Pre-Rinnegan Tobi vs Pre-Rinnegan Madara

[TobisPawn]

So its basically Sharingan Tobi vs EMS Madara. None of them have the Rinnegan. Tobi is how he was when he first confronted Konan, and Madara is how he was when he fought Hashirama (no Kyuubi).

Location: Kimimaro vs Gaara
Distance: 25 meters
Intel: Manga knowledge for both

Who wins? Can Madara figure out how Tobi's S/T techs work and take advantage of them (like Minato did) or make use of the 5-minute limit (like Konan did)? Or can Tobi evade and warp Madara?

My opinion: I'd give this to Tobi. EMS Madara has no counter to Tobi's warping like Edo Madara does (Shinra Tensei and possible Mokuton from body). And since, as of now, he has no knowledge on Tobi's S/T techs, it'd be even harder for him. Tobi can enter Madara's Susanoo and take him away with moderate difficulty, unless Madara has preset defenses like Konan or Torune, which he doesn't. Nor does he have Minato's reflexes and a S/T tech. And his Susanoo's activation doesn't stop Tobi's warping from below (like with Fu).

 

[TheSages456]

Ems madara

 

[TobisPawn]

Ems madara

Reason being? I'm interested to hear your argument.

 

[Awkward Linguist]

EMS Madara

 

[TobisPawn]

EMS Madara

And why do you think EMS Madara would win?

 

[Champ]

Tobi stop makin threads and finish our debate

 

[Bogard]

Tobi takes this. He is the main antagonist of this manga after all

 

[TobisPawn]

Tobi stop makin threads and finish our debate

xd I'll get to that

 

[Mugen Tsukyomi]

I would say ems madara because for 1 since all he did for his adult life is war and battle hashirama I'd say he would be able to analyze tobi rather quickly especially if konan was able to. I 2nd konan nearly killed tobi and forced him to use izanagi to save his life but still managed to take a away half of his mask part of his arm. Madara also has tremendous speed and a great mastery of ninjutsu unlike tobi who up until now has been a one trick pony with his space time ninjutsu and I just don't see him having a counter for everything that Madara brings to the table. If tobi had the rinnegan then it would be a different story but as is Madara Def takes it.

 

[Awkward Linguist]

And why do you think EMS Madara would win?

Because EMS Madara has susano, Amaterasu, Tsukyomi.
Whereas tobi only has the untouchable ability and transportation. And also the ability to control bijuus. EMS Madara can also control bijuus AND JINJURIKI. Tobi cannot control jinjuriki's.
Plus if tobi is hit with something like rasengan, he has to rip that part of the body of because hes a zetsu.

 

[LiirKo]

I would say EMS Madara, Tobi can't escape for long plus how is Tobi going to win? We know none of his attacks what so ever, so what if he warps Madara away, Tobi eventually would have to go into his pocket dimension where EMS Madara would be waiting for him with his perfect susanoo.

 

[Awkward Linguist]

I would say EMS Madara, Tobi can't escape for long plus how is Tobi going to win? We know none of his attacks what so ever, so what if he warps Madara away, Tobi eventually would have to go into his pocket dimension where EMS Madara would be waiting for him with his perfect susanoo.

sorry but EMS madara can use perfect susano when he has rinnegan, not EMS.

 

[Midday]

Because EMS Madara has susano, Amaterasu, Tsukyomi.
Whereas tobi only has the untouchable ability and transportation. And also the ability to control bijuus. EMS Madara can also control bijuus AND JINJURIKI. Tobi cannot control jinjuriki's.
Plus if tobi is hit with something like rasengan, he has to rip that part of the body of because hes a zetsu.

Tobi can control jinchuuriki's and Bijuu's whilst Madara has only been shown to control bijuu's.

Spoiler

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Madara can't damage Tobi, or it's going to be very difficult. It would be easier for Tobi to either kidnap him or snap his neck.

 

[TheSages456]

Reason being? I'm interested to hear your argument.

tobis intangibility gets worn down by perfect susano. madara is shown to be fast and agile so if hes diligent and paying attention, he can easily avoid getting warped. madara can use ribcage susano and use its arms to defend himself when tobi tries to warp him. im assuming that madara has amaterasu since sasuke stated that susano was the third mangekyo power and every other uchiha that had susano had amaterasu and tsukiyomi. amaterasu can keep tobi at bay. tobi isnt on ems madaras level. he is on alive itachis level. he stated that itachi wouldve killed him if he knew his secrets. madara is basically itachi times 1000.

 

[Exaar]

tobis intangibility gets worn down by perfect susano. madara is shown to be fast and agile so if hes diligent and paying attention, he can easily avoid getting warped. madara can use ribcage susano and use its arms to defend himself when tobi tries to warp him. im assuming that madara has amaterasu since sasuke stated that susano was the third mangekyo power and every other uchiha that had susano had amaterasu and tsukiyomi. amaterasu can keep tobi at bay. tobi isnt on ems madaras level. he is on alive itachis level. he stated that itachi wouldve killed him if he knew his secrets. madara is basically itachi times 1000.

I'm sorry but your Arguements are quite pathetic.

