PNJ is a necessity.

chaos control

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People seem to hate PNJ. Imagine the series without PNJ however:

Alternate ending 1: Haku kills Naruto and Sasuke. End of series.

Alternate ending 2: Naruto just goes in and soloes every villain in 5 seconds (this one is for those of you who just hate power ups).

Alternate ending 3: Everyone just dies.

One of these is what would happen if we didn't have the infamous PNJ. This is why PNJ and "BS" power ups are necessary. Wouldn't you get bored if the series was like one of those endings?
 

hixa kuogame

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without the plot there wouldnt be a story
 

Shunsin no Shisui

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Your getting the wrong idea of PnJ. :| PnJ is when there is an OP character losing to a character who is seemingly weaker than him. hmm Examples from the manga/anime include: Obito Vs Kakashi, Madara Vs Hashirama, Izuna Vs Tobirama, Pein Vs Naruto, Nagato Vs Itachi, Shisui Vs Danzo and Sasuke Vs Danzo. :eww:
 

raziel777

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PNJ is only bad when it's overused, when it's the easy way out that the author chooses instead of constructing a logical story
 

take it easy

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Your getting the wrong idea of PnJ. :| PnJ is when there is an OP character losing to a character who is seemingly weaker than him. hmm Examples from the manga/anime include: Obito Vs Kakashi, Madara Vs Hashirama, Izuna Vs Tobirama, Pein Vs Naruto, Nagato Vs Itachi, Shisui Vs Danzo and Sasuke Vs Danzo. :eww:
bolded not belong to pnj
 

KingHashirama

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I think people tend to forget that the only reason their characters even got the powers they got was due to "plot no jutsu".. otherwise they would've been mere fodders.


Your getting the wrong idea of PnJ. :| PnJ is when there is an OP character losing to a character who is seemingly weaker than him. hmm Examples from the manga/anime include: Obito Vs Kakashi, Madara Vs Hashirama, Izuna Vs Tobirama, Pein Vs Naruto, Nagato Vs Itachi, Shisui Vs Danzo and Sasuke Vs Danzo. :eww:

And then the fans B*tching about the character loosing, not matter how justifiable the reason is right?
 

chaos control

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Your getting the wrong idea of PnJ. :| PnJ is when there is an OP character losing to a character who is seemingly weaker than him. hmm Examples from the manga/anime include: Obito Vs Kakashi, Madara Vs Hashirama, Izuna Vs Tobirama, Pein Vs Naruto, Nagato Vs Itachi, Shisui Vs Danzo and Sasuke Vs Danzo. :eww:

I know this. I'm saying that this is what is necessary. If the seemingly weaker character is a hero, then obviously that hero has to win (unless a loss was actually planned by the writer like in Jirayia's fight with Pain). What I'm asking is, do you seriously just want to see the hero just be naturally stronger than the villain from the start? If so, where is the struggle in that? What is the point of a battle manga if the hero always wins with ease and if there is no sense of overcoming adversity against all odds? That is why PNJ is necessary. Without it, the hero would either lose or the writer would have to make it where there was no struggle. What's the point of a series without struggle?
 

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IMO PNJ is something when an OP charecter has to loose for the weaker one in a very boaring way.That shows lack of creativity.You do not see more techniques or any evolvement of charecters skills but he defeats the OP charecter.That looks like it was done for the plots sake.It is not necessory if they include more action and techniques .
 

Shunsin no Shisui

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bolded not belong to pnj

Yes it is. EMS Madara was clearly stronger than Hashirama with a Susano that could slice mountains with just a slight swing of the blade. Not to mention, the Susano's power was compared to a tailed beast's. Technically you could say, Madara had two tailed beasts by his side(like having two Kyubi) while Hashirama had none. And then Kishi's trolling begins and gives Hashirama a freaking statue as big as a country with many hands that can fire fists and then it solos Susano with ease as if it were opening the curtains or something. :eww:

Then we have Izuna who is an Uchiha and possesses not just a 3-tomoe base sharingan but a Mangekyo as well which comes with higher level genjutsu(Tsukuyomi), powerful inextinguishable ninjutsu that can be spammed in an instant(Amaterasu) and a humanoid structure(Susano) that's like a partner which can be used for defensive purposes and offensive purposes. But we see Tobirama who is master in Suiton only, still defeating him and yet has never shown proof of countering the aformentioned MS abilities. U_U

Pein who was considered a God-like character and was clearly more powerful than Naruto who was young, inexperienced and lacking certain battle intelligence. Yet he is the one ending up as the winner and someone who is perceived as 'God' is the loser? :|

The same thing can be said about the time he faced Itachi. For some strange reason though, Nagato was considered to be better in edo form than alive when he had the Pain paths?? :erm: How can this be when Pein was mobile, more analytical and had the advantage due to the number of bodies?

