Real Reason why Fukasaku said "Naruto surpassed those who came before him"

[Minator93]

Re: Real Reason why Fukasaku said "Naruto surpassed those who came before him"

That makes no sense. Naruto only did that because he couldn't fuse.
Did minato have a kyuubi stopping him from fusing with pa for a permanent sm? No.
Try again. Your logic makes 0 sense.

Lel clones are better than fusing, since Ma and Pa operate on their own. It's obvious that Minato with fusion is even more powerful!

Yeah this is the most possible theory

Thanks

 

[TaBaYo]

Re: Real Reason why Fukasaku said "Naruto surpassed those who came before him"

I agree with the Sage mode but te superiority theory, i dont buy it. It wasn't clone Fusaku was talking about.
Remember when Naruto was training, he got rings around is eye without any frog like features. That was to signify that he could absorb more sage chakra than Jiraiya. Minato does not have to rings like Naruto has, that's the difference.
Minato has already shown that he can gather chakra during his fight with nine tails, what is to say that wasn't see chakra.

 

[KidGamer65]

Re: Real Reason why Fukasaku said "Naruto surpassed those who came before him"

Alive minato had no SM

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His chakra wasnt enough, he has it due to edo tensei.

So, Minato went through the whole process of attaining Sage Mode but he couldn't use it while alive? If he couldn't use it because of chakra issues, he wouldn't have been able to learn it. .

You can pretty much consider anything else about Minato not having SM retconned. I do think that it makes no sense though.

Bolded part, I can debunk easily your claim that Perfect Sage equal knowing and being able to use Frog Katas.

Proof:



^^ Naruto having perfect Sage mode

then:



^^ See Frog Katas is final step of learning Senjutsu. Entering Sage mode is only part of it.

I keep my claim that Minato can not use Frog Katas. TO be honest I believe although Minato was able to enter perfect Sage mode... then he is still unfamilliar with this mode perks as: enhanced danger sensing, better reaction time even although all of them are passive traits so he has them but he may be unaware of them so he can not utilize them well in battle.

The most difference lays in Naruto being able to use FRS which in Sage mode is super powerfull. Naruto can enter Sennin mode faster then Minato, Naruto can uses clones in Sage mode and use them to enter Sennin mode and the last very important could be that Naruto knows Frog Katas and Minato doesn't

Feel free to disagree but this is how I see it

If Minato knows Sage Mode, he would have learned everything Naruto learned because that is the basic process. Are you telling me that he learned how to enter Sage Mode but didn't learn anything else about it? Even though that is a normal procedure?

lol....Why am I not surprised you are biased towards Naruto?

-Minato not knowing FRS doesn't have anything to do with his Sage Mode.

-Using clones to enter SM is a basic thing to do if you can enter SM to begin with. Its not a special method only Naruto can use.

-Frog Kata is a Perfect Toad SM ability learned when trained by Fukasaku, fact. Minato is a Perfect Sage, meaning he was trained by Fukasaku, unless you are telling me he learned SM on his own?

You didn't debunk anything, in fact you showed me how bias you are towards Naruto, hence all the terrible reasons why you believe his SM is inferior. Go ahead and keep your opinions; no matter how biased and flawed they are.

 

[KCMNaruto]

Re: Real Reason why Fukasaku said "Naruto surpassed those who came before him"

So, Minato went through the whole process of attaining Sage Mode but he couldn't use it while alive? If he couldn't use it because of chakra issues, he wouldn't have been able to learn it. .

You can pretty much consider anything else about Minato not having SM retconned. I do think that it makes no sense though.



If Minato knows Sage Mode, he would have learned everything Naruto learned because that is the basic process. Are you telling me that he learned how to enter Sage Mode but didn't learn anything else about it? Even though that is a normal procedure?

lol....Why am I not surprised you are biased towards Naruto?

-Minato not knowing FRS doesn't have anything to do with his Sage Mode.

-Using clones to enter SM is a basic thing to do if you can enter SM to begin with. Its not a special method only Naruto can use.

-Frog Kata is a Perfect Toad SM ability learned when trained by Fukasaku, fact. Minato is a Perfect Sage, meaning he was trained by Fukasaku, unless you are telling me he learned SM on his own?

You didn't debunk anything, in fact you showed me how bias you are towards Naruto, hence all the terrible reasons why you believe his SM is inferior. Go ahead and keep your opinions; no matter how biased and flawed they are.

His SM is not inferior... actually it may be on par or even above Naruto's SM as we say.

