In order to employ gentle fist you need the byakugan. You can't use it effectively if you cannot see their chakra flow. Only the byakugan will allow someone to see their chakra flow to that extent.
The Gentle Fist (柔拳, Jūken) or Gentle Fist Art (柔拳法, Jūkenpō) is a form of hand-to-hand combat used by members of the Hyūga clan. It inflicts internal damage through attacking the body's Chakra Pathway System, subsequently injuring organs which are closely intertwined with the area of the network which has been struck. To do this, the user surgically injects a certain amount of their own chakra into the opponent's chakra pathway system, causing damage to surrounding organs due to their proximity to the chakra circulatory system. Even the slightest tap can cause severe internal damage, hence the name "gentle" fist.
You dont nessasarily need doujutsu to use it.. both tsunade and kabuto have dont simillar attacks just by knowing the human body's anatomy
This Thread is to elaborate on Hiruzen Sarutobi's abilities whilst he was in his prime. And how powerful this "God of Shinobi" truely is. Also, I would like to point out that when we hiruzen fans decide to say hiruzen is the god shinobi or the strongest hokage we are reffering to the hiruzen in his Prime, not the old beat up hiruzen that fought orochimaru. All of hiruzen's hype refers to him in his prime.
Once again i will repeat that this thread only refers to hiruzen in his prime. In no way shape or form does this represent that old hiruzen that found oro. Only in Hiruzen's Prime was he labled as a God. And this thread will explain why.
Chakra
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Chakra Reserves
In his PRIME, Hiruzen was said to have immense chakra reserves, by anbu. This is noted that during his battle with orochimaru he was still able to use Earth Dragon Bullet, Earth mud flow, Earth style wall (huge scale), Fire Dragon Bullet, Fire dragon flame bullet, Roof tile shuriken, Shadow clone technique, Earth clone technique, Shadow clone shuriken technique, Summoning technique, and Death reaper seal all in one battle without showing signs of exhaustion. And that is with chakra levels that Enma stated were misserable compared to his prime.
Chakra Strength
His chakra strength refers to how powerful his chakra is, and who powerful that makes the techniques that he uses. Even in his old age, his chakra was noted for being very strong, causing a dense effect on the atmosphere when released.
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So in his prime his chakra if not just as strong could have possible been stronger. In old age you can see the strength of his chakra when he easily creates a Giant earth wall out of alittle bit of mud.
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Sensing Abilities
Hiruzen has been shown in the manga able sense many things at a great level. In his fight with the hokage bros, he was able to sense the location of the brothers, while under a genjutsu that eliminates his sight. This could also be credited to the Inazuka clan and hiruzens mastery over there techniques.
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It was also shown that he was able to sense bad things to come when he could tell right before obito summoned the kyuubi, that something was wrong.
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Strength, Speed, Intellegence
Strength
In the databook Old Hiruzen has a 3 in the category of strength. Also let us note that when he fought oro and summoned enma, he made a comment that enma was heavier than usual, this could suggest that he lost most of his strength due to age.
Because he was tsunade's teacher in his prime and tsunade as a genin showed monsterous strength with chakra enhanced strength, we can assume safetly that hiruzen had the same ability. He would be the one to teach her how to do it.
I would give him a 5 in the databook for PRIME his strength, just for what we were able to see. If enma was lighter in his prime that we could at least bump it up 1 point, But also noting that 10 years before the story began he was able to pull a full powered kurama out of the village, im goin to give him a 5 for his prime strength.
Speed
Not clear to say how fast he was in his prime. All we know is that in the databook he was given a 3 in old age. Seeing how he was able to go keep up with oro, hash, and tobi in their taijutsu matches i would believe that Prime hiruzen was pretty fast in his Prime. He seems like in his prime he would have a 5 as well.
Intelligence
His intelligence should never be questioned, seeing how he was known as the professor. He learned all techniques in his village, so its fair to say that this man is a genius. And he has a 5 for intelligence in both databooks. To be able to master all 5 chakra natures without a rinnegan is something that only a genius is capable of.
Ninjutsu (IMPORTANT)
Chakra Natures
Hiruzen is credited for knowing, mastering, and being able to use all jutsu's that exist in the leaf village. With that being said, that is evidence that hiruzen knows every chakra nature: Fire, Water, Wind, Earth, and Lightning.
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Because all nature types are known in the leaf. This makes a Prime Hiruzen with immense chakra reserves and chakra strength a threat to anyone. He is able to counter any technique with its appropriate weakness.
