping up with naruto just using kenjutsu without EMS/Rinnegan techniques.

i think that shows just how strong sasuke is. dude didnt even take his cape off to fight momoshiki, at this point he's just chilling.
 

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this.

i was having this convo at NF cause people think sasuke is being nerfed but, he's keeping up with naruto just using kenjutsu without EMS/Rinnegan techniques.

i think that shows just how strong sasuke is. dude didnt even take his cape off to fight momoshiki, at this point he's just chilling.
yea hes been pretty chill since vote 2. . he's go to fighting these days seems to be primarily kenjutsu. not once did he bring out soosano throughout all his clashes with kinshiki and even momoshiki until the ps/kurama fusion. and his Rinnegan remains unused except the odd ameno.
 

To Whatever

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Sasuke wasn't on steroids. If he was, why would Orochimaru be lavishing Sasuke's ingenuity? Obvious contradiction if you choose to follow this rationale.
Sasuke was on steroids since before the vote 1 fight.

Orochimaru praises Sasuke no matter what he does. That includes threatening and "killing" him...

But regardless of that he still took them out without shedding blood.
 
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lndra

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yea hes been pretty chill since vote 2. . he's go to fighting these days seems to be primarily kenjutsu. not once did he bring out soosano throughout all his clashes with kinshiki and even momoshiki until the ps/kurama fusion. and his Rinnegan remains unused except the odd ameno.
yeah it's pretty obvious that Sasuke won't go full power because he doesn't need to.

i dont wanna admit it but i dont think we'll ever see him at full power, especially if these new villains are just regular people. its a shame we never got to see them go all out just one more time as adults like when they fought JJ Madara/Kaguya/each other.
 

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Sasuke was on steroids since before the vote 1 fight.

Orochimaru praises Sasuke no matter what he does. That includes threatening and "killing" him...

But regardless of that he still took them out without shedding blood.
It depends on how you define "steroids". The pill Sasuke consumed wouldn't induce substantial growth beyond what his body is naturally capable if that's what we're assuming.
 

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Sasuke wasn't on steroids. If he was, why would Orochimaru be lavishing Sasuke's ingenuity? Obvious contradiction if you choose to follow this rationale.
Eh because the steroids don't fight by themselves..
Sasuke started using steroid since he got the bite for Curse Mark.

I don't see any contradiction because Sasuke using the steroids doesn't take away his ingenuity. After all his ingenuity would affect how best he makes use of all those Orochimaru steriods..
 
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NarutoX28

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Eh because the steroids don't fight by themselves..
Sasuke started using steroid since he got the bite for Curse Mark.

I don't see any contradiction because Sasuke using the steroids doesn't take away his ingenuity. After all his ingenuity would affect how best he makes use of all those Orochimaru steriods..
I was assuming the person was inferring that Hebi Sasuke being on drugs was the agent for Sasuke's growth which is completely false.

If you're surmising that Sasuke's immense growth was a byproduct of constant drugs or the cursed seal, you're sadly mistaken because ingenuity or more accurately, natural aptitude, does not stem from growing through borrowed powers.
 
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Darth AniCetuS

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I was assuming the person was inferring that Hebi Sasuke being on drugs was the agent for Sasuke's growth which is completely false.

If you're surmising that Sasuke's immense growth was a byproduct of constant drugs or the cursed seal, you're sadly mistaken because ingenuity or more accurately, natural aptitude, does not stem from growing through borrowed powers.
Sasuke wasn't an idiot when he was in Konoha and yet his and Naruto's growth was almost equal. He didn't get smarter all of a sudden when he went to Orochimaru. He was the same Sasuke and yet there was a difference in growth between Naruto and Sasuke after the timeskip.
And again Orochimaru promised him means to quick power. If physical training is what he was after then he could've done the same in Konoha and him saying he doesn't like to take drugs doesn't mean he didn't. He also didn't want to go to Orochimaru but he went anyway.
So I see drugs at work here but ofc you'll disagree.
 

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I was assuming the person was inferring that Hebi Sasuke being on drugs was the agent for Sasuke's growth which is completely false.

