[VS] Prime Hiruzen vs 5 kage
- Thread starter TrickyDD
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GiantShuriken
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Tazzilla88
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One we have no way to gauge whether or not the bell test is a standard test performed by every sensei or just the lineage that followed the third. Also we know that the idea of teamwork was because of Obito. Not necessarily because of what has been done in previous years. So if we take math pre Einstein and compare it to common day math, common day math will be different. Why a new perspective changed the way we think. Likewise the same could be true and likely is true of the bell test as I've already pointed out. For Naruto the punishment for independent thinking was being tied to the tree. But you can't necessarily say the same of Jiraiya. Even as 6 year old he was much more talented as a shinobi than Naruto was at 12 having created a jutsu that would allow him to peep, and that's without the advantage of having a demon fox sealed into him which would allow him to use hundreds of shadow clones to learn faster. If we look at how great the sannin became. If you compare Tsunade and Sakura at the same age it's a safe bet that Tsunade would still come out on top. Why? As a youth she gained notoriety as the best medical ninja in the world. As a youth she fought the seemingly most dangerous shinobi of the time and was fairly unscathed at the end of the battle. As a youth she had suggested the practices for medical nin. My point being comparing the sannin even as gennin to genin team 7 doesn't work in any way whatsoever. If Tsunade had just passed out like Sakura she would never have gotten a bell.
Now to get back on track from the tangent that I went on, your conclusion makes no sense. If it was to test strength and not teamwork Jiraiya would not have been tied up. Why? That was clearly what Kakashi said the punishment would be for not getting a bell. It doesn't seem that complicated.
Also you say hardly anyone would pass the test if a strength test is what was looked for, but if you remember how many people did Kakashi pass before team 7? Therefore we can reason that no quota had to be met. Especially if you were to be under the tutelage of the current hokage.
Also by my logic Sasuke just outsmarted Kakashi because Kakashi underestimated him. It really isn't much more complicated than that. Yes Kakashi is brilliant and Sasuke is not as smart, but in that instance Kakashi's own perceptions blinded him. So yes, if Kakashi were to underestimate Sasuke in the same way Hidan underestimated Shikamaru though Hidan was obviously the superior fighter, he could be hit. But to underestimate an opponent is the behavior of a fool. So either Hiruzen behaved foolishly, Oro and Tsunade outsmarted him, or they were fast enough and capable enough to take a bell from Kakashi.
It really was. Those Susanoo clones would not have been present had he not had unlimited chakra, in fact many of Madara's feats are possible because of unlimited chakra. If perfect susanoo was all the gokage had to worry about they could have taken Madara. But it wasn't.
TheSages456
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-living madara fought hashirama for a full day and makes a valley.
-this guy says that madara needed unlimited chakra to use a few techs against the kages for a few hours.
that argument is absolute garbage.
the gokage were portrayed as nothing compared to PS so no they cant beat madara even if they only had to worry about PS.
ItachiStyle
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Yeh, some of the pro-Hiruzen/Anti-hashi logic is ridiculous.
We're basically indirectly told EMS Madara could use perfect Susanoo. When he uses it the reaction of Onoki is "why didn't you use this sort of power against us back then!!!", and Madara's response isn't "I couldn't do this tech back then" or "I wasn't this strong", it's "I wasn't trying, duh". He then talks about how if Hashi was here, they'd have to redraw the map (again), and still talks as though Hashi could beat him "Only Hashirama can beat me... and he's no longer here".
Plus even just going strictly off what happened (and ignoring what Madara says), EMS Madara apparently beat Mu and Onoki without trying. It seems pretty clear a trying EMS Madara could take 5 Kages if he can effortlessly own Mu and Onoki. And Hashi beat Madara and the 9 Tails in a "fight to the death" where they were going all out. It's pretty clear Hashi is being portrayed as on an entirely different level to the 5 Kage.
We're basically indirectly told EMS Madara could use perfect Susanoo. When he uses it the reaction of Onoki is "why didn't you use this sort of power against us back then!!!", and Madara's response isn't "I couldn't do this tech back then" or "I wasn't this strong", it's "I wasn't trying, duh". He then talks about how if Hashi was here, they'd have to redraw the map (again), and still talks as though Hashi could beat him "Only Hashirama can beat me... and he's no longer here".
Plus even just going strictly off what happened (and ignoring what Madara says), EMS Madara apparently beat Mu and Onoki without trying. It seems pretty clear a trying EMS Madara could take 5 Kages if he can effortlessly own Mu and Onoki. And Hashi beat Madara and the 9 Tails in a "fight to the death" where they were going all out. It's pretty clear Hashi is being portrayed as on an entirely different level to the 5 Kage.
Sakura got the bells from Kakashi, so she is faster than him.