Ninjutsu Tech
I think the lack of information regarding his Ninja techs are why people doubt his strength in his Prime. But let me assure you, according to manga there is nothing he cant do.
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Hiruzen is said to know every technique that exists in the leaf.
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This means he was able to do the following.
Hiruzen (sarutobi clan)
Fire Release: Ash Pile Burning
Fire Release: Great Flame Technique
Dead Demon Consuming Seal
Earth Release Shadow Clone
Earth Release: Double Suicide Decapitation Technique
Earth Release: Earth Dragon Bullet
Earth Release: Earth Flow River
Earth Release: Earth-Style Wall
Fire Release: Fire Dragon Bullet
Fire Release: Fire Dragon Flame Bullet
Roof Tile Shuriken
Shadow Clone Technique
Shuriken Shadow Clone Technique
Summoning Technique (Monkey King: Enma)
Telescope Technique
Hiruzen w/ Enma Beast Human Clone
Dynamic Marking
Fang Passing Fang
Fang Rotating Fang (Manga only) - Capable of crushing stone
Fang Wolf Fang - The power is great enough to dent a Rashōmon gate
Four Legs Technique
Human Beast Combination Transformation: Double-Headed Wolf
Passing Fang
Akimichi clan
Butterfly Bullet Bombing
Calorie Control
Double Human Bullet Tank
Human Bullet Tank
Multi-Size Technique
Partial Multi-Size Technique
Spiked Human Bullet Tank
Super Multi-Size Technique
Super Open Hand Slap
Yamanaka Clan
Mind Body Disturbance Technique
Mind Body Switch Technique
Mind Clone Switch Technique
Mind Disturbance Dance Performance Technique (Anime only)
Mind Puppet Switch Cursed Seal Technique
Yamanaka Clan Telepathy
Uchiha Clan
Fire Release: Dragon Flame Release Song Technique
Fire Release: Great Dragon Fire Technique
Fire Release: Great Fireball Technique
Fire Release: Phoenix Sage Fire Technique
Fire Release: Phoenix Sage Flower Nail Crimson
Manipulating Windmill Triple Blades
Uchiha Flame Battle Encampment
Other Hidden Leaf Tech
Water Clone Technique
Water Release: Water Colliding Wave (Anime only)
Water Release: Water Dragon Bullet Technique
Water Release: Water Encampment Wall
Water Release: Water Trumpet
Chidori
Demonic Illusion: Hell Viewing Technique
Earth Release: Double Suicide Decapitation Technique
Earth Release: Earth-Style Wall
Earth Release: Hiding Like a Mole Technique
Earth Release: Multiple Earth-Style Wall (Anime only)
Eight Gates
Evil Sealing Method
Eye Mind Reading
Front Lotus
Lightning Beast Running Technique
Lightning Cutter
Lightning Release Shadow Clone
Lightning Transmission (Manga only)
Lion Combo
Multiple Shadow Clone Technique
One Thousand Years of Death
Rasengan
Shadow Clone Technique
Shadow Imitation Technique
Eight Trigrams Mountain Crusher
Eight Trigrams One Hundred Twenty-Eight Palms
Eight Trigrams Palms Revolving Heaven
Eight Trigrams Sixty-Four Palms
Eight Trigrams Thirty-Two Palms
Eight Trigrams Vacuum Palm
Eight Trigrams Vacuum Wall Palm
Hyūga Main Family's Juinjutsu
Palm Bottom
Protection of the Eight Trigrams Sixty-Four Palms
Water Needle
Shadow of the Dancing Leaf
Silent Killing
Summoning: Earth Release: Tracking Fang Technique
Wind Release: Great Breakthrough
And probally more. This arsenal of all these ninjutsu, and his mastery of it, and his immense chakra levels makes him extremely hax. Hiruzen in his prime is someone that you truely dont wanna mess with. This arsenal makes him deadly and extremely overpowered. This is part of the reason he is referred to a GOD in his Prime.