If you're surmising that Sasuke's immense growth was a byproduct of constant drugs or the cursed seal, you're sadly mistaken because ingenuity or more accurately, natural aptitude, does not stem from growing through borrowed powers.
Senseisama mentioned that Naruto needed Kurama to fight..
And I reminded him that since Sasuke left the village, he had been on Orochimaru steroids until Itachi purged him so none of them actually worked without using any external help.
Oh about his growth, saying the drugs didn't have an effect is an assumption. I mean how do you know it didn't help. Besides if it wasn't helpful, why would he receive those drugs anyway??
 

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Senseisama mentioned that Naruto needed Kurama to fight..
And I reminded him that since Sasuke left the village, he had been on Orochimaru steroids until Itachi purged him so none of them actually worked without using any external help.
Oh about his growth, saying the drugs didn't have an effect is an assumption. I mean how do you know it didn't help. Besides if it wasn't helpful, why would he receive those drugs anyway??
No, I'm saying that Sasuke never took drugs. You're again telling me that drugs used to magnify Sasuke's growth is suddenly a reflection of his natural aptitude of a ninja which makes no sense.
 

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Sasuke wasn't an idiot when he was in Konoha and yet his and Naruto's growth was almost equal. He didn't get smarter all of a sudden when he went to Orochimaru. He was the same Sasuke and yet there was a difference in growth between Naruto and Sasuke after the timeskip.
And again Orochimaru promised him means to quick power. If physical training is what he was after then he could've done the same in Konoha and him saying he doesn't like to take drugs doesn't mean he didn't. He also didn't want to go to Orochimaru but he went anyway.
So I see drugs at work here but ofc you'll disagree.
I'm referring to natural aptitude, not intelligence.

Same could be said for Naruto. If mastering chakra control was the essence of Naruto's training during the time-skip, he could've simply resided in Konoha, but instead, he went with Jiraiya simply because he was the best man for the job. Same applied to Orochimaru.

Of course I'll disagree because you're assuming borrowed powers in the form of steroids to augment one's growth beyond their natural limitations is somehow intertwined with someone's natural aptitude or talent as a ninja. That's such an outlandish claim and I'm not going to entertain it if that's what you're surmising.
 

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yeah it's pretty obvious that Sasuke won't go full power because he doesn't need to.

i dont wanna admit it but i dont think we'll ever see him at full power, especially if these new villains are just regular people. its a shame we never got to see them go all out just one more time as adults like when they fought JJ Madara/Kaguya/each other.
yup, although that makes me sad as i still hoped to see more of his arsenal

agree. they have more power as adults thus their combinations would be more powerful but the level of opponent to make that happen is the problem. i guess its up to the new gen to pick up even though i find all of them uninteresting
 

Darth AniCetuS

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I'm referring to natural aptitude, not intelligence.

Same could be said for Naruto. If mastering chakra control was the essence of Naruto's training during the time-skip, he could've simply resided in Konoha, but instead, he went with Jiraiya simply because he was the best man for the job. Same applied to Orochimaru.

Of course I'll disagree because you're assuming borrowed powers in the form of steroids to augment one's growth beyond their natural limitations is somehow intertwined with someone's natural aptitude or talent as a ninja. That's such an outlandish claim and I'm not going to entertain it if that's what you're surmising.
Its still the same even with natural aptitude. What he had in Konoha is the same what he had when he went to Orochimaru.

I get what you're saying about Naruto going with Jiraiya and the reason behind it. Sasuke went to Orochimaru to gain powers. Can you please tell me how Orochimaru trained him?

Again Sasuke's natural aptitude was already there while he was in Konoha but still Naruto was able to keep up with him. So what exactly changed when he went to Orochimaru? And these are not outlandish when the manga itself implies so.
 

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Its still the same even with natural aptitude. What he had in Konoha is the same what he had when he went to Orochimaru.

I get what you're saying about Naruto going with Jiraiya and the reason behind it. Sasuke went to Orochimaru to gain powers. Can you please tell me how Orochimaru trained him?

Again Sasuke's natural aptitude was already there while he was in Konoha but still Naruto was able to keep up with him. So what exactly changed when he went to Orochimaru? And these are not outlandish when the manga itself implies so.
I'm not sure if I quite follow. Obviously his talent is the same as it was in Konoha, but this doesn't discredit that Sasuke's natural potential as a ninja was the cornerstone for Sasuke's immense improvement, not steroids.