He can't Easily Avoid them, also he has minimal speed feats.
Minato had to use FTG to avoid tobi's warping, Even then tobi stated he would just warp him faster next time.

Unless madara can Track him when he teleports simply defending himself via susanoo isn't going to be quick enough.
Also Tobi has better Genjutsu feats than Madara and knows about Ms abilities.

Tobi already survived amaterasu.

Your basic logic is Tobi = Itachi < Madara.

The sooner you jump off the Hashirama/Madara band wagon the better.

 

[TheSages456]

I'm sorry but your Arguements are quite pathetic.

He can't Easily Avoid them, also he has minimal speed feats.
Minato had to use FTG to avoid tobi's warping, Even then tobi stated he would just warp him faster next time.

Unless madara can Track him when he teleports simply defending himself via susanoo isn't going to be quick enough.
Also Tobi has better Genjutsu feats than Madara and knows about Ms abilities.

Tobi already survived amaterasu.

Your basic logic is Tobi = Itachi < Madara.

The sooner you jump off the Hashirama/Madara band wagon the better.

no. tobi complimented minatos speed because he got away while being warped. tobi also grabbed minatos hand to make sure that he wouldnt get away so no tobi cant just walk up to someone and warp them. ribcage susano will suffice as a defense. you seriously think tobi is beating madara with genjutsu? madara has itachis abilities but stronger and sharingan tobi admitted that sick alive itachi couldve killed him with knowledge. the sooner you stop overrating tobi the better. people think that the weakest form of tobi can crap on legends. what the hell?

 

[TobisPawn]

tobis intangibility gets worn down by perfect susano. madara is shown to be fast and agile so if hes diligent and paying attention, he can easily avoid getting warped. madara can use ribcage susano and use its arms to defend himself when tobi tries to warp him. im assuming that madara has amaterasu since sasuke stated that susano was the third mangekyo power and every other uchiha that had susano had amaterasu and tsukiyomi. amaterasu can keep tobi at bay. tobi isnt on ems madaras level. he is on alive itachis level. he stated that itachi wouldve killed him if he knew his secrets. madara is basically itachi times 1000.

How exactly does Madara continuously attack Tobi for 5 minutes? Tobi wont be standing still. He can sink underground to avoid any attacks, and go tangible at certain points to refresh his 5 minute limit.

And Madara isn't as fast as Minato's FTG, nor does he have Shinra Tensei or Mokuton in this situation. If Madara is in his Perfect Susanoo, and Tobi warps over and starts warping, he can't really do much about it in the little time he has.

no. tobi complimented minatos speed because he got away while being warped. tobi also grabbed minatos hand to make sure that he wouldnt get away so no tobi cant just walk up to someone and warp them. ribcage susano will suffice as a defense. you seriously think tobi is beating madara with genjutsu? madara has itachis abilities but stronger and sharingan tobi admitted that sick alive itachi couldve killed him with knowledge. the sooner you stop overrating tobi the better. people think that the weakest form of tobi can crap on legends. what the hell?

He walked over and warped Fu and Torune. He doesn't have to be necessarily grabbing them. He also warped Fu from beneath him (the ground) where the rib cage wouldn't reach. And Madara doesn't have knowledge on Tobi's S/T techs, nor is he as smart as Itachi. This is a head on fight too. Itachi could have assassinated Tobi..

 

[Oronagato]

How exactly does Madara continuously attack Tobi for 5 minutes? Tobi wont be standing still. He can sink underground to avoid any attacks, and go tangible at certain points to refresh his 5 minute limit.

And Madara isn't as fast as Minato's FTG, nor does he have Shinra Tensei or Mokuton in this situation. If Madara is in his Perfect Susanoo, and Tobi warps over and starts warping, he can't really do much about it in the little time he has.




He walked over and warped Fu and Torune. He also warped Fu from beneath him (the ground) where the rib cage doesn't reach. And Madara doesn't have knowledge on Tobi's S/T techs, nor is he as smart as Itachi.

are you seriously underestimating Madara's intelligence

 

[Exaar]

no. tobi complimented minatos speed because he got away while being warped. tobi also grabbed minatos hand to make sure that he wouldnt get away so no tobi cant just walk up to someone and warp them. ribcage susano will suffice as a defense. you seriously think tobi is beating madara with genjutsu? madara has itachis abilities but stronger and sharingan tobi admitted that sick alive itachi couldve killed him with knowledge. the sooner you stop overrating tobi the better. people think that the weakest form of tobi can crap on legends. what the hell?

You make it sound like Tobi is just gonna walk up to him and try to Warp him.

tobi having a Little chat with Danzo

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Next thing he appears behind Torune and almost instantly Warps him

Spoiler

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Simply activating susanoo isn't quick enough to evade tobi's Warping speed.


Tobi is controlling 6, Count them 6 Biiju, Madara's best feat is just one Bijuu, Be it the 9tails but tobi still has him beat in the area.

Madara being a "legend" or not changes shit, He could be the Sages Boy toy for all i care.

are you seriously underestimating Madara's intelligence

As far as Feats go Itachi is above him in intelligence.

 

[TobisPawn]

are you seriously underestimating Madara's intelligence

Are you saying he has full knowledge of Tobi's ability, and that he's as smart as Itachi? U_U