As I said. Who said I intended Minamoto to read it? I intended for it to be a counter argument for others to read, just so they would have even less of a chance agreeing with Minamoto.
Dude believe me Madara is gonna come back...hahaha i cant wait to see these madara h8ers' reaction when he comes back !!!....Madara is kishimoto's masterpiece !!
Dude believe me Madara is gonna come back...hahaha i cant wait to see these madara h8ers' reaction when he comes back !!!....Madara is kishimoto's masterpiece !!
Madara was the reall Tobi...when tobidara emerges...Madara is gonna prove the allied shinobies that this reality is indeed full of lies...Madara wil prove it in the battlefield that his MEP is worth implementing !!...what you thought was truth called tobi being obito will end up being a mere illusion..CUZ THE REALL MASKED MAN WAS NONE THEN MADARA...TOBIDARA!!!
Madara was the reall Tobi...when tobidara emerges...Madara is gonna prove the allied shinobies that this reality is indeed full of lies...Madara wil prove it in the battlefield that his MEP is worth implementing !!...what you thought was truth called tobi being obito will end up being a mere illusion..CUZ THE REALL MASKED MAN WAS NONE THEN MADARA...TOBIDARA!!!
Madara was the reall Tobi...when tobidara emerges...Madara is gonna prove the allied shinobies that this reality is indeed full of lies...Madara wil prove it in the battlefield that his MEP is worth implementing !!...what you thought was truth called tobi being obito will end up being a mere illusion..CUZ THE REALL MASKED MAN WAS NONE THEN MADARA...TOBIDARA!!!
Lets see, Madara is "dead", Obito was Tobi and Spiral Zetsu was Yamato. Mugen Tsukuyomi was faulty plan as it would turn everyone into Zetsus after a while, something Madara never knew about. So, his plan is not worth it as it kills of humanity.
minamoto just because you think your idea will come true doent mean it will
you are not kishimoto nor will you ever be kishimoto doesnt follow your insane logic nor will he ever follow it tobidara is only real in your head and thats where it should stay.
Madara's ideal of peace was an illusion which he manipulated, a world where he was the God who decided and created everything in order to give everyone the peace they so deeply wished for. However there were two flaws to this plan which only Obito & Madara were against and didn't know about.
Naruto said that peace created within an illusion is nothing else but that, a fake illusion. Naruto said that peace doesn't really mean a thing unless its obtained by free will, if people are forced into it then its completely pointless. This is the point in which Madara and Obito disagreed with Naruto as they meant that the world could never obtain peace without being forced into it. (This is to Madara's statement about Yin/Yang.) The other flaws is that everyone will turn into Zetsus over the course of time, something Madara and Obito most likely didn't know about.
" Where there exists light, there will also exist shadows. "
This is the essences of the meaning behind Yin/Yang. Two forces which are complete opposites, yet they exist for each other. (Like in the sense that Sasuke cannot do a thing against Kaguya without Naruto, and Naruto cannot do a thing without Sasuke. They are depended on each other.) Madara stated that once these two forces were combined, true peace would be obtained. However, he thought that the meaning behind those words were that when one person gains these two powers, they will be able to obtain peace. A if power is contained within one person, they will be consumed by power. One person, one ideal, one result.
Peace cannot be obtained that way, at least not a meaningful peace. Peace is obtained when people understand and realise the world around them and accept it for what it is then accept its people and understand their feelings. Through doing that, people would understand others resolve tor reach their goal, their hatred, their pain and their loneliness. (This has been the theme of Naruto ever since the start.) With Kakashi, Naruto learned to overlook the differences and work together as a team. With Sasuke, Naruto learned the pain of rivalry and darkness. With Nagato/Pain, Naruto learned what pain really is and how it reflects on the world around them. With Jiraya's death, Naruto learned about loss and how it can easily consume one person alone. With his childhood he learned how loneliness can create hatred and give birth to ill feelings. And with Obito he understood how despair can drive someone to the edge, to the point where all they wish for is the past.
Sasuke whom has also understood all of these feelings has chosen a different path than Naruto. That is why they are the Yin and Yang of the world, the main spectre of the future. They are are the ones that will decide the future, as they are the ones who fully understand the world and others. They understand the true meaning of peace, hatred and darkness. Unlike Madara, who only had a ideal of it and only partial knowledge of it. That is why peace cannot be obtained by a single individual, as peace requires two opposite forces to work together or to at least balance each other out. One person has one ideal, one plan and one result. There is no opposite force to drive them.
dude your thread is the general idea of naruto's and hagoromo's and jiraiya's ideals..my thread is a counterargument to that...you are creating a loop here...you see what you say in your thread??...thats what madara was thinkng too?...poeple sadly will never understand each others...even if they do..that will be just for limited period of time, then a new evil era will start again...madara got tired of this..why do we humain seek for peace but at the same times creat wars????...this kestioning is legit and makes sence...now madara proposed us the dreamworld as the best solution....only a strong genjutsu will stop the pains of humanity...Naruto's idealogy is wrong and hold no meanings...but madara at least is right...the history of humainity is a history of struggles and wars...its like a cursed destiny...