Given Orochimaru, it was likely that he taught him a plethora of jutsu and possibly Kinjutsu (according to Sakura and Kakashi). Sakura also proposed the usage of drugs, but this was later contradicted with Sasuke where which gives us a clear implication that Sasuke never took drugs to begin with.

What changed when he met Orochimaru? I don't know, the same thing that changed when Naruto encountered Kakashi. Both were capable of teaching their disciples effectively which enabled them to draw out a lot of their dormant power. Even Team Kurenai as well as Team Asuma were staggered by Kakashi's ability to shape Naruto into a splendid ninja and the same pertained to Orochimaru and Sasuke. I sincerely hope you're not going to apply a double standard here.
 

Darth AniCetuS

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I'm not sure if I quite follow. Obviously his talent is the same as it was in Konoha, but this doesn't discredit that Sasuke's natural potential as a ninja was the cornerstone for Sasuke's immense improvement, not steroids.
True he was naturally gifted but his growth under Orochimaru does come under scrutiny based on what we've seen when he was in Konoha and when he went to Oro.

Given Orochimaru, it was likely that he taught him a plethora of jutsu and possibly Kinjutsu (according to Sakura and Kakashi). Sakura also proposed the usage of drugs, but this was later contradicted with Sasuke where which gives us a clear implication that Sasuke never took drugs to begin with.
It was not proposed by Sakura but deduced by Tsunade that he's taken some type of strength enhancing drugs. And Sasuke only said that he doesn't like to take any from of drugs which does not confirm that he didn't take them. Just like he didn't want to go to Oro but went anyway. Now you're saying Oro taught him Kinjutsu which I agree. But a lot of jutsus? I don't think so based on what I've seen Sasuke using throughout the manga. He only used fire and lightning based jutsus. Oro may have helped to improve them.
Now the question is that if training is all he wanted then there were better candidates to train him like Gai to train him in Taijutsu. Heck he could've learnt the 8 Gates technique considering he picked on Lee's taijutsu so well. Kakashi could've helped in developing new jutsus and teaching other stuff. So why did he choose to go to Orochimaru? The answer is simple, its to gain power quickly. Powers like CM with which Orochimaru tempted Sasuke and which is kind of or similar to a drug enhancement. Sasuke knew and didn't like what he was signing up for but he went on with it anyway because beating Itachi was his priority asap and for that he was willing to do anything. So I don't think he'd refuse a drug enhancement if it helped him gain power fast even if he disliked it. He didn't like CM as well but eventually accepted it.

What changed when he met Orochimaru? I don't know, the same thing that changed when Naruto encountered Kakashi. Both were capable of teaching their disciples effectively which enabled them to draw out a lot of their dormant power. Even Team Kurenai as well as Team Asuma were staggered by Kakashi's ability to shape Naruto into a splendid ninja and the same pertained to Orochimaru and Sasuke. I sincerely hope you're not going to apply a double standard here.
I agree that Kakashi and Oro both were quite capable to train there students well. That's one more reason to believe that if Sasuke wanted only physical and ninjutsu training then Kakashi and Gai could've done much better than what Orochimaru did. Not to mention all the sharingan training Sasuke could've done with Kakashi. Kakashi also paid more attention to Sasuke's training cuz he considered Sasuke a lot like him. Even with all that Sasuke chose to go with Orochimaru after tasting the power of CM because it improved his power levels so much and so quick. So the argument that Sasuke went just to train under Oro doesn't fit right when Oro himself advertised enhancements in the form of CM.
So there are no double standards on my part. I gave you an honest explanation on why I think Sasuke took drugs and now I sincerely hope you'd be honest with your answer.
 

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True he was naturally gifted but his growth under Orochimaru does come under scrutiny based on what we've seen when he was in Konoha and when he went to Oro.
There's nothing polarizing about it given that Sasuke's development as a ninja when he was 7 is eclipsed by the improvements he's made through Kakashi and Orochimaru. Using this as a decisive piece of evidence is flawed given that a genius's power is also dependent on training and various different factors. Lee and Naruto are congruous with that fundamental principle with Naruto's potential especially skyrocketing after his training with Kakashi even moreso with Jiraiya even though his natural potential remains the same.