Taijutsu
As a master of all forms of shinobi combat and as someone who knows all techniques in the leaf, this lets us know hiruzen in his prime is a master of:
Gentle Fist (hyuuga clan)
Strong fist (Rock Lee and Might Guy)
8 gates
Gentle Fist Tech
Eight Trigrams Palms Revolving Heaven
Eight Trigrams Sixty-Four Palms
Eight Trigrams One Hundred Twenty-Eight Palms
Eight Trigrams Thirty-Two Palms
Eight Trigrams Vacuum Palm
Eight Trigrams Mountain Crusher
Eight Trigrams Vacuum Wall Palm
Gentle Fist Art One Blow Body
Gentle Step Twin Lion Fists
Palm Bottom
Protection of the Eight Trigrams Sixty-Four Palms
Water Needle
Strong Fist tech
Daytime Tiger
Double Dynamic Entry
Dynamic Action
Dynamic Entry
Front Lotus
Leaf Coiling Whirlwind
Leaf Gale
Leaf Great Flash
Leaf Rock-Destroying Rise
Leaf Strong Whirlwind
Leaf Whirlwind
Little Toe Attack
Morning Peacock
Reverse Lotus
Shadow of the Dancing Leaf
Violent — Leaf Adamantine-Strength Whirlwind
Genjutsu
Seeing who hiruzen has a 5 in genjutsu allows us to know he is capable of using it. And because he knows all jutsu in the leaf allows us to know that hiruzen knows:
Demonic Illusion: Tree Binding Death
Genjutsu: Flower Petal Escape
String Bean Binding Illusion
Bringer of darknes illusion
Genjutsu Binding
Medical Ninjutsu
Having it been said that Hiruzen has mastered all forms of shinobi combat and knows and can do all jutsu that exist in the leaf. It is only logical to assume he knows medical ninjutsu. Seeing how he was still in his prime around the time tsunade was being brought up as a jonin. Also knowing that he has excellent chakra control would able hiruzen to use medical ninjutsu in his prime.
Seeing how he was a master at medical ninjutsu as well, we can say that it is within his power to heal himself and others, perhaps with no hand signs seeing how sakura was able to heal herself without handsigns.
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Fuinjutsu
Knowing all jutsu's in the leaf, hiruzen in his prime should have known:
Death reaper seal
Eight Trigrams Sealing Style
Four Symbols Seal
Uzumaki Sealing Technique
So if you read this you will be able to see why Hiruzen Sarutobi was the God of all shinobi. In his Prime he was beastly. He had Immense chakra reverse and chakra strength, he had a arsenal of ninjutsu, taijutsu, and genjutsu. He had a partner that could tranform into an indestructible weapon that was capable of destroying mokuton and repeling a kyuubi. He could uses all chakra natures and secret clan techs of the leaf. and he was a genius. Hiruzen in his prime was Deadly. The strongest shinobi to ever live, the strongest hokage to ever live, and the God of them all.
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Fun Fact:
1. According to the info given on Prime Hiruzen he should have been able to do the "Formation Ino–Shika–Chō", by himself with the use of shadow clones..
2. Databook(kishi) says that Hiruzen at the age 59 would have beaten orochimaru without the use of Death God, andother testament to his power, while 59 still not his Prime.
I enjoyed your thread right up until you started assigning hiruzen 5 in everything based soly on the fact he was old when he died.Yes he was obviously stronger in these categories when he was younger but to rate him 5 in everything is defeats the purpose of your thread.I initially liked it because you were stating facts but now its turned into assumptions.Hiruzen was the strongest kage of his generation not of all time.Look it up in the manga.Hashirama is the strongest kage of all time and strongest shinobi of all time.This is backed up by madara himself.+ rep for the effort next time it you want people to agree or see your point don't give out fives in all categories when there is no definite proof.Because as i said earlier using proof in one section and then assuming in another makes the entire thread redundant.
Does the manga not say that he knows all jutsu that exist in the leaf?
Does the manga not say that he mastered all forms of shinobi combat?
If you put all the pieces the manga gave us together, then you get the he in his prime can do everything i stated.
The Gentle Fist (柔拳, Jūken) or Gentle Fist Art (柔拳法, Jūkenpō) is a form of hand-to-hand combat used by members of the Hyūga clan. It inflicts internal damage through attacking the body's Chakra Pathway System, subsequently injuring organs which are closely intertwined with the area of the network which has been struck. To do this, the user surgically injects a certain amount of their own chakra into the opponent's chakra pathway system, causing damage to surrounding organs due to their proximity to the chakra circulatory system. Even the slightest tap can cause severe internal damage, hence the name "gentle" fist.
You dont nessasarily need doujutsu to use it.. both tsunade and kabuto have dont simillar attacks just by knowing the human body's anatomy
I don't recall Kabuto using a technique similar. Tsunade generates electricity into the opponents body thus messing up they're ability to control their body properly. It's quite different then stopping chakra flow.
Furthermore only the byakugan can employ gentle fist look at these scans.
Hiruzen, as far as we know, didn't possess any sensing abilities. The reason why he was able to locate the two former Hokages in darkness was due to their
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.