I know what your wondering, but my point is that these were some of the moments when Kishi just went, "You know what, **** logic". :devil: I mean there should've atleast been a good logical explanation for this but no, we got nothing. hmm

I know this. I'm saying that this is what is necessary. If the seemingly weaker character is a hero, then obviously that hero has to win (unless a loss was actually planned by the writer like in Jirayia's fight with Pain). What I'm asking is, do you seriously just want to see the hero just be naturally stronger than the villain from the start? If so, where is the struggle in that? What is the point of a battle manga if the hero always wins with ease and if there is no sense of overcoming adversity against all odds? That is why PNJ is necessary. Without it, the hero would either lose or the writer would have to make it where there was no struggle. What's the point of a series without struggle?

I don't want to see a hero stronger than his/her opponents from the start. However, there should atleast be a logical build up to it. How old is Naruto? About 16-17 right? How the **** can he be God-level(in a way) while so young? The reason he is perceived as God-level is because he just defeated a 'God'(Pein). It's not about the hero winning with ease but rather how the hero works his way up logically and finally defeats the enemy in an evenly fair fight. The struggle here is when the hero prepares and work his way up to glory and fame. :yeah: At some point the villain could also gain a great victory as in gaining control of a land after invading it. But then the hero comes in the end and defeats the villain.
 

awesomeseimei

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Watching an underdog hero defeating OP villains while overcoming all odds is interesting, but PNJ refers to logic-defying ways of writing such battles. Of course some people use it to complain about their faves losing, but sometimes it's more justified. For example, why exactly would Kakuzu, the experienced veteran, fall for a clone trick?

To be honest I myself don't really care about those things, of course the hero will always win. But sometimes those victories can use better writing, and you'll hear a ton of different opinions on that :|
 

chaos control

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Yes it is. EMS Madara was clearly stronger than Hashirama with a Susano that could slice mountains with just a slight swing of the blade. Not to mention, the Susano's power was compared to a tailed beast's. Technically you could say, Madara had two tailed beasts by his side(like having two Kyubi) while Hashirama had none. And then Kishi's trolling begins and gives Hashirama a freaking statue as big as a country with many hands that can fire fists and then it solos Susano with ease as if it were opening the curtains or something. :eww:

Then we have Izuna who is an Uchiha and possesses not just a 3-tomoe base sharingan but a Mangekyo as well which comes with higher level genjutsu(Tsukuyomi), powerful inextinguishable ninjutsu that can be spammed in an instant(Amaterasu) and a humanoid structure(Susano) that's like a partner which can be used for defensive purposes and offensive purposes. But we see Tobirama who is master in Suiton only, still defeating him and yet has never shown proof of countering the aformentioned MS abilities. U_U

Pein who was considered a God-like character and was clearly more powerful than Naruto who was young, inexperienced and lacking certain battle intelligence. Yet he is the one ending up as the winner and someone who is perceived as 'God' is the loser? :|

The same thing can be said about the time he faced Itachi. For some strange reason though, Nagato was considered to be better in edo form than alive when he had the Pain paths?? :erm: How can this be when Pein was mobile, more analytical and had the advantage due to the number of bodies?

I know what your wondering, but my point is that these were some of the moments when Kishi just went, "You know what, **** logic". :devil: I mean there should've atleast been a good logical explanation for this but no, we got nothing. hmm



I don't want to see a hero stronger than his/her opponents from the start. However, there should atleast be a logical build up to it. How old is Naruto? About 16-17 right? How the **** can he be God-level(in a way) while so young? The reason he is perceived as God-level is because he just defeated a 'God'(Pein). It's not about the hero winning with ease but rather how the hero works his way up logically and finally defeats the enemy in an evenly fair fight. The struggle here is when the hero prepares and work his way up to glory and fame. :yeah: At some point the villain could also gain a great victory as in gaining control of a land after invading it. But then the hero comes in the end and defeats the villain.

