[VS] Prime Hiruzen vs 5 kage
- Thread starter TrickyDD
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ItachiStyle
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Oro had them stand around doing nothing most of the time, and based on his hand gestures he even seems to be manually controlling them like puppets some of the time. He flat out tells us they are "toying" with Hiruzen, as he urges him to show him this new jutsu. So the claim they were going all out is clearly ludicrous... they couldn't even use their own tactics and skill, because they didn't have control over their bodies.
Tazzilla88
Active member
... Oh really?
Tobirama is large reason for the mess that exist today, his bigotry of the Uchiha's forced Hiruzen's hand. In addition he created Edo-Tensei and if you have not noticed that has been the most problematic jutsu in the manga. In forced the third to kill himself in vain. IT gave Orochimaru and Kabuto undead armies. Think about what "good" guy would turn a living person into a host for a dead soul? Edo-Tensei had no place in the shinobi world.
Hiruzen ordered the genocide of a people. Man, woman, and child. And thinking logically don't you think there were some babies and toddlers?
Minato was a fairly good kage for his short reign. However, the tensions between the Uchiha and Senju were approaching their climax under his leadership and as far as we know so far he didn't reconcile the opposing groups.
Tsunade is not above fault either, she was too lenient with Sasuke. She should have had him killed at the beginning of part two. But he hadn't really done anything major until he attacked Bee. And she wasn't even conscious for that.
Hashirama... well he was just awesome.
But let's not just look at the negatives.
Hashirama built the village... literally and helped establish peace between clans and fought to maintain it.
Tobirama sacrificed himself for the village in the great war
Hiruzen had the longest reign of any hokage and besides the Uchiha incident it was I'm supposing fairly peaceful. He was also willing to lay down his life to protect Konoha
Minato Died to save the village from the nine tailed fox, was the reason Konoha won the last great war.
Tsunade - created the system for medical ninja, saved many lives in Pein's attack with her medical prowess. Laid her life on the line on at least 5 separate occasions for the village/shinobi world. With her use of Katsuyu she was able to aid in Naruto's defeat of Pein. And with her use of Katsuyu she has been able to get information across the battlefield which allowed plenty of strategies to be formed. She also created the two most advanced medical ninjutsus. She has been shown strategizing ways to keep konoha stable and enemies away in times when Konoha was weak. She is saving the other kages lives. And apparently before she joined the battle the 4 other kages had just stalemated with Madara before he brought out clones. Also when she went in to the Kage meeting, unlike Danzo she had the respect of the other kage their which would seem to speak of her diplomatic excellence. Now with the exception of giving Sasuke too much leeway what else has she done that could be looked at negatively for her position of hokage? I didn't think so. Shut that show down sir. Also I do not hear you criticizing Hashirama for gambling, or getting his granddaughter addicted to gambling. (Which by the way her drinking and her gambling has never interfered with her ability to do her job. In fact we can count one hand the number of times we've seen her drunk in the manga. And her gambling has served as an omen at times to make her even better at her job. ) Nor do I see you chastising people about how Hiruzen, Naruto, Konohamaru, Bee, and Jiraiya are perverts. Or how Tobirama is a bigot. and what USSJ said. Also I'd like to point out that Jiraiya said Tsunade was the reason that Konoha won the great war that they fought in together. The second I believe. And he said no one can stand shoulder to shoulder to her in combat and medical prowess.
Yes. I'm very serious. It would seem that the sannin did not use teamwork as Jiraiya ended up tied to the tree. Which would also tell us that Hiruzen was testing something different than Kakashi, as the purpose of Kakashi's original bell test was to force co-operation. In fact its much more likely that their bell test was much more like the bell test we saw in the beginning of part 2. An actual test of strength rather than a test of teamwork. And with an actual test of strength you wouldn't fight to kill but you would try to protect those bells as Kakashi did. So yes, I'm entirely serious as that means Hiruzen is no speed demon if they were able to grab the bells. Or they outwitted him at 6. You take your pick. Which would prove even worse for the third for the sake of argument.
How do you know Tsunade and oro didn't work together and jiraiya just did what naruto did and went on his own?.
As i said, it was training, they wouldn't put an Hokage/jonin in training with Genin's/chunin's if they arn't expected to hold about almost all of their strength/speed/jutsu's otherwise no one would ever get the bells at all.
Also if hiruzen's bell test was to test strength and not team work, Jiraiya wouldn't of ended up being tied to the wooden block in the first place, The whole point of being tied to it was due to acting on your own/thinking of yourself, hence why naruto got tied to it in part one.
with this logic i should also add in the fact sasuke was able to touch kakashi's bell in part one, befor he even was a genin, i guess this almost makes kakashi slow or sasuke's speed/taijutsu skills on par with jonin
Slug Princess Tsunade
Active member
Don't forget the Gennin sannins were more talented then the gennin Sakura, Naruto and Sasuke. They finished the academy when they were six, and N/S/ S finished when they were 12.
JIRAIYA perv
Active member
Edo Madara wins this - Hashirama doesn't. There is a huge difference ....Edo madara is absorbing all their ninjutsu, summoning 20 clones , with susanno and without etc.. feats ems madara is no where capable of..
