Reminder on Ukraine

[Pumpkin Ninja]

Reminder that Ukraine's government has essentially been propped up by the U.S government in 2014. Its violent stance on Russia has been encouraged by them as well as part of the U.S's general failed foreign policies. Economic sanctions on Russia are a grave mistake as it will force Russia away from the West and allow it to embrace China fuller. This means that China will also be emboldened in East-Asia and less deterred from the West. The outcome is a new cold-war era and we are far more unstable than we've been in decades.

Europe's support of Ukraine as well in arming them is a mistake made in fear and will only accelerate the issues. Europe should have been the voice of reason to America's stupid politicians and even more stupid people but they've chosen to be reactionaries only who will tow the U.S's line.

The media has and still shows even in the age of the internet, it resorts to sycophancy and you should not trust it whatsoever. It lacks critical thought and is saddening to see how useless it is.

This could have all been avoided had the U.S chose to not get involved in 2013 and can still be avoided if the U.S lifts sanctions, forces Ukraine to settle their differences with Russia, and Europe chooses to react more calculated. Now this may not lead to anything immediate but world order will be a lot more unstable and I predict Russia to be a lot more bold in the future as their economy crumbles and Putin ages. Any questions?

 

[Urda]

The Mainstream Media (MSM) here in the US only cares about ratings and profits. They will go along with the US propaganda and will never correct their mistakes/misleading coverage.

 

[Avani]

International politics is always full of hypocrisy and rhetoric. I wish Russia and Ukraine manage to talk it out instead of prolonging the war. It's like Covid had not caused enough damage to economies that they had to have this fight on top of it.

Any questions?

Basically you are saying it's Ukrain turn to be a pawn for western powers to take out Putin. West will not set it's boot on the ground, but use it as a battle ground to fight Russia. And Ukrain asking for fast track membership of EU etc is haggling over the costs? Did I get it right?

 

[Pumpkin Ninja]

International politics is always full of hypocrisy and rhetoric. I wish Russia and Ukraine manage to talk it out instead of prolonging the war. It's like Covid had not caused enough damage to economies that they had to have this fight on top of it.




Basically you are saying it's Ukrain turn to be a pawn for western powers to take out Putin. West will not set it's boot on the ground, but use it as a battle ground to fight Russia. And Ukrain asking for fast track membership of EU etc is haggling over the costs? Did I get it right?

Sort of, the U.S foreign policy to me seems as though they want the world to be unipolar with their values instilled and no other nations can ruin the order or cause chaos. Because of this, nations like Russia and China, which pose a threat to that order, will always be a target. I'm not by any means saying Russia or China are a source of good or better than the U.S but this is how geopolitics works. So Ukraine becoming a nation of Western values that is allied and relies on the West would mean that Russia's time is running out even quicker. This idea scares Putin, who is not an irrational leader, despite what the recent western media is all parroting (he's driven by Russian nationalism and is calculating).

Ukraine has a messy history and culture in regards to Russia, it was never completely black and white on whether their country leaned towards the West or towards Russia. They're even filled with ultra-nationalists as well that clash very hard with the Russian leaning side of Ukraine, and the West aided them disregarding consequences. I'm not entirely sure though, how much is a result of outdated U.S policy dating back from the Soviet Union which allowed for this situation to escalate unwillingly, and how much of this is an overarching policy of the U.S but it seems to point to a theme. Another factor at play is incompetency from Western politicians, fear was a large part of it because it's true that the West hasn't seen an invasion in Europe like that on that scale in a while (aside from NATO, lol).

In 2014, there was a phone call leaked from the U.S secretary of State's assistant where they were discussing which Ukrainian politicians were fit to lead after the revolution. It's not a smoking gun but it's pretty damning to the whole notion that Ukraine should fight for its democracy and the West should completely antagonize Russia for and create instability. What message does it send to Russia and China that the U.S can call all these nations that rely on Russia, at a moments notice, to keep them out of the world economy? It's a message that will come back to bite the world. Putin obviously miscalculated how much the West would overreact.