-never ever compare madara's philosophie with naruto's or hagoromo's.....becuz Madara is a true thinker although his methods are a bit not apreciatted
Lets see, Madara is "dead", Obito was Tobi and Spiral Zetsu was Yamato. Mugen Tsukuyomi was faulty plan as it would turn everyone into Zetsus after a while, something Madara never knew about. So, his plan is not worth it as it kills of humanity.
in the manga it appears that kaguya is none other then shinju....but if Kaguya is the shinju itself...then why did it go mad and wanted back it's chakra that was stolen from kaguya herself?? ...
-big big naruto problematic here...so whats the most plausible theory or answer that can solve this Mysterious Mystery..
-i honestly do not know what happned to kaguya so that she become the shinju herself....but let's read what hagoromo said about his momy when he and his bro fought the juubi
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there's no reason for hagoromo to repent his mom's sins by fighting the Juubi, if the Juubi had nothing to do with kaguya's evil deeds...unless kaguya herself is the juubi who hagoromo tried to fight !!
-the chakra fruit might signify the birth of a new god tree...when kaguya ate it she turned into a new shinju full of chakra....
so there could have been was 2 god trees :
1)- the originall god tree wich was sealed within hagoromo's brother
2)-the new born god tree (chakra fruit) wich is kaguya herself...who was sealed within hagoromo...BUT WAIT !!...Hagoromo was so wise and clever...he actually didn't seal kaguya but instead devised a jutsu called "Sozo Banbutsu" and devivided the Juubi into 2 beings :
A)-the Gedo mazo or the empty shell of Juubi wich also represents kaguya and prisons her soul (YIN)..and becuz of its danger..hagoromo sealed it within the Moon in space..its as if Hagoromo sen it back where it originally came from..
B)-the 9 tailed beasts wich is the immense chakra of shinju devided into 9 bijuus and they represent the good side of shiniju (yang)...and that's why hagoromo belived that the tailed beasts chakra could be used for noble ends...
Madara's mastermind plan that involves Kaguya
-or rather there are 2 hypothesis :
1-either Madara is a genious Man
2-or he is the victim of his stupidity..
so lets better opt for option one and prove why Madara is a mstermind man :
But first : why black zetsu is Kaguya's will???
-like i said the Gedo Mazo represents kaguya...now Rememeber the scene when Madara created black zetsu??...
if you noticed that scene well you would notice that when Madara created the black zetsu and stuck it into white zetsu?.. he was at the same time attached to the gedo mazo (kaguya)...so basically Madara become mediume between gedo mazo (kaguya ) and white zetsu....so the black matter was produced oroginally from gedo mazo (kaguya) rather then Madara...
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now the problem is :was Madara aware of what he was doing??..when he created the black zetsu...cuz he somehow
freed kaguya ....
-the manga evidences about this are barely available...but i think Madara wasn't dumb stupid...on the contrary he was
aware of kaguya's possibility to return...
-so all Madara's researches in the cave were for the sake strenghtning his will and subdue Kaguya's...
-for exemple the white zetsus Madara created proves that he somhow learned the story of kaguya's army turning into a white zetsus via the infinit tsukoyomi...but becuz Madara is smart....he didn't use the same method kaguya used to creat her white zetsus army...Madara instead of using kaguya's powers...he used hagoromo's powers...so basically what Madara did is using a banbutsu sozo instead of inifnit tsukoyomi to creat his white zetsus army....
-now what is sozo banbutsu...in short its a high level of genjutsu that might turn illusion into reality....and sozo banbutsu is the mother of izanagi ....so with his imaginations Madara created the shape of white zetsus..and also shaped their personalities...for exemple goofy spiral zetsu...and talkative white zetsu...and with the phisical energy Madara made them living beings....
-madara's white zetsus weren't humain being tronsformed into white zetsus...they were just androids..-thats how madara's white zetsu will obey only Madara....where'as kaguyas white zetsu created by effect of infinit tsukoyomi will only obey kaguya...
-it could happen that MADARA'S WHITE ZETSU ARMIES WILL FIGHT AGAINST KAGUYA'S !!!
NOTE : even the black zetsu could still be madara's will mixed with kaguya's..thats is just to say that black zetsu isn't 100% kaguya's will....
