[VS] Pain vs Jiraya&Orochimaru

[Zexion~]

Kusanagi works on 5/6 of the pain bodies. Asura is the only thing that it won’t kill because of its durability feats

I didn't say it just wouldn't hurt them I'm saying Oro isn't striking any Path with the sword JIRAIYA IS NOT ENOUGH OF A DISTRACTION HERE.

 

[Forbidden Technique]

How can you call Naraka path fodder when it was was the reason SM jiraiya was fodderized? lol

The only person that can sense the Chameleon is Shima due to her ability to sense:

You must be registered for see images

This is something Pain knows as well as he has full intel. So to state that hiding in Chameleon is bad because "Everyone" can sense it is false.

Because it was taken out by Konohamaru, meaning it's physical abilities are fodder in comparison to this level of opponents. So when you go on about the Paths all attacking in unison, it makes zero difference when some of them are far outclassed. And SM Jiraiya was never fodderized.

Shima is part of Jiraiya, so yes they all can sense the Chameleon. Orochimaru and his snake summons

You must be registered for see links

the Chameleon. Mu should be able to sense the Chameleon. So, once again, this literally accomplishes nothing. Everyone can sense and kill it easily.

Good, Deva can simply use 1 arm to pull Jiraiya ma/pa
Use the other arm to pull Mu
Deva canonically used both hands to perform a single jutsu on multiple targets.

You must be registered for see images

Furthermore, people tend to forget when Deva uses his ability. The user is paralyzed as well with the exception of 6 tail Naruto which overpowered it.

You must be registered for see images

Frog Song requires tremendous time and prep. This is why Jiraiya hid while the pain's searched for them. This time, Pain has full intel so he knows what's coming.

Lol, Universal Pull does not paralyze its targets. If Kakashi's bunshin can take a chain out of his pouch and accurately throw it, SM Jiraiya can easily do something too.

You must be registered for see images

You're thinking of Gama Rinsho. Frog Song takes zero prep time, and completely disorients the target.

Spoiler

You must be registered for see images

How is orochimaru going to sneak up on someone with 6 different view points working together?

You must be registered for see images

You must be registered for see images

Because, A) nothing suggests the 6POP can see underground, B) Mayfly is undetectable, and C) Frog Song will paralyze Deva.

You must be registered for see images

Orochimaru took Zetsu's body, so yes, he can use their techniques.

Animal path can summon all it's summons simultaneously which is enough to hold 3rd Raikage and Orochimaru back

Deva Path can pull or push two targets simultaneously meaning he can pull both Jiraiya and Mu neutralizing their ability to counter while the other paths prepare to counter/finish. EVERY person caught in Deva's ability was paralyzed in flight with the exception of naruto who used raw chakra as limbs.

How is this possible when Rinnegan can see Mu while he invisible?

Laughable. The 3rd Raikage stalemated with the Hachibi. He effortlessly, and I mean effortlessly plows through any and all summonings with his Nukite. Orochimaru can travel underground and avoid all of them. All of Pains summonings are handled by SM Jiraiya and Orochimaru's summonings alone. It doesn't require an ounce of their attention.

What leads you to believe the Rinnegan can see through Mu's invisibility?

It's not just about the numbers. it's the application of abilities as well.

You're not factoring in that Pain is literally 1 mind allowing him to fight and use abilities simultaneously as one. Most arguments are based on 1 on 1 bases but this isn't a one on one.


Nothing is stopping him from using Asura,deva,animal,preta abilities ALL at once which he canonically did when he attacked the leaf village. No amount of teamwork in the world can get close to such perfection of tactics.

My argument on the battle isn't about step by step performed by each path individually. It's about ALL paths using ALL abilities at the same time as well as coordinating movements simultaneously.

And you're not factoring that SM Naruto dealt with all of this on his own, let alone SM Jiraiya, Orochimaru, Mu, and the 3rd Raikage, which honestly I feel ashamed for even entertaining because the Edos aren't even necessary.

What I stated before is based on what Pain would do at the start of the fight all at the same time:

1) Animal path summons all summons and immediately attacks Orochimaru and 3rd Raikage

While

2) Deva Path Bansho tenin's Jiraiya (Pulling ma/pa) and Mu which negates Jiraiya and Mu (Unless he splits which removes Dust release)

While

3) Asura and Preta prepare for counter attack / assaulting Jiraiya and Mu

This isn't a 3 step move but 1 step performed at the exact same time.


If Animal path couldn't summon all it's summons I would favor the sannins more but the fact is Both Naraka and Animal path can sit in the chameleon reverse summoning and repairing pains IF they are infact injured.