However Minato's Senjutsu abilities are far behind Naruto like it or no.

Minato lacks expierience with SM, Frog Katas and that it.

I can bet almost everything that Minato wasn't taught Frog Katas due to either dying to early before he would complete his Senjutsu training or either he was too busy with other stuff and didn't feel like it could fit his combat style.

Until I see scan of Minato using Frog Katas until then I will not admit you being right in that case.

 

[KidGamer65]

Re: Real Reason why Fukasaku said "Naruto surpassed those who came before him"

His SM is not inferior... actually it may be on par or even above Naruto's SM as we say.

However Minato's Senjutsu abilities are far behind Naruto like it or no.

Minato lacks expierience with SM, Frog Katas and that it.

I can bet almost everything that Minato wasn't taught Frog Katas due to either dying to early before he would complete his Senjutsu training or either he was too busy with other stuff and didn't feel like it could fit his combat style.

Until I see scan of Minato using Frog Katas until then I will not admit you being right in that case.

You can keep on making empty claims with no proof behind them, but I have scans that show you go through the WHOLE process when you learn SM, you don't learn a piece of it and be on your merry way. Unless you can show me a good reason why he wouldn't have everything SM has to offer despite being trained at Mount Myoboku, you're wrong; and you not admitting it doesn't change the fact.


Not even gonna bother with you.

 

[KCMNaruto]

Re: Real Reason why Fukasaku said "Naruto surpassed those who came before him"

You can keep on making empty claims with no proof behind them, but I have scans that show you go through the WHOLE process when you learn SM, you don't learn a piece of it and be on your merry way. Unless you can show me a good reason why he wouldn't have everything SM has to offer despite being trained at Mount Myoboku, you're wrong; and you not admitting it doesn't change the fact.


Not even gonna bother with you.

lol you are the one stubborn here who is not accepting manga facts.

I showed you manga scan with Naruto being able to enter Perfect Sage mode then Fukusaku explained that there is last final step to his Senjutsu training, and it was frog katas.

Senjutsu != Sage mode

Senjutsu - ability to utilize nature energy balanced with physical and spiritual eneries creating new kind of chakra called as sage chakra. It also contains combat syle involving use of Sage chakra and other perks which are not activated as passive traits. These treats could be improved and better utilized.

Sage mode - Special state of body using Nature energy mixed with physical and spirtual energies in balance creating sage chakra which enhance body and give it new passive traits.

Senjutsu = Sage mode + combat style using Sage chakra etc.

Sage mode is part of Senjutsu but Sage mode does not equal Senjutsu

 

[KidGamer65]

Re: Real Reason why Fukasaku said "Naruto surpassed those who came before him"

lol you are the one stubborn here who is not accepting manga facts.

I showed you manga scan with Naruto being able to enter Perfect Sage mode then Fukusaku explained that there is last final step to his Senjutsu training, and it was frog katas.

Senjutsu = Sage mode

Senjutsu - ability to utilize nature energy balanced with physical and spiritual eneries creating new kind of chakra called as sage chakra. It also contains combat syle involving use of Sage chakra and other perks which are not activated as passive traits. These treats could be improved and better utilized.

Sage mode - Special state of body using Nature energy mixed with physical and spirtual energies in balance creating sage chakra which enhance body and give it new passive traits.

Senjutsu = Sage mode + combat style using Sage chakra etc.

Sage mode is part of Senjutsu but Sage mode does not equal Senjutsu

And I'm just going to repeat the same thing I've been saying.


Minato underwent Senjutsu training, hence the use of Perfect SM. So there is no reason to believe he doesn't have the abilities that come with Toad Sage Mode. Unless you have a good reason why he completed the SM part of the training course but not the rest of it, cause that makes no sense.

The nonsense you are spewing isn't debunking anything.

 

[KCMNaruto]

Re: Real Reason why Fukasaku said "Naruto surpassed those who came before him"

And I'm just going to repeat the same thing I've been saying.


Minato underwent Senjutsu training, hence the use of Perfect SM. So there is no reason to believe he doesn't have the abilities that come with Toad Sage Mode. Unless you have a good reason why he completed the SM part of the training course but not the rest of it, cause that makes no sense.

The nonsense you are spewing isn't debunking anything.

Well there are only two leggit explanations with first sound more logical then second. They are:

- Minato died before he could complete Senjutsu training but still was able to complete entering of Perfect Sage mode
- Minato resigned from learning it as it would not fit his combat style.