It was not proposed by Sakura but deduced by Tsunade that he's taken some type of strength enhancing drugs. And Sasuke only said that he doesn't like to take any from of drugs which does not confirm that he didn't take them. Just like he didn't want to go to Oro but went anyway. Now you're saying Oro taught him Kinjutsu which I agree. But a lot of jutsus? I don't think so based on what I've seen Sasuke using throughout the manga. He only used fire and lightning based jutsus. Oro may have helped to improve them.
Now the question is that if training is all he wanted then there were better candidates to train him like Gai to train him in Taijutsu. Heck he could've learnt the 8 Gates technique considering he picked on Lee's taijutsu so well. Kakashi could've helped in developing new jutsus and teaching other stuff. So why did he choose to go to Orochimaru? The answer is simple, its to gain power quickly. Powers like CM with which Orochimaru tempted Sasuke and which is kind of or similar to a drug enhancement. Sasuke knew and didn't like what he was signing up for but he went on with it anyway because beating Itachi was his priority asap and for that he was willing to do anything. So I don't think he'd refuse a drug enhancement if it helped him gain power fast even if he disliked it. He didn't like CM as well but eventually accepted it.
This is very verbose, so I will briefly address this:

1. It actually does. Sasuke was revolted by it, so it's more than likely an indication that Tsunade was wrong. Tsunade surmised that Sasuke did, but in all actuality, she had no grasp of Sasuke's potential. Orochimaru knew of Sasuke's capabilities yet acknowledged that the improvements made was due to his talent as a ninja. These two components are decisive pieces of evidence that leads us to the conclusion that Sasuke did not consume drugs.

2. Who knows. I'm not keen on explaining this given that it's inexplicable as to how Orochimaru trained Sasuke and trying to debate this will just prolong the argument unnecessarily.

3. Cursed Seal isn't anything like a drug given that it's dependent on the user's power. Drugs such as steroids are evidently used to bolster's one's improvements beyond normal means which was not the case with Sasuke as explained before. The Cursed Seal supplements Sasuke with power by enabling him to exhaust even more chakra at a given time, but it does not induce significantly greater growth beyond normal means. His rate of maturation was solely based on his own training and potential, not on drugs.

I agree that Kakashi and Oro both were quite capable to train there students well. That's one more reason to believe that if Sasuke wanted only physical and ninjutsu training then Kakashi and Gai could've done much better than what Orochimaru did. Not to mention all the sharingan training Sasuke could've done with Kakashi. Kakashi also paid more attention to Sasuke's training cuz he considered Sasuke a lot like him. Even with all that Sasuke chose to go with Orochimaru after tasting the power of CM because it improved his power levels so much and so quick. So the argument that Sasuke went just to train under Oro doesn't fit right when Oro himself advertised enhancements in the form of CM.
So there are no double standards on my part. I gave you an honest explanation on why I think Sasuke took drugs and now I sincerely hope you'd be honest with your answer.
I'm not sure why you deliberately misconstrued the argument I proposed.

My point was that shinobi have exhibited greater growth depending on their teacher and this was explicitly shown with Kakashi and Jiraiya even though Naruto does not consume drugs. Given this, Sasuke's erratic rate of maturation isn't indicative of Sasuke consuming drugs as Orochimaru could've elicited even more tremendous growth and he certainly could given that Orochimaru's prestige as a Sannin entails greater experience and Orochimaru's repertoire and vast knowledge eclipses Kakashi's as well.

Orochimaru simply had more to bring to the table than Kakashi did.
 

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It depends on how you define "steroids". The pill Sasuke consumed wouldn't induce substantial growth beyond what his body is naturally capable if that's what we're assuming.


The pill Sasuke consumed enhanced his Base Stats to a level he could never hope to attain at that age and it can be easily argued that Base VOTE Sasuke is substantially superior to his CM1 self before taking the Pill which is a massive jump in stats when considering the boost CM1 gives him.

-In regards to Sasuke taking drugs , its clear that he did imo when considering the fact that it was noted that Oro gave him drugs to build resistance to poison so its very clear to me that Oro gave him other forms of physical enhancers throughout their time together as it easily follows the context clues in the story illustrated by Team7.
 
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-In regards to Sasuke taking drugs , its clear that he did imo when considering the fact that it was noted that Oro gave him drugs to build resistance to poison so its very clear to me that Oro gave him other forms of physical enhancers throughout their time together as it easily follows the context clues in the story illustrated by Team7.
Same could be said for the opposing view as well.
 
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