People constantly bring up SM Naruto vs Pain fight but forget the 2 more critical parts of that fight:

Naruto had full intel and pain had 0 intel
Deva Path couldn't use it's abilities.
If Deva could have used his abilities Naruto would have been zero diff'd

1) Orochimaru releases spores and slips underground to travel anywhere he wants, while the 3rd Raikage yawns and runs through all the summons like butter with Nukite.

2) Ma/Pa uses Frog song to paralyze, and Jiraiya shoots needles out of his hair to counter anyone who tries to attack them. Mu uses ultra weighted boulder on his body making it much harder for Deva to pull him in. Orochimaru comes from below and surprise attacks Deva with Kusanagi blade from behind.

3) Countered way before they can do anything. Orochimaru also can activate spores at any moment to distract the paths and create an opening.

Orochimaru lets his snake summons locate and kill the Chameleon along with Naraka. Again, not ever an issue. Deva didn't have his abilities for just a portion of that fight, so weak excuse, because Naruto handled him just fine when he got it back. Outside of FRS, Naruto did nothing out of the ordinary from SM Jiraiya so the no intel is another poor excuse. Intel doesn't save 6POP from being feinted over and over again like he was.

SM Jiraiya and Orochimaru are enough to win this fight high difficulty, adding Edo Mu and 3rd Raikage brings it down to a low diff.

 

[Edogawa]

I thought that After CT is formed, the attracting force of it stops so Oro would be able to slip free .I also forgot that Muu's existence would make CT almost ineffective in this fight.
I am really not sure if CT can be used with other paths or not.Edo nagato stopped all other paths before actually activating the force of CT orb but not sure if that is requirement or just because they were no longer needed .it is all about how much power needed for CT and if he can still control other paths while outputting that much power for CT .at worst he can keep only preta and deva activated and deactivate the rest which I think to be possible but would slightly decrease the maximum achievable force of his CT /ST.

The core gravity stops attracting the surrounding, but the standard gravity still keeps satellite floating, otherwise it would just collapse if there was no gravity keeping it floating. That gravity that keeps the satellite will still hold Orochimaru and whatever surrounding he's merging with. It's not like Mayfly has some sort of properties similar to Kamui. He doesn't become intangible or anything. He merely merges with an object, just like Earth Release Hiding Like a Mole does. That doesn't stop him from being attracted to CT and sealed there forever. He can't get out no matter what. His only chance is Reverse Summoning, but he forfeits if he does.

Chibaku Tensei tanked Biju Dama barrage without damage that vaporizes mountain range on molecule level. What destructive capacity does Jinton even have? It solely dependent on Mu to aim at the target, and Naruto stated you can't aim your attacks with all the objects being pulled, and not to mention the maximum range Jinton extended was only mid range, when Onoki used it to vaporize the flower pollen. Itachi stated you need a long range technique, something that could travel on its without the need of the user to aim it. The core is literally on clouds and attracting objects that makes mountain range look like babies. What range and destructive does Jinton even have?

You must be registered for see images

Edo Nagato activated Chibaku Tensei simultaneously with Asura Path (artificial arm) and King of Hell behind him. There isn't any page afterward activation of CT showing the paths being deactivated. The only page we see Nagato after CT was when he was stabbed by Totsuka. So there isn't any proof he deactivated the paths for CT during the duration between CT's activation and its destruction. We've seen Madara and Sasuke using CT with other techniques at the same time.

 

[Edogawa]

It's canon that Rinnegan can see and detect Mayfly, as Pain knew Zetsu was there.

You must be registered for see images

 

[Zetsu God]

Wow, this is a close one IMO.

 

[Eng nawashi]

The core gravity stops attracting the surrounding, but the standard gravity still keeps satellite floating, otherwise it would just collapse if there was no gravity keeping it floating. That gravity that keeps the satellite will still hold Orochimaru and whatever surrounding he's merging with. It's not like Mayfly has some sort of properties similar to Kamui. He doesn't become intangible or anything. He merely merges with an object, just like Earth Release Hiding Like a Mole does. That doesn't stop him from being attracted to CT and sealed there forever. He can't get out no matter what. His only chance is Reverse Summoning, but he forfeits if he does.

Chibaku Tensei tanked Biju Dama barrage without damage that vaporizes mountain range on molecule level. What destructive capacity does Jinton even have? It solely dependent on Mu to aim at the target, and Naruto stated you can't aim your attacks with all the objects being pulled, and not to mention the maximum range Jinton extended was only mid range, when Onoki used it to vaporize the flower pollen. Itachi stated you need a long range technique, something that could travel on its without the need of the user to aim it. The core is literally on clouds and attracting objects that makes mountain range look like babies. What range and destructive does Jinton even have?