As for your scan showing the Kyuubi being summoned, Kakashi also sensed something before it was summoned. This doesn't mean that Kakashi too is a sensor, its just what skilled ninjas develop like an instict if you will, like Itachi.
everyperson has sensing abilities ****in dumbasses seeing smelling hearing and feeling are sensing abilities if you mean abnormal sensing abilities say that.
with way him being able to feel the kyuubi being summoned is ab normal
just like byakugans seeing things is an abnormal sensing. that makes them a sensor
Eight Trigrams 64 Palms is passed down in the Hyuga's main branch, was Hiruzen a Hyuga? No, so he can't use those...its obvious that when they said he can use all jutsu that exist in the leaf, that clan specific jutsu weren't included.
It is said hiruzen is loved by everyone. and that he knows all jutsu that exist in the hidden leaf village. Whether clan specific or not the manga states that they are all known by hiruzen. he knows more the 1000 jutsu from the hidden leaf. It isnt impossible for him to learn clan specific techniques. They are just techniques that are kept secret from the rest of the world so that their clan remains special.
The databook states that hidden techniques are only employed by the users of that specific clan. If you know anything about me I'm the biggest hiruzen fan but I wouldn't say he knew something if it is clan specific.
When you state hiruzen in his prime could use every technique in the hidden leaf, that category includes clan specific techniques. this i what i take from the manga. They dont say that he can use all techs, but clan specific. The manga states all techs.
While your chakra capacity can diminish in size, nowhere does it state that it gets weaker (with regards to how powerful it is) as you get old. Sensing? No, he simply relied on his sense of smell to locate the Hokage within the illusion. Hiruzen had Tsunade-like strength? No evidence. Hiruzen would have a 5 in speed? No evidence. Towards the end it seemed like you were just throwing in jutsu for the lolz. Hiruzen the 'strongest shinobi to ever live'? Yikes.
1, Your right, that it could be just as strong, as it has always been. Nothing has stated it got weaker.
2. By sensing i meant his superior senses such as his superior sense of smell.
3. I cliamed that in his prime he may have had strength similar, based off the fact that she uses chakra enhanced strength, and she used this while under hiruzens guidence. If its true that he knew all techniques, then i dont see why he wouldnt know how to enhance his strength with chakra as well.
4. Your absolutely right about speed. There is no eveidence to suggest it.. I was wrong for that, so ill remove it.
5.The justu are all jutsu of the leaf, catagorized by clan and single shinobi. If he can use all techniques in the leaf then he can used all techniques i listed.
It is said hiruzen is loved by everyone. and that he knows all jutsu that exist in the hidden leaf village. Whether clan specific or not the manga states that they are all known by hiruzen. he knows more the 1000 jutsu from the hidden leaf. It isnt impossible for him to learn clan specific techniques. They are just techniques that are kept secret from the rest of the world so that their clan remains special.
alright.
When you state hiruzen in his prime could use every technique in the hidden leaf, that category includes clan specific techniques. this i what i take from the manga. They dont say that he can use all techs, but clan specific. The manga states all techs.
1, Your right, that it could be just as strong, as it has always been. Nothing has stated it got weaker.
2. By sensing i meant his superior senses such as his superior sense of smell.
3. I cliamed that in his prime he may have had strength similar, based off the fact that she uses chakra enhanced strength, and she used this while under hiruzens guidence. If its true that he knew all techniques, then i dont see why he wouldnt know how to enhance his strength with chakra as well.
4. Your absolutely right about speed. There is no eveidence to suggest it.. I was wrong for that, so ill remove it.
5.The justu are all jutsu of the leaf, catagorized by clan and single shinobi. If he can use all techniques in the leaf then he can used all techniques i listed.
He can't use techniques that are impossible for him to use. The byakugan is required to gentle fist. Body expansion requires you to be fat because it consumes calories, Kage mane according to the databook was passed down only through the generations of the nara clan.
NINJUTSU; Hiden; Kage Mane no jutsu (Arcane; Shadow Imitation technique)
User: Nara Shikamaru
Supplementary; Close, Medium ranges; Rank: none
Main text
An odd ninjutsu that allows to extend one's own shadow, attach it to that of an enemy, thanks to which one can have the adversary mirror one's own movements. It was originally thought out somewhere in Konoha's region as a way to capture deers for their antlers. From there, it was treated as an Arcane move, and transmitted to the following generations. Normally, since the caster cannot broaden the area covered by their own shade, there's also a limit to how much the shadow can be expanded. However, the shadows between the enemy and oneself can also be employed to some extent. This most convenient and useful ninjutsu can even be used for escape purposes.