This possible due to these scans:

Proof:

Spoiler

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^^ Naruto having perfect Sage mode

then:

Spoiler

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^^ See Frog Katas is final step of learning Senjutsu. Entering Sage mode is only part of it.

Let me show you in visual way:

Minato: learnt SM-> died-> could complete Senjutsu training by learining Frog Katas
Naruto: learnt SM-> Completed Senjutsu training by learning Frog Katas

see my point ?

I am not fanboying or wanking Naruto here. It is just how I see it until I will know more about Minato's use of SM and Frog Katas utilized in battle.

 

[adeshina365]

Re: Real Reason why Fukasaku said "Naruto surpassed those who came before him"

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Firstly, SM Minato is an asspull, nothing more, nothing less.

Secondly, SM Minato is a retcon; as a result, in the current manga continuity yes, Minato did indeed have SM while he was alive.

 

[-Spoiler-]

Re: Real Reason why Fukasaku said "Naruto surpassed those who came before him"

lol you are the one stubborn here who is not accepting manga facts.

I showed you manga scan with Naruto being able to enter Perfect Sage mode then Fukusaku explained that there is last final step to his Senjutsu training, and it was frog katas.

Senjutsu = Sage mode

Senjutsu - ability to utilize nature energy balanced with physical and spiritual eneries creating new kind of chakra called as sage chakra. It also contains combat syle involving use of Sage chakra and other perks which are not activated as passive traits. These treats could be improved and better utilized.

Sage mode - Special state of body using Nature energy mixed with physical and spirtual energies in balance creating sage chakra which enhance body and give it new passive traits.

Senjutsu = Sage mode + combat style using Sage chakra etc.

Sage mode is part of Senjutsu but Sage mode does not equal Senjutsu

interesting maybe that's why it said senjutsu instead of sennin mode will have to wait for a viz scan to be sure.

 

[KCMNaruto]

Re: Real Reason why Fukasaku said "Naruto surpassed those who came before him"

interesting maybe that's why it said senjutsu instead of sennin mode will have to wait for a viz scan to be sure.

Thanks, I am glad someone could get my point, but as you said we have to wait for viz scan to be sure and make sure if explanation could fit or no.

 

[KidGamer65]

Re: Real Reason why Fukasaku said "Naruto surpassed those who came before him"

- Minato died before he could complete Senjutsu training but still was able to complete entering of Perfect Sage mode
- Minato resigned from learning it as it would not fit his combat style.

Minato: learnt SM-> died-> could complete Senjutsu training by learining Frog Katas
Naruto: learnt SM-> Completed Senjutsu training by learning Frog Katas

And like I said, where is the evidence? Naruto learned how to enter Sage Mode and then immediately went on to learn how to utilize everything else. Why would Minato learn and enter SM, but leave and come back another time to learn the rest of it? That makes no sense.

 

[KCMNaruto]

Re: Real Reason why Fukasaku said "Naruto surpassed those who came before him"

And like I said, where is the evidence? Naruto learned how to enter Sage Mode and then immediately went on to learn how to utilize everything else. Why would Minato learn and enter SM, but leave and come back another time to learn the rest of it? That makes no sense.

Yeah I know but this is only possible explanation. It is only possible if Minato completed entering Sage mode in the sam day in which he died.

It could fits into story and would be much more plaussible as it would explain why Minato didn't use SM or feel uneasy with SM because he didn't complete his training and he has no experience with it.

 

[KidGamer65]

Re: Real Reason why Fukasaku said "Naruto surpassed those who came before him"

Yeah I know but this is only possible explanation. It is only possible if Minato completed entering Sage mode in the sam day in which he died.

That's the "only possible explanation" because you are assuming that he didn't complete the training or that he doesn't have the stuff SM comes with.

@bold: And there is no reason why he wouldn't.

It could fits into story and would be much more plaussible as it would explain why Minato didn't use SM or feel uneasy with SM because he didn't complete his training and he has no experience with it.

lol, you saw Minato fight twice in this manga while he was alive.

-Do you think he had time to enter SM against Ay? Nope. He didn't.

-Do you think that SM was necessary against Ay or Obito? Nope. It wasn't.

Your explanation doesn't fit in the story nor is it plausible.

 

[AlphaScythian]

Re: Real Reason why Fukasaku said "Naruto surpassed those who came before him"

And like I said, where is the evidence? Naruto learned how to enter Sage Mode and then immediately went on to learn how to utilize everything else. Why would Minato learn and enter SM, but leave and come back another time to learn the rest of it? That makes no sense.