Seems reasonable
:rofl:
Character bashing =prohibited
So, um, how does this have anything to do with Five Kage vs Hiruzen?
You know he has clones right?
Both of them do.
:sy:
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KidGamer65
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Funny, I recall the Gokage this close to being one shotted by PS before Edo Tensei was cancelled.
EMS Living or Edo Rinnegan, either Madara would have destroyed the Kage, the difference is EMS Madara won't play around like Edo Madara did.
Unorthodox
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What the hell can Hiruzen do against A's speed when it takes 2 developed Sharingan's to even keep up with him (visually). What can he do when Gaara takes flight and guess what comes next? Sand Tsunami... Hiruzen is weak, fodder and just hyped up by fanboys like yourself. Even Kakashi takes Hiruzen out. And don't bring up the argument "Hiruzen beat the first and second" because they weren't using their own minds like they are now with current edo tensei, they were controlled by Orochimaru the whole time through. So it was pretty much Hiruzen Vs Orochimaru's mind.
Tazzilla88
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Funny because I remember the gokage using most of their chakra before Perfect Susanoo was revealed.
KidGamer65
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And what would they have done with their chakra? Nothing, it was very clear they were powerless before the might of Perfect Susanoo, nothing they have in their arsenals can do anything to it. Whether they had full chakra or not, they still get fodderized by PS.
Thee Beyonder
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What relevance does Hashirama have with this fight? Why even bring him up?
Even still I don't want to go off topic and make this a Hashirama VS 5 kages thread but Hashirama has a much higher chance at beating the 5 kages than does Hiruzen (prime or not).
EMS Madara has access to PS believe it or not and would instantly wipe out the five kages easily so I have no clue why people are even bringing him up.
If you go through the thread, the popular consensus is that any one of the kages can solo hiruzen in a fight. Hashirama , by popular consensus logic is the pinnacle of strength, excluding dsm kabuto/tobi , Yet even he would lose this fight...
Hashirama isn't Madara.. and abc logic wouldn't work.. While madara has counters to all the kages by staying inside his susannoo.. Hashirama would be up against A, who has lightened weight from Onooki/ thus making him stronger and faster.... As Minato was unable to react vastly to A's normal v2 attack, What's the argument that Hashirama is even going to blink before his throat gets burst open from a lariat/ + sealed by gaara?
Hiruzen isn't winning this, far from.. It would take an edo tensei mini rikuudo or a ninja with very special abiltiies to "solo" 5 kage
Tazzilla88
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No they outsmarted Kakashi in that instance. The argument was either they outsmarted him, or they were fast and skilled enough to get a bell through force. You can take your pick which.
So far Perfect Susanoo as the ability to slice, stab, and crush. Now Oonoki could have taken one of two measures. He could lighten to the extent that he lightened the two meteors. The crushing power of Perfect Susanoo is greatly reduced. In addition, that makes it easier to deal with as its strength and destructive power would go down with the diminished weight. That would then leave Perfect Susanoo more susceptible to the 4th raikage and the 5th hokage's strength. Additionally as we know that Tsunade is an expert with transformation jutsu, and based on the performance of Gamabunta and genin Naruto against Shukaku we can imagine that Tsunade with Katsuyu could do something similar. But you may not like that argument but we are also aware that Perfect Susanoo has nothing to harm Katsuyu whatsoever. And in it's lightened state it may well be too light to casually push Katsuyu aside as she evidently weighs a great deal.
Oonoki could also do the exact opposite. He could weigh down the susanoo with a weighted rock technique that parallels his light rock technique . That in turn would increase the destructive power of the Perfect Susanoo. He would then make the kages and gaara's sand lighter so that they can move quicker to avoid the susanoo's now arduously slow movements. From there a different strategy is used. Katsuyu is against necessary as she has the most acidic acid shown to date. As we well know, Susanoo is without a doubt not impervious to acid. And with the acid the structural integrity of Susanoo will start to fail, and Susanoo will be too slow to avoid said acid. Then Tsunade could boost Mei's Lava based jutsu to work after the acid to further melt the slow Susanoo. As icing on the cake we are also aware that Jinton has some effect on the susanoo. And As Madara can only absorbs what comes to him, and he's a speck in comparison to susanoo it's possible to further take out the structure of susanoo. At this point you return Tsunade to her normal weight and have her right Gaara's sand. While Oonoki rides A's back and the beat around the greatly damaged Susanoo. All the while serving as a distraction for Gaara to gather enough Sand from the surrounding desert to create a sealing jutsu large enough to encompass the entire Perfect Susanoo. The Perfect Susanoo will be too slow to avoid. And As it engulfs the PS, Oonoki use his great weighted rock technique to weigh the sand down making it even more difficult, even impossible for Madara and his Susanoo to struggle against it.