-so like i said Madara was very causious..so what he did was spreading his will (MADARA) into every pawn or thing he deems necessary for his Moon eye plan...
-madara transforms his will into a chakra rode and implant it with the Gedo Mazo...so that when juubi is revived it will respond to Madara's will..
-he also gave inserted his will to the white zetsus via sozo banbutsu so that they obey only him..
-madara also shaped his will into a black rode and instructed obito to use it when he uses the rikudo no jutsu..
Notice : you remember when kabuto asked edomadara if he would capture kiyubi...then Edomadara said :"no actually there's a jutsu i wanna try...MOKOUTEN...JOUKAI KOUTEN !!"...so Madara was testing out joukai kouten befor he uses it during infinit tsukoyomi
-but the ultimate trumpcard madara did wich is his shocking secret is that he is gonna use sozo banbutso and seal his empty shelll within obito..and controll him...and thats how madara or the 2nd madara (TOBIDARA) was still alive despite old madara disconnecting himself from the Mazo...madara was the reall tobi...TOBIDARA...
-what black zetsu stabbed was the rejuveniled vessel of Madara...But the other Madara is still around somewhere...
- shortly after the obito reaveal...and exactly in chapter 601...kishimoto gave us a huge sign of Madara being still alive despite edomadara been resurected....its as if kishimoto was trying to tell us after the Obito reveal..." i indeed revealed obito to be the masked man Tobi....BUT WAIT !!..DONT BE TOO HASTY...NOTICE THIS MANGA EVIDENCE WELL...cuz what you thought was truth called tobi is obito...MIGHT END UP BEING A MERE ILLUSION"
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-Madara isn't dumb stupid...even if the infinit tsukoyomi is kaguya's idea...but Madara didn't apply kaguya's plan as it is..after he read the story of kaguya and juuvi and ritual of IT...he just took the ideas that fits his own Moon eye plan...so what madara devised wasnt the inifnit tsukoyomi..but its the "dreamworld"...cuz unlike kaguya who will attach everyone wia mokuton and made him see his own dream...Madara is going to drag all poeple inside a genjutsu dimension and make them live false experiences where their wishes could become true!!..its like a paradize.. or better said A GENJUTSUED SOCIETY !
dude your thread is the general idea of naruto's and hagoromo's and jiraiya's ideals..my thread is a counterargument to that...you are creating a loop here...you see what you say in your thread??...thats what madara was thinkng too?...poeple sadly will never understand each others...even if they do..that will be just for limited period of time, then a new evil era will start again...madara got tired of this..why do we humain seek for peace but at the same times creat wars????...this kestioning is legit and makes sence...now madara proposed us the dreamworld as the best solution....only a strong genjutsu will stop the pains of humanity...Naruto's idealogy is wrong and hold no meanings...but madara at least is right...the history of humainity is a history of struggles and wars...its like a cursed destiny...
-never ever compare madara's philosophie with naruto's or hagoromo's.....becuz Madara is a true thinker although his methods are a bit not apreciatted
You said earlier that you don't approve of Madara's ideal plan, and his plan makes no sense what so ever. In the idea, it does make a great deal of sense. But it has been proven that his plan would be completely pointless as he would have ended up turning everyone into Zetsus if they were inside the Genjutsu for too long. Meaning that even his "Infinite Dreamworld" wouldn't be infinite and only a temporary solution to the problem. (Madara's plan was everything but a solution. It was a form of fake peace that would never really have ended well for anyone.)
Naruto's ideal is peace obtained through everyone understanding each other and working together. That ideal is a key to true peace and that is what Naruto has been trying to say. Naruto's ideal may be or may not be permanent. Depending on how they handle the coming generations.
You said earlier that you don't approve of Madara's ideal plan, and his plan makes no sense what so ever. In the idea, it does make a great deal of sense. But it has been proven that his plan would be completely pointless as he would have ended up turning everyone into Zetsus if they were inside the Genjutsu for too long. Meaning that even his "Infinite Dreamworld" wouldn't be infinite and only a temporary solution to the problem. (Madara's plan was everything but a solution. It was a form of fake peace that would never really have ended well for anyone.)
Naruto's ideal is peace obtained through everyone understanding each other and working together. That ideal is a key to true peace and that is what Naruto has been trying to say. Naruto's ideal may be or may not be permanent. Depending on how they handle the coming generations.
in the manga it appears that kaguya is none other then shinju....but if Kaguya is the shinju itself...then why did it go mad and wanted back it's chakra that was stolen from kaguya herself?? ...
-big big naruto problematic here...so whats the most plausible theory or answer that can solve this Mysterious Mystery..