Because minato only has the theory on SM and understanding of it he always lacked chakra/body to attain it. Sort of orochimaru.

Edo tensei with unlimited chakra seems to have solved this problem, even so he only decided to try it out this late and not vs Jin Obito.

It's all i can say.

 

[KidGamer65]

Re: Real Reason why Fukasaku said "Naruto surpassed those who came before him"

Because minato only has the theory on SM and understanding of it he always lacked chakra/body to attain it. Sort of orochimaru.

Actually Orochimaru can't even enter it, he only has use of Senjutsu. Though Minato can enter it.

Edo tensei with unlimited chakra seems to have solved this problem, even so he only decided to try it out this late and not vs Jin Obito.

Unlimited chakra only makes your pool not run out, it doesn't increase the size of your chakra pool at all. Otherwise the Edo Hokage wouldn't have been limited in the amount of clones they could make when holding up the barrier.

In 642 they found out he could be hurt by Senjutsu, then in 643 right after Obito recovered he started to use Bijuu Dama so Minato had to link with the rest of alliance via Naruto so they could survive and give them the boosted Kyuubi cloak, KCM was needed for that. Then his KCM ran out, though Minato took the backseat while Sasuke and Naruto fought Obito, and then Obito was defeated. There really wasn't a chance where he could have used Sage Mode against him.

 

[AlphaScythian]

Re: Real Reason why Fukasaku said "Naruto surpassed those who came before him"

Actually Orochimaru can't even enter it, he only has use of Senjutsu. Though Minato can enter it.

But only now, few chapters ago would also be much more logical?

Unlimited chakra only makes your pool not run out, it doesn't increase the size of your chakra pool at all. Otherwise the Edo Hokage wouldn't have been limited in the amount of clones they could make when holding up the barrier.

In theory it doesnt but one can get more chakra then his pool allows in theory. Chakra manipulation skill is the limit. Basically if you mold one pull into chakra you get refill then mold another thus have double pool chakra worth.
I think could happen.

Or nature simply cannot overtake dirt, even simpler like this :|

In 642 they found out he could be hurt by Senjutsu, then in 643 right after Obito recovered he started to use Bijuu Dama so Minato had to link with the rest of alliance via Naruto so they could survive and give them the boosted Kyuubi cloak, KCM was needed for that. Then his KCM ran out, though Minato took the backseat while Sasuke and Naruto fought Obito, and then Obito was defeated. There really wasn't a chance where he could have used Sage Mode against him.

No sorry, he and naruto went against obito together, naruto was fueling it all with senjutsu, he could and should've shown it there.

 

[Naruto9001]

Re: Real Reason why Fukasaku said "Naruto surpassed those who came before him"

While you did give a lot of evidence backing up your theory. It's hard for me to believe Minato's had SM all this time when he's never used it. I also hate the idea of Minato having to have everything Naruto has. Can't Naruto have something unique to him for once?

 

[KidGamer65]

Re: Real Reason why Fukasaku said "Naruto surpassed those who came before him"

But only now, few chapters ago would also be much more logical?

It would have been. This whole Minato having SM thing in the first place makes no sense going by what was said previously in the manga anyway.

In theory it doesnt but one can get more chakra then his pool allows in theory. Chakra manipulation skill is the limit. Basically if you mold one pull into chakra you get refill then mold another thus have double pool chakra worth.
I think could happen.

Or nature simply cannot overtake dirt, even simpler like this :|

If you mold chakra, its still inside you, so your pool wouldn't refill unless you actually used the molded chakra up.


lol, I doubt that's the case. Lol

No sorry, he and naruto went against obito together, naruto was fueling it all with senjutsu, he could and should've shown it there.

You have a point here, though that could mean he isn't capable of fusing SM and BM, but I doubt that.

 

[AlphaScythian]

Re: Real Reason why Fukasaku said "Naruto surpassed those who came before him"

It would have been. This whole Minato having SM thing in the first place makes no sense going by what was said previously in the manga anyway.

At least here we agree.

If you mold chakra, its still inside you, so your pool wouldn't refill unless you actually used the molded chakra up.

lol, I doubt that's the case. Lol

We have to explain it somehow, even if kishi himself has no idea. I'll go with dirt one
Its has some sense to it, gamakichi said naruto would have to die to get SM lol.
I guess it was foreshadowed for minato after all :leaf:

You have a point here, though that could mean he isn't capable of fusing SM and BM, but I doubt that.

I also doubt that kurama would mind.