Here is the transcript of the phone-call from the BBC itself, an article from 2014:

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[Avani]

In 2014, there was a phone call leaked from the U.S secretary of State's assistant where they were discussing which Ukrainian politicians were fit to lead after the revolution. It's not a smoking gun but it's pretty damning to the whole notion that Ukraine should fight for its democracy and the West should completely antagonize Russia for and create instability. What message does it send to Russia and China that the U.S can call all these nations that rely on Russia, at a moments notice, to keep them out of the world economy? It's a message that will come back to bite the world. Putin obviously miscalculated how much the West would overreact.

Here is the transcript of the phone-call from the BBC itself, an article from 2014:

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Western powers started two world wars in colonial times dragging in colonised countries in to their war and making them bear the costs.

(e.g. total 2.5 million Indian soldiers fought and at least 74,187 Indian soldiers died during the two WW for Britain. By the end of WW £1.25bn of Britain's total £3bn war debt was owed to India, which was merely the tip of the iceberg that was colonial exploitation.
£100 million in 1917 in bonds to the British coffers from India. Three quarters of this was raised by war loans or bonds. Some years back UK treasury said it would soon pay back its war debt. “The Treasury will redeem the outstanding £1.9 billion of debt from 3½% War Loan on Monday 9 March 2015.” it announced. The UK debt management office told HT that as far “as they knew” the bonds in question were sold to British public and were not related to India. British Chancellor of the Exchequer, George Osborne said “It is a sign of our fiscal credibility and it’s a good deal for this generation of taxpayers. It’s also another fitting way to remember that extraordinary sacrifice of the past”. Obviously paying anything back was never on cards. )

But back then battle ground was Europe itself. Since they have learned to use other nations for their mussel flexing. It seems like they will make sure that war in Ukrain is prolonged and still want to drag in other neutral countries for their next wars.

 

[Legendary Saiyan]

I legit just watched a Smile2Jannah video regarding this situation. Just when you think USA wouldn't stop going through countries and shit....

 

[Avani]

You tube prompted this to me today. Old video but relevant...

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Not supporting the Russian attack. But the whole situation might be avoided if so many other countries didn't insert their noses in it.

 

[salamander uchiha]

I can't say I disagree.

 

[dead0]

Putin's full speech

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[kimb]

Holy shit what a bad take. Treating sovereign nations as objects for larger powers to lay claim over the associations of and to justify the delusional paranoias of a dying empire is holding water an excessively charitable amount of water that defies reason. Mind you, Russia isn't using your excuse of Ukraine getting support from the U.S., or the other excuses presented in this thread of NATO or EU expansion as the front for this invasion. They've painted a narrative of a GENOCIDE being committed against ethnic minorities in the Donbas region, along with scapegoating the ASOV Battalion and very real, but laughably marginal presence of nazism within the Ukrainian government as the justification of not just an annexing of the territories that "claimed their independence" (through no subterfuge of Russia backed separatist forces and propagandistic gray noise ofc), but a full on invasion of Ukraine, with the shelling of civilian residents and hospitals, and holocaust memorials; oh the irony.


That on it's own is bad enough, but then, to have people who for some reason are sipping the same propagandistic misinfo slurry of bullshit that's allowed Russia to justify their full on invasion and posturing the situation as if Russia's invasion was the U.S. doing. As if Ukraine has zero sovereignty in this equation, as if NATO is an imperialist force that invades other countries and isn't something countries request to join out of the clear economic benefit that comes with becoming a NATO member.

Quoting OP "In 2014, there was a phone call leaked from the U.S secretary of State's assistant where they were discussing which Ukrainian politicians were fit to lead after the revolution. It's not a smoking gun but" Then WHY the **** are you talking about as if it's evidence of anything? The transcripts of the conversation do not even point in the direction of some sort of puppet government being installed.
(the transcripts for context)

You must be registered for see links

Btw, the notion that Ukraine has been propped up by the U.S.' is a Russian state talking point that uses the facts of direct aid to paint a more nefarious framing of the transparent relationship between the U.S. and Ukraine. people usually throw around the 5B Ukraine received from the U.S. as "not a smoking gun, but" point of conjecture, despite where the funds have been spent and distributed (in agriculture, infrastructure, defense, and energy) being a public matter.

Anyone going beyond a descriptive chain of events that involve the U.S., Russia, Ukraine, and NATO, and frame the situation as the fault of "western involvement" are engaging in apologia for the delusions of Putin, are acting as useful idiots for a oligarchic authoritarian state, and NEED to remove that boot from their mouth.