-i honestly do not know what happned to kaguya so that she become the shinju herself....but let's read what hagoromo said about his momy when he and his bro fought the juubi
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there's no reason for hagoromo to repent his mom's sins by fighting the Juubi, if the Juubi had nothing to do with kaguya's evil deeds...unless kaguya herself is the juubi who hagoromo tried to fight !!
-the chakra fruit might signify the birth of a new god tree...when kaguya ate it she turned into a new shinju full of chakra....
so there could have been was 2 god trees :
1)- the originall god tree wich was sealed within hagoromo's brother
2)-the new born god tree (chakra fruit) wich is kaguya herself...who was sealed within hagoromo...BUT WAIT !!...Hagoromo was so wise and clever...he actually didn't seal kaguya but instead devised a jutsu called "Sozo Banbutsu" and devivided the Juubi into 2 beings :
A)-the Gedo mazo or the empty shell of Juubi wich also represents kaguya and prisons her soul (YIN)..and becuz of its danger..hagoromo sealed it within the Moon in space..its as if Hagoromo sen it back where it originally came from..
B)-the 9 tailed beasts wich is the immense chakra of shinju devided into 9 bijuus and they represent the good side of shiniju (yang)...and that's why hagoromo belived that the tailed beasts chakra could be used for noble ends...
I'd rather say its more likely that Kaguya created the first Shinju on a new earth to create an army of nature for some reason. (The Zetsus are connected to nature.) But that is another theory I made a little while ago. Now unto the factual faults you have here.
There were only 1 Shinju and one Juubi. The Shinju became or died off and as a result the Juubi emerged, following my theory of his being Kaguya, she either lost control over her power or unleashed it all and turned into the Juubi as a result. (Much like what almost happen to Obito.) Also, Hagoromo used "Creation of all Things" to split the Juubi into two parts. One was the Gedo Statue, the other was the Nine Bijuus. Here is where you have some facts wrong.
Yin is the spiritual power and chakra of the world, Yang is the physical power and life force of the world. The Gedo Mazou Statue is the Yang part of the Juubi, as its physical counterpart while the Bijuu's are its Yin. The spiritual chakra split into creatures of their own. Hagoromo sealed the Gedo into the moon or another location because he was unable to completely destroy it. (For unknown reasons as we saw Kakashi being able to cut the arm off it.) Also, there is no proof that Kaguya came from the moon.
The Gedo and Bijuus aren't good or bad, they a pure. Hagoromo believed that the Bijuu's could help bring balance as they held enormous power and they had a mind of their own, unlike the Gedo Statue. However, the humans used the Bijuu's as weapons.
Madara was manipulated by Kaguya and Black Zetsu from the very beginning, he though he knew everything, yet in the end he never really knew a thing. What he knew all came from the Uchiha tablet, which Hagoromo wrote. This tablet didn't contain information on Kaguya however, only how to achieve Mugen Tsukuyomi. It contained nothing of the risks behind this or the true meaning of this "plan" created by Kaguya. Madara was no mastermind. Mugen Tsukuyomi was originally Kaguya's plan, not Madaras. The Zetsus were originally Kaguya's, same with Black Zetsu.
You are failing to see what Itachi meant by that. Also here is the quote from Itachi when he talks about reality:
"People live their lives bound by what they accept as correct and true. That's how they define "reality". But what does it mean to be "correct" or "true"? Merely vague concepts… their "reality" may all be a mirage. Can we consider them to simply be living in their own world, shaped by their beliefs?"
Reality is fluid and we chose how we see it, that is what he means. We chose to ignore what we want to create our "ideal" world and live in that. But in the end that world is nothing but an illusion, Itachi is talking about Madara's plan in some form. Madara wants to force everyone into their own illusion and into his dream. While in reality that is just a fake reality. Naruto wants to go beyond on this. He wants to see reality for what it really is, and not neglect a single thing. Too see the darkness, the light and to understand both then live on acknowledging the reality of both. That is peace with meaning.
You are failing to see what Itachi meant by that. Also here is the quote from Itachi when he talks about reality:
"People live their lives bound by what they accept as correct and true. That's how they define "reality". But what does it mean to be "correct" or "true"? Merely vague concepts… their "reality" may all be a mirage. Can we consider them to simply be living in their own world, shaped by their beliefs?"
Reality is fluid and we chose how we see it, that is what he means. We chose to ignore what we want to create our "ideal" world and live in that. But in the end that world is nothing but an illusion, Itachi is talking about Madara's plan in some form. Madara wants to force everyone into their own illusion and into his dream. While in reality that is just a fake reality. Naruto wants to go beyond on this. He wants to see reality for what it really is, and not neglect a single thing. Too see the darkness, the light and to understand both then live on acknowledging the reality of both. That is peace with meaning.