RG Sasuke vs. DMS Kakashi and DMS Obito

[BlacLord™]

Location: Centre of Konoha

Scenario 1: Sauce has all shown feats
Scenario 2: He has the rest of Deva's abilities (Shinra Tensei, Bansho Ten'in and can make those rods.)

 

[wael reda]

the due win ,dms kakashi can most likely solo

 

[Selan]

Today's chapter changes nothing. Kamui GG or Kamui Raikiri GG was, it still is the same.

 

[Bogard]

Well now i can finally accept Sasuke's superiority over Kakashi. Looks like he controls the Rinnegan perfectly now

 

[Valhorus]

I think they are too much for Sasuke .

 

[Gold Lightning]

How does today's chapter change anything? No defence against kamui. Ps slices through CT. Then they can both double their kamui speed when used in conjunction with one another, leaving Sasuke little room to react.

 

[Takos]

Kakashi solos high diff.

 

[Bogard]

Kamui snipe is the duo's only chance at winning and that would depend if Sasuke's swaping technique is active or not. If it's active, i don't see why he couldn't avoid. Besides that:

1- Obito is a close to non-factor
2- They can't handle Sasuke's Rinnegan genjutsu
3- If one of them is in range, he will end up like Madara Jin
4- We've already seen Sasuke having trouble to handle multiple Chibaku tensei, so Kakashi will be in the same situation regardless of whether his Susanoo is as strong as Sasuke's or not and he can't kamui all of them as well. He will have to get out of the way with teleportation, but for that he has to become solid. Sasuke can use that chance to swap and finish him off if he is in range

So basically the duo only has roughly 1 or 2 chances to win out of ten. While i found Kakashi stronger yesterday, with today's chapter, Sasuke is overall superior now especially since it's highly possible we don't even know the full extent of his Rinnegan yet

 

[Takos]

Kamui snipe is the duo's only chance at winning and that would depend if Sasuke's swaping technique is active or not. If it's active, i don't see why he couldn't avoid. Besides that:

1- Obito is a close to non-factor
2- They can't handle Sasuke's Rinnegan genjutsu
3- If one of them is in range, he will end up like Madara Jin
4- We've already seen Sasuke having trouble to handle multiple Chibaku tensei, so Kakashi will be in the same situation regardless of whether his Susanoo is as strong as Sasuke's or not and he can't kamui all of them as well. He will have to get out of the way with teleportation, but for that he has to become solid. Sasuke can use that chance to swap and finish him off if he is in range

So basically the duo only has roughly 1 or 2 chances to win out of ten. While i found Kakashi stronger yesterday, with today's chapter, Sasuke is overall superior now especially since it's highly possible we don't even know the full extent of his Rinnegan yet

Regarding your statement about them not being able to handle Sasuke's Rinnegan genjutsu - this is a tricky part.
From what we've seen so far I'm going to make a bold hypothesis that genjutsu used on bijuu can't be used, or at least doesn't work in the same way, on humans.

The three characters we've seen putting bijuu under genjutsu are Madara, Obito and now Sasuke. What's interesting is that they did it with utter ease, by just looking into their eyes.
What's also interesting is that they never used such a powerful genjutsu on their human opponents, even though they had many occassions. Not only that, the only genjutsu Obito tried to cast on Kakashi was countered by him. Does it mean it's more difficult to put Kakashi under genjutsu than a bijuu? Or maybe, as I said, it works differently (or can't be used) on humans.
Apart from that, we've seen Obito controlling the Mizukage, but the genjutsu he used then was cast off-panel, so there's no indication that its usage was as simple as looking into his eyes.

So I'm not going to assume that Sasuke's Rinnegan genjutsu is something that Kakashi and Obito can't handle.

 

[Bogard]

The Rinnegan genjutsu Sasuke used this chapter is a miniature version of infinite tsukuymo that is affecting the whole world, so nope it doesn't concern tailed beasts only

According to Itachi, Sasuke had no hope to break his Tsukuyomi without the Mangekyou

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You can even notice that later on he said as well that eye techniques don't work against people with similar eyes

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1- Only Sharingan can counter Sharingan
2- Only Mangekyou can counter Mangekyou
3- Only Rinnegan can counter Rinnengan

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Kakashi and Obito lack Rinnegan, so they logically can't counter it. Now what i'm curious about is Naruto's counter to it. Considering that they will fight against each other, Kishi will likely create a counter(maybe the tailed beasts that are inside him)

 

[Takos]

The Rinnegan genjutsu Sasuke used this chapter is a miniature version of infinite tsukuymo that is affecting the whole world, so nope it doesn't concern tailed beasts only