P.S. Screw America, Screw NATO, and Screw Russia, but especially Screw Russia.

 

[Pumpkin Ninja]

Holy shit what a bad take. Treating sovereign nations as objects for larger powers to lay claim over the associations of and to justify the delusional paranoias of a dying empire is holding water an excessively charitable amount of water that defies reason. Mind you, Russia isn't using your excuse of Ukraine getting support from the U.S., or the other excuses presented in this thread of NATO or EU expansion as the front for this invasion. They've painted a narrative of a GENOCIDE being committed against ethnic minorities in the Donbas region, along with scapegoating the ASOV Battalion and very real, but laughably marginal presence of nazism within the Ukrainian government as the justification of not just an annexing of the territories that "claimed their independence" (through no subterfuge of Russia backed separatist forces and propagandistic gray noise ofc), but a full on invasion of Ukraine, with the shelling of civilian residents and hospitals, and holocaust memorials; oh the irony.


That on it's own is bad enough, but then, to have people who for some reason are sipping the same propagandistic misinfo slurry of bullshit that's allowed Russia to justify their full on invasion and posturing the situation as if Russia's invasion was the U.S. doing. As if Ukraine has zero sovereignty in this equation, as if NATO is an imperialist force that invades other countries and isn't something countries request to join out of the clear economic benefit that comes with becoming a NATO member.

Quoting OP "In 2014, there was a phone call leaked from the U.S secretary of State's assistant where they were discussing which Ukrainian politicians were fit to lead after the revolution. It's not a smoking gun but" Then WHY the **** are you talking about as if it's evidence of anything? The transcripts of the conversation do not even point in the direction of some sort of puppet government being installed.
(the transcripts for context)

You must be registered for see links

Btw, the notion that Ukraine has been propped up by the U.S.' is a Russian state talking point that uses the facts of direct aid to paint a more nefarious framing of the transparent relationship between the U.S. and Ukraine. people usually throw around the 5B Ukraine received from the U.S. as "not a smoking gun, but" point of conjecture, despite where the funds have been spent and distributed (in agriculture, infrastructure, defense, and energy) being a public matter.

Anyone going beyond a descriptive chain of events that involve the U.S., Russia, Ukraine, and NATO, and frame the situation as the fault of "western involvement" are engaging in apologia for the delusions of Putin, are acting as useful idiots for a oligarchic authoritarian state, and NEED to remove that boot from their mouth.

P.S. Screw America, Screw NATO, and Screw Russia, but especially Screw Russia.

edit: Nevermind, it's not worth it for me atm to use my energy arguing on the internet. Thanks for your input though.

 

[kimb]

edit: Nevermind, it's not worth it for me atm to use my energy arguing on the internet. Thanks for your input though.

id say this is a major cop out considering your willingness to debate and engage with arguments "on the internet" in the past, spanning the last 10 years.

My message to everyone who pops in to this thread; being anti-american is not a position.

 

[Pumpkin Ninja]

id say this is a major cop out considering your willingness to debate and engage with arguments "on the internet" in the past, spanning the last 10 years.

My message to everyone who pops in to this thread; being anti-american is not a position.

I started posting when I was 14 and engaging in politics is a habit I'm trying to break. I actually typed out my reply and then changed it after posting. Was dumb of me to even make the thread but couldn't help myself...

 

[HowDidIGetPrem]

That's some nice Russian propaganda. Ukraine "settling" its differences with Russia means becoming a part of Russia or puppet state for it, so it's really just a roundabout way of saying to let Ukraine be swallowed. I don't know how you can call the reaction sycophantic while supporting the sycophant position of letting Russia take a whole country without punishment.​

 

[Avani]

id say this is a major cop out considering your willingness to debate and engage with arguments "on the internet" in the past, spanning the last 10 years.

My message to everyone who pops in to this thread; being anti-american is not a position.

It's not anti Americanism. Nor it's to support Russian adventures or atrocities. It's just knowing how the world powers behave and what an alley can get away with if they are in the "right" camp at the right time.

One can write an essay to support their POV and opinion. They are abstaining from saying a lot, because they are mindful of the innocent victims in Ukraine and ongoing war right now. Because at such a time reminding actions of certain other countries is not much helpful. Don't push it.