The Gokage will get overwhelmed by Hashiramas power, which is considered to be by far greater than that of the Gokage together. At least when he activated his perfect Susanoo, he clarified that both he and Hashirama fought on a level even the 5 Kage are weak. The only reason Madara left any opening to the Kage was him not taking them serious, otherwise they wouldn't have survived the Susanoo clones. The same goes with Hashirama, who firstly will cover the landscape as Madara did and will attack them with 5 Mokuton Bunshins for each Kage, using the bringer of darkness first and kill them fully blinded. There are Kage which wouldn't even beat two of Hahiramas Mokuton Bunshins at once and yet you want to tell me that they would survive Hashirama fighting serious.
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His moukouton will get destroyed by Onooki's large scale jinton, which easily destroyed a set of susannos , You act like these are children fighting... EDO MADARA'S moukouton bunshins had susanno's and infinite chakra... Hashirama doesn't have this .... Hashi just has normal moukouton clones... Getting out of bringer of darkness only requires you to land 1 hit on the opponent... Gaara is capable of covering the area in sensing sand, and with his large scale sand attacks, he would be able to get everyone out by just landing a hit on hashirama.. considering he was able to land a hit on Madara ...
Hashirama as far as we know has no counter to A's speed... v2 speed that is... Minato came close to dying moments after A charged up.. thankfully he had ftg..
Madara has Susanno for protection for the hits..
Hashirama? Not only does he not have a counter for v2 speed.. but what about A when onooki lightens his weight? speed and power were both drastically increased.. Hashirama wont have time to blink
Dont get confused between the monster that Is edo madara, and ems madara / hashirama , few people in this manga can take 5 kages
@Owarij
Like a drop of water deletes a forest fires? Using Jinton against the Mokuton would be a pure waste of chakra, as Hashirama could just accelerate the growth again. You act like the Jinton's size stays in comparison with Hashiramas Mokuton; the largest Jinton used by Oonoki, who was backed up by Tsunade and sacrificed most of his chakra, had half of the meteorites size Madara threw before, while the meteorite however pales in comparison to the tree worlds size.
Hashiramas clones are not using Susanoo, they however have Hashiramas abilities, what includes his overall skills, Mokuton and Genjutsu included. Each fighting 5 Mokuton Bunshin from which only one used the Bringer of Darkness, makes it impossible to get free of it as there will not only be the need to catch Hashirama fully blinded, the chance of catching the right one will be about 20%. The Mokuton is versatile enough to do anything. The Bunshins will not only be able to use the originals techniques in an offensive and defensive meaning, they are as durable as humans, possess Hashiramas overall skills such as powerful Genjutsu, have the ability to merge with the surroundings and appear from every spot without the Kage noticing it, while fighting on a field which was changed to Hashiramas advantage. Using the Bringer of Darkness successfully on top would fodderize the Kage. The Kage can't do anything, they otherwise would've blitzed Madara already before. The Mokuton can also be used in defensive meanings, Hashirama possesses regenerative abilities at Tsunades level and possesses logically sensoring skills, too, as Zetsu, who is proved to be a mere copy of Hashirama with a lower quality, possesses this ability along with other abilities Hashirama is proved to possess, too. A may be fast, by he still gets totally overwhelmed by the skills Hashirama possesses. He has grown in wars and fought Shinobi that are Kagelevel many times, he's also one smart and experienced guy who won't leave openings to the Kage that easy. Given the scenario of Tsunade destroying Madaras clone, this strategy could also be done by Hashirama, who will let one of his Bunshin being blitzed by A, before counter attacking. He could simply hide himself within the surroundings and let a group of Mokuton Bunshins appear from the ground which will outnumber and overwhelm him. Compared separately, Mei wouldn't stand a chance to even two Bunshins, Tsunade similarly.
If A was caught by Madaras Susanoo, Hashirama with superior number, sensing skills, Genjutsu and Mokuton will also be able. Considering that A is taking care of his teammates while fighting himself, a scenario demonstrated in the manga, he will let Hashirama enough openings.
Oonokis Jinton is the only danger for Hashirama but can easily be outdone. Jinton is fine, but that's anything Oonoki has to offer along with his Doton; he's slow and has no further feats. Hashirama, who controls the surroundings, can hide himself everywhere and can create a superior number of Bunshins, should take it with relative ease. Given the fact, that Oonoki didn't use his Jinton against the clones before, means nothing more than that his lack of speed and chakra couldn't care the usage of his Jinton against multiple opponents at once.
When Tobi spammed Mokuton spears through Juubis arms, even the Shinobi alliance along the Hyuga were overwhelmed. Though the Juubi cannot be compared with Hashirama, this technique, originally used by Tobi, is also a technique of Hashirma, and though used on a smaller scale, this usage of Mokuton wouldn't leave Oonoki much hope, even if those spears spammed by Hashirama will have the size of Hakus senbon. The same goes for the other Kage, who are already handicapped by the Bringer of Darkness, for example.