According to Itachi, Sasuke had no hope to break his Tsukuyomi without the Mangekyou

You must be registered for see images

You can even notice that later on he said as well that eye techniques don't work against people with similar eyes

You must be registered for see images

1- Only Sharingan can counter Sharingan
2- Only Mangekyou can counter Mangekyou
3- Only Rinnegan can counter Rinnengan

You must be registered for see images

Kakashi and Obito lack Rinnegan, so they logically can't counter it. Now what i'm curious about is Naruto's counter to it. Considering that they will fight against each other, Kishi will likely create a counter(maybe the tailed beasts that are inside him)

That's actually plausible to some extent, though I'm fairly sure that a regular Sharingan genjutsu is not something that is unbrokable by anyone without the Sharingan or better eyes. Otherwise Kakashi would neg diff folks like Zabuza, Deidara, Kakuzu, etc with just his Sharingan genjutsu.

Also, I treat Itachi's statement as a hyperbole - it is clear that you can cast Sharingan genjutsu on someone who also has a Sharingan, as was shown multiple times in the manga. Of course it might give you some resistance, but that's not everything. I'm rather sceptical that Zabuza arc Sasuke would be able to counter Kakashi's regular Sharingan genjutsu just because he got a Sharingan.

Finally, it still doesn't explain the fact that neither Madara nor Obito even tried to put folk like Naruto or Guy under genjutsu and the only explanation I see to this is that they knew it would either be ineffective or ar least not very reliable.

 

[Bogard]

My bad on the Sharingan countering Sharingan example. My point remain however that only MS can counter Tsukuyomi and like Sasuke says, only Rinnegan can counter Rinnengan's genjutsu, so anyone without Rinnegan should be affected, which is the reason why the whole world is in a genjutsu right now. Kakashi, Gai and co already trained to fight while avoiding eye contact.

The 5 Kages were also fighting while avoiding eye contact against Madara(Onoki suggested them to do so anyway) and Ay was only caught because he was careless. Experienced ninjas already know how to fight Uchihas while avoiding eye contact, and for me their only way to avoid Rinnegan genjutsu is with fighting while avoiding eye contact. Kakashi already showed the skills to do so, but i'm doubtful someone as dependent on his eyes like Obito was will do this especially if they lack knowledge

 

[Takos]

My bad on the Sharingan countering Sharingan example. My point remain however that only MS can counter Tsukuyomi and like Sasuke says, only Rinnegan can counter Rinnengan's genjutsu, so anyone without Rinnegan should be affected, which is the reason why the whole world is in a genjutsu right now. Kakashi, Gai and co already trained to fight while avoiding eye contact.

The 5 Kages were also fighting while avoiding eye contact against Madara(Onoki suggested them to do so anyway) and Ay was only caught because he was careless. Experienced ninjas already know how to fight Uchihas while avoiding eye contact, and for me their only way to avoid Rinnegan genjutsu is with fighting while avoiding eye contact. Kakashi already showed the skills to do so, but i'm doubtful someone as dependent on his eyes like Obito was will do this especially if they lack knowledge

That's probably true.
As my last points I could mention two things:

-that Madara's genjutsu on Ay was not the one he used on Kyuubi (he cast genjutsu on Kyuubi to control it, while Ay simply fell asleep when struct with it), but Madara was not giving it all he's got while fighting the kage, so this argument is not my best one

-that Obito didn't bother to cast any genjutsu on Minato, who was neither trained in fighting without making an eye-contact nor did he have any trait that could have made him resistant to it, like a Sharingan

 

[Bogard]

That's probably true.
As my last points I could mention two things:

-that Madara's genjutsu on Ay was not the one he used on Kyuubi (he cast genjutsu on Kyuubi to control it, while Ay simply fell asleep when struct with it), but Madara was not giving it all he's got while fighting the kage, so this argument is not my best one

-that Obito didn't bother to cast any genjutsu on Minato, who was neither trained in fighting without making an eye-contact nor did he have any trait that could have made him resistant to it, like a Sharingan

- Doesn't matter whether it was the same or not. The fact remain that under Onoki's orders, the Kages were fighting while avoiding eye contact. Hell Zabuza himself avoided eye contact against Kakashi during the second fight despite having a thick mist as a vision shield

- Completely baseless. If anything, Minato does know how to fight without eye contact considering he avoided eye contact in close range when he stopped Obito's control on Kyubi. The fact he even had a counter-sealing of Sharingan control speaks volume on his amount of knowledge, not to mention he was a Hokage in a village full of Uchihas and the one who made Konoha achieve victories in war period. Obviously Minato would know how to fight Uchihas when even outsiders like Chiyo were creating plans to fight against it or someone like Gai found a counter-measure just by sparring with a non-Uchiha Sharingan user.