Caption
-The devilish shade takes hold of the enemy's body!!
Picture comment
-As observable here, Kage Mane no jutsu can force even the scariest of enemies into a funny stance.
-This technique can be quite powerful, depending on how one uses it!! A tailor-made jutsu for someone as brainy as Shikamaru.
I enjoyed your thread right up until you started assigning hiruzen 5 in everything based soly on the fact he was old when he died.Yes he was obviously stronger in these categories when he was younger but to rate him 5 in everything is defeats the purpose of your thread.I initially liked it because you were stating facts but now its turned into assumptions.Hiruzen was the strongest kage of his generation not of all time.Look it up in the manga.Hashirama is the strongest kage of all time and strongest shinobi of all time.This is backed up by madara himself.+ rep for the effort next time it you want people to agree or see your point don't give out fives in all categories when there is no definite proof.Because as i said earlier using proof in one section and then assuming in another makes the entire thread redundant.
Your right about the strength and speed parts, so i eliminated them from the thread. The manga says hiruzen is the strongest hokage and the god of shinobi in his prime (which is the strongest shinobi). Hashirama is only refered to as the strongest shinobi of his time and he is NEVER stated as the strongest hokage.. Kabuto even makes a comment that tell use that their are other people just as strong or stronger than hashirama.
I don't recall Kabuto using a technique similar. Tsunade generates electricity into the opponents body thus messing up they're ability to control their body properly. It's quite different then stopping chakra flow.
Furthermore only the byakugan can employ gentle fist look at these scans.
Ok. Then let me say it like this.. hiruzen is capable of using gentle fist.. He just cant use it as effectively as a hyuuga. But he can still channel chakra to his hands and attack an opponent which is the gentle fist style.
Hiruzen, as far as we know, didn't possess any sensing abilities. The reason why he was able to locate the two former Hokages in darkness was due to their
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.
As for your scan showing the Kyuubi being summoned, Kakashi also sensed something before it was summoned. This doesn't mean that Kakashi too is a sensor, its just what skilled ninjas develop like an instict if you will, like Itachi.
When i say sensing abilities i refer to the senses. He was able to channel chakra thru his nose to sniff out the kages, much like kibas clan.
And kakashi noticed that it got colder, while hiruzen sensed a bad phenomenon. But i understand your point. Im not saying hiruzen can sense anything like karin. I was just stateing that in his prime he had excellent senses.
everyperson has sensing abilities ****in dumbasses seeing smelling hearing and feeling are sensing abilities if you mean abnormal sensing abilities say that.
with way him being able to feel the kyuubi being summoned is ab normal
just like byakugans seeing things is an abnormal sensing. that makes them a sensor
Nice effort, but majority of what you said is wrong since you gave him abilities of other clans, other people without proof. I'm sure that when it's said he mastered all ninjutsu in the leaf it was only to show his great mastery in all ninja art, not that it was actually the case
Your right about the strength and speed parts, so i eliminated them from the thread. The manga says hiruzen is the strongest hokage and the god of shinobi in his prime (which is the strongest shinobi). Hashirama is only refered to as the strongest shinobi of his time and he is NEVER stated as the strongest hokage.. Kabuto even makes a comment that tell use that their are other people just as strong or stronger than hashirama.
Ok. Then let me say it like this.. hiruzen is capable of using gentle fist.. He just cant use it as effectively as a hyuuga. But he can still channel chakra to his hands and attack an opponent which is the gentle fist style.
When i say sensing abilities i refer to the senses. He was able to channel chakra thru his nose to sniff out the kages, much like kibas clan.
And kakashi noticed that it got colder, while hiruzen sensed a bad phenomenon. But i understand your point. Im not saying hiruzen can sense anything like karin. I was just stateing that in his prime he had excellent senses.
they dont get the diffrence. But its partailly my fault because i didnt write it clearly..
He probably has the chakra control, however he is incapable due to the fact that he does not have the byakugan. Without the byakugan you cannot pin point the enemies chakra network which is the purpose of jyuuken
Op i dont think you understand just how much damage you've done and in the end Owarij, Exaar, Siyo, Elitekakashi will have to come and do damage control :rofl:. Apart from stating the obvious you even copied ANIME techniques he didn't have in the manga. You didn't even stop there, you also claimed he had hidden techniques and kg aided techniques. What is worse is that some of these hidden technique's you claimed he had were also ANIME techniques. It still doesn't stop there. If only i was an hashirama fan i would enjoy this thread to the fullest