This is not that type of manga. Naruto is a shinobi right now. Therefore, he needs to be as strong as possible right now. He doesn't have time to "build up to it". It's not like he could ask Pain or Obito "Hey guys, could you wait about 5 or 10 years before you come to try to capture me? That way, I can build up to your level". Furthermore, unlike some animes where characters always have time to train for their opponents (ie. Raditz: The sayains will arrive in two years. Trunks: The androids will arrive in 3 years Cell: The cell games will be in x number of days (I forgot the number)), being a shinobi is an actual job. It is a career. Therefore Naruto doesn't have time to be leisurely training. Also, if Kishi had Naruto build up to it, then what would be the point of even showing Naruto at his current age? He might as well have started the series with Naruto as an adult. What would he do? Just have Naruto always fight really weak opponents until he becomes an adult? Talk about boring and repetitive!
 

Shadow Phantasm

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PNJ is okay when used in small amounts,however it's being used as a crutch for lazy writing most of the time.
 

Shadow Phantasm

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This is not that type of manga. Naruto is a shinobi right now. Therefore, he needs to be as strong as possible right now. He doesn't have time to "build up to it". It's not like he could ask Pain or Obito "Hey guys, could you wait about 5 or 10 years before you come to try to capture me? That way, I can build up to your level". Furthermore, unlike some animes where characters always have time to train for their opponents (ie. Raditz: The sayains will arrive in two years. Trunks: The androids will arrive in 3 years Cell: The cell games will be in x number of days (I forgot the number)), being a shinobi is an actual job. It is a career. Therefore Naruto doesn't have time to be leisurely training. Also, if Kishi had Naruto build up to it, then what would be the point of even showing Naruto at his current age? He might as well have started the series with Naruto as an adult. What would he do? Just have Naruto always fight really weak opponents until he becomes an adult? Talk about boring and repetitive!
Atleast building up to a major fight is better than being handed out power ups whenever the situation calls for it.
 

chaos control

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PNJ is okay when used in small amounts,however it's being used as a crutch for lazy writing most of the time.

How is it lazy? Not everyone has time to be taking 10 or 20 years to get stronger. Look at my response to Shunsin no Shisui's post up above.
 

Shadow Phantasm

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How is it lazy? Not everyone has time to be taking 10 or 20 years to get stronger. Look at my response to Shunsin no Shisui's post up above.
Come on now....Kakuzu a 100 year vet was fooled by a Shadow Clone during his fight with Naruto.Juubito who was a freaking demi god was defeated with words,Madara survived getting ping ponged by seven bijuu and then was magically able to use Susanoo despite being blind.

This isn't about training for 10 or 20 years,this is about certain events that happen in ways that would'nt be possible unless the writer is winging it.
 

chaos control

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Atleast building up to a major fight is better than being handed out power ups whenever the situation calls for it.

He was not handed out power ups. He trained to get sage mode and wind style. He fought Kurama to get KCM and he trained with KCM. He befriended Kurama to get BM (and it wasn't sudden. Remember, Kurama started warming up to Naruto after Naruto escaped turtle island when he said that he wanted to do something about Kurama's hatred. Kurama even stopped taking chakara from Naruto. Then, Kurama willingly helped Naruto against Madara. The foreshadowing for Bijuu mode and Naruto/Kurama's friendship was plentiful.) As for BSM, that was simply combining 2 powers that he already had.
 

chaos control

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Come on now....Kakuzu a 100 year vet was fooled by a Shadow Clone during his fight with Naruto.Juubito who was a freaking demi god was defeated with words,Madara survived getting ping ponged by seven bijuu and then was magically able to use Susanoo despite being blind.

This isn't about training for 10 or 20 years,this is about certain events that happen in ways that would'nt be possible unless the writer is winging it.

No. Juubito was defeated by a senjutsu susanoo covered Kurama and an army. The words just changed his resolve. Don't respond to this post yet until somewhere between 3 to 4 o clock I have to go to Church now. I'm not done with this post.
 

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in some cases yes.

but its not needed in ever situtation that naruto is in
 
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