It's not like I don't acknowledge the power of the Kage, but Hashirama has the advantage here. apart from his overall skills, the Mokuton just offers him too much versatile techniques.
Like a drop of water deletes a forest fires? Using Jinton against the Mokuton would be a pure waste of chakra, as Hashirama could just accelerate the growth again. You act like the Jinton's size stays in comparison with Hashiramas Mokuton; the largest Jinton used by Oonoki, who was backed up by Tsunade and sacrificed most of his chakra, had half of the meteorites size Madara threw before, while the meteorite however pales in comparison to the tree worlds size.
Hashiramas clones are not using Susanoo, they however have Hashiramas abilities, what includes his overall skills, Mokuton and Genjutsu included. Each fighting 5 Mokuton Bunshin from which only one used the Bringer of Darkness, makes it impossible to get free of it as there will not only be the need to catch Hashirama fully blinded, the chance of catching the right one will be about 20%. The Mokuton is versatile enough to do anything. The Bunshins will not only be able to use the originals techniques in an offensive and defensive meaning, they are as durable as humans, possess Hashiramas overall skills such as powerful Genjutsu, have the ability to merge with the surroundings and appear from every spot without the Kage noticing it, while fighting on a field which was changed to Hashiramas advantage. Using the Bringer of Darkness successfully on top would fodderize the Kage. The Kage can't do anything, they otherwise would've blitzed Madara already before. The Mokuton can also be used in defensive meanings, Hashirama possesses regenerative abilities at Tsunades level and possesses logically sensoring skills, too, as Zetsu, who is proved to be a mere copy of Hashirama with a lower quality, possesses this ability along with other abilities Hashirama is proved to possess, too. A may be fast, by he still gets totally overwhelmed by the skills Hashirama possesses. He has grown in wars and fought Shinobi that are Kagelevel many times, he's also one smart and experienced guy who won't leave openings to the Kage that easy. Given the scenario of Tsunade destroying Madaras clone, this strategy could also be done by Hashirama, who will let one of his Bunshin being blitzed by A, before counter attacking. He could simply hide himself within the surroundings and let a group of Mokuton Bunshins appear from the ground which will outnumber and overwhelm him. Compared separately, Mei wouldn't stand a chance to even two Bunshins, Tsunade similarly.
If A was caught by Madaras Susanoo, Hashirama with superior number, sensing skills, Genjutsu and Mokuton will also be able. Considering that A is taking care of his teammates while fighting himself, a scenario demonstrated in the manga, he will let Hashirama enough openings.
Oonokis Jinton is the only danger for Hashirama but can easily be outdone. Jinton is fine, but that's anything Oonoki has to offer along with his Doton; he's slow and has no further feats. Hashirama, who controls the surroundings, can hide himself everywhere and can create a superior number of Bunshins, should take it with relative ease. Given the fact, that Oonoki didn't use his Jinton against the clones before, means nothing more than that his lack of speed and chakra couldn't care the usage of his Jinton against multiple opponents at once.
When Tobi spammed Mokuton spears through Juubis arms, even the Shinobi alliance along the Hyuga were overwhelmed. Though the Juubi cannot be compared with Hashirama, this technique, originally used by Tobi, is also a technique of Hashirma, and though used on a smaller scale, this usage of Mokuton wouldn't leave Oonoki much hope, even if those spears spammed by Hashirama will have the size of Hakus senbon. The same goes for the other Kage, who are already handicapped by the Bringer of Darkness, for example.
It's not like I don't acknowledge the power of the Kage, but Hashirama has the advantage here. apart from his overall skills, the Mokuton just offers him too much versatile techniques.
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TheSages456
Active member
a full power madara who is canonically weaker than hashirama was portrayed as tiers above the kages. he does take this and this is stated countless times in manga canon.
^ EMS Madara was never canonically weaker than Hashirama. They fought several battles than ended in a dead-lock. How Hashirama won that fateful battle is a mystery and I believe Kishimoto should pull the covers already.
As for the OP; Hizuren has no feats to counter any of the kages' powerful attacks that include Tsunade's punches, Mei acid Mist, A's raiton attacks, Onoki's Jinton, or Gaara's sand Tsunami. He loses fairly easily, as prime would only make it last longer in battle, it won't change his Justu repertoire or their strength. Even the thought is ridiculous.
As for the OP; Hizuren has no feats to counter any of the kages' powerful attacks that include Tsunade's punches, Mei acid Mist, A's raiton attacks, Onoki's Jinton, or Gaara's sand Tsunami. He loses fairly easily, as prime would only make it last longer in battle, it won't change his Justu repertoire or their strength. Even the thought is ridiculous.
You're funny. Are you talking about the Hashirama that beat Madara and the Hashirama that Madara took power from to help beat the 5 Kages?
Basically what you're saying is Madara >>>>>> Hashirama, because Madara killed them with ease.
TheSages456
Active member
im pretty sure when using their full power(perfect susano), ems and edo madara are equalized strength wise. you need to realize that what madara used against the gokage is tiers below what he used against hashirama by madaras own admission and by feats.