 

[wael reda]

Kamui snipe is the duo's only chance at winning and that would depend if Sasuke's swaping technique is active or not. If it's active, i don't see why he couldn't avoid. Besides that:

1- Obito is a close to non-factor
2- They can't handle Sasuke's Rinnegan genjutsu
3- If one of them is in range, he will end up like Madara Jin
4- We've already seen Sasuke having trouble to handle multiple Chibaku tensei, so Kakashi will be in the same situation regardless of whether his Susanoo is as strong as Sasuke's or not and he can't kamui all of them as well. He will have to get out of the way with teleportation, but for that he has to become solid. Sasuke can use that chance to swap and finish him off if he is in range

So basically the duo only has roughly 1 or 2 chances to win out of ten. While i found Kakashi stronger yesterday, with today's chapter, Sasuke is overall superior now especially since it's highly possible we don't even know the full extent of his Rinnegan yet

You are mistaken about kamui chances

If sasuke's s/t is in its cool down ,there is no way he can avoid kamui snipe ,assuming that he can react to kamui and avoid it by his s/t jutsu if it wasn't in cool down
Let's assume that both kakashi and sasuke can react to the other's s/t by teleporting(to sasuke )or intangibility(to kakashi ),fair enough?
Then there are 2scenarios
1.sasuke attacks first with s/t ,but kakashi reacts and uses intangibility ,then sasuke's s/t will be in cool down and kamui snipe ends him
2.kakashi attacks first with kamui snipe but sasuke reacts and teleports away ,then his s/t will be in cool down and the next kamui snipe ends him

So ,kakashi's chances is much better than sasuke's since kakashi's kamui snipe has no cool down while sasuke's s/t has

If DMS obito is given DMS kakashi feats ,then this applies on obito too

I am sure that you realize that all sasuke other techs have nothing to do with the intangibility ,while kakashi other techs still can threaten sasuke while his s/t is in cooldown like kamui raiki,doubled teleportation(which was at least as fast as kaguya's teleportation)

About rinningan ginjutsu ,I amnot sure if kakashi and obito can break it or not but as I remember bijus can be controlled by ms ,if they couldn't break it ,sasuke 's chances of winning would get better ,however they can evade eye contact if they were full aware

 

[Zavage10]

You are mistaken about kamui chances

If sasuke's s/t is in its cool down ,there is no way he can avoid kamui snipe ,assuming that he can react to kamui and avoid it by his s/t jutsu if it wasn't in cool down
Let's assume that both kakashi and sasuke can react to the other's s/t by teleporting(to sasuke )or intangibility(to kakashi ),fair enough?
Then there are 2scenarios
1.sasuke attacks first with s/t ,but kakashi reacts and uses intangibility ,then sasuke's s/t will be in cool down and kamui snipe ends him
2.kakashi attacks first with kamui snipe but sasuke reacts and teleports away ,then his s/t will be in cool down and the next kamui snipe ends him

So ,kakashi's chances is much better than sasuke's since kakashi's kamui snipe has no cool down while sasuke's s/t has

If DMS obito is given DMS kakashi feats ,then this applies on obito too

I am sure that you realize that all sasuke other techs have nothing to do with the intangibility ,while kakashi other techs still can threaten sasuke while his s/t is in cooldown like kamui raiki,doubled teleportation(which was at least as fast as kaguya's teleportation)

About rinningan ginjutsu ,I amnot sure if kakashi and obito can break it or not but as I remember bijus can be controlled by ms ,if they couldn't break it ,sasuke 's chances of winning would get better ,however they can evade eye contact if they were full aware

Sasuke's genjutsu doesn't need eye contact.

 

[Bogard]

Sasuke's genjutsu doesn't need eye contact.

Yes it does. Rikudo said he took control of them in a single glance

 

[AlphaScythian]

Kamui snipe GG.
Intangibility negates genjutsu.
Izanagi too.

 

[King Of Pop]

Rinnegan genjutu gg. A single glance and 9 entities were put in genjutsu at once. This two have no chance once sasuke catches them in it.

 

[Raykyryn]

Rinnegan genjutu gg. A single glance and 9 entities were put in genjutsu at once. This two have no chance once sasuke catches them in it.

Please. Even an MS genjustu is affective against Bijues.