You must be registered for see images

Edo Nagato activated Chibaku Tensei simultaneously with Asura Path (artificial arm) and King of Hell behind him. There isn't any page afterward activation of CT showing the paths being deactivated. The only page we see Nagato after CT was when he was stabbed by Totsuka. So there isn't any proof he deactivated the paths for CT during the duration between CT's activation and its destruction. We've seen Madara and Sasuke using CT with other techniques at the same time.

I thought the gravity stops because the rocks that form the CT fell after kuarma was sealed back into Naruto and left a hole in the structure .but as you pointed The structure stays up in the sky even after the attracting force stops which means it is still connected to the core by gravity. So the gravity doesn't completely stop but its range decreases so you are probably right about that point .

Even if jinton can't reach the core when Muu is still far away ,he can wait until he becomes close then use it .Jinton can be swinged freely with the user hands so I don't think aiming issues would work for Jinton as it works for thrown projectiles .CT core never tanked TTB barrage .it was actually destroyed by TTB,FRS and Yasakas .I don't think destroying it would be an issue to jinton .

You can see Nagato's summoning and king of hell disappearing in the back ground here but not sure if this is prerequisite or he just didn't need them anymore .

You must be registered for see links

But as I said at worst cases Nagato or pein can activate one path along with Deva but this would slightly decrease his deva's maximum capabilities .if every path needs 1/6 of Nagato's power as minimum to be active(maybe less than 1/6) then Deva would have 5/6 of Nagato power instead of 6/6 so his CST and CT might get weaker just a bit .

 

[Zetsu God]

Mayfly is a form of teleportation though, isn't it?

At the very least, him mayfly/ merging with the stone would stop him from getting crushed.

It's not like hiding like a mole where the user puts chakra into the earth to dig through it like sand. The user fuses with an object--tree, rock, ground, etc. and then is one with said object.

 

[Edogawa]

I thought the gravity stops because the rocks that form the CT fell after kuarma was sealed back into Naruto and left a hole in the structure .but as you pointed The structure stays up in the sky even after the attracting force stops which means it is still connected to the core by gravity. So the gravity doesn't completely stop but its range decreases so you are probably right about that point.

The satellite were falling because Nagato deactivated CT.

Even if jinton can't reach the core when Muu is still far away ,he can wait until he becomes close then use it .Jinton can be swinged freely with the user hands so I don't think aiming issues would work for Jinton as it works for thrown projectiles .CT core never tanked TTB barrage .it was actually destroyed by TTB,FRS and Yasakas .I don't think destroying it would be an issue to jinton.

The issue with your post is, Jinton doesn't have the range, speed or power to destroy CT. That's the thing here.

-Range: Jinton is only a close range technique. The core could fly up to the clouds. Do you realize that clouds are 6,000 meters higher than the ground? The range Jinton extends is only 5-10 meters longer than a midget like Onoki. If Mu waits as you're saying, then CT will gain sphere shape. What range feats does Jinton have to anticipate CT? None.

-Speed: It only took 2-3 pages for CT to gain complete sphere shape and it dwarfed mountain range at that short duration. Jinton doesn't have any speed feats.

-Power: TBB > Jinton in power. Incomplete Chibaku Tensei tanked TBB from 6 Tailed Naruto without any damage. [

You must be registered for see links

]

Naruto can swing FRS with Chakra Arms freely just like Mu can with Jinton, yet still commented it's hard to aim. The attracted rocks will block his aim and will shield the core from Jinton.

You can see Nagato's summoning and king of hell disappearing in the back ground here but not sure if this is prerequisite or he just didn't need them anymore.

He didn't need them anymore.

But as I said at worst cases Nagato or pein can activate one path along with Deva but this would slightly decrease his deva's maximum capabilities .if every path needs 1/6 of Nagato's power as minimum to be active(maybe less than 1/6) then Deva would have 5/6 of Nagato power instead of 6/6 so his CST and CT might get weaker just a bit.

That's only if he wants to increase the scale of his technique. For this time, a small CT would suffice and shouldn't affect the other paths, considering Nagato still used large scale ST with other paths activated.

 

[Eng nawashi]

The satellite were falling because Nagato deactivated CT.

That seems to be the case.

The issue with your post is, Jinton doesn't have the range, speed or power to destroy CT. That's the thing here.

-Range: Jinton is only a close range technique. The core could fly up to the clouds. Do you realize that clouds are 6,000 meters higher than the ground? The range Jinton extends is only 5-10 meters longer than a midget like Onoki. If Mu waits as you're saying, then CT will gain sphere shape. What range feats does Jinton have to anticipate CT? None

.
Oonki's jinton against FTW was about 100m long but I agree that wouldn't really reach the core unless Muu waited until he got close but as you pointed the CT would be already formed with massive diameter that far beyond Jinton range so you are probably right here .but can't Muu get close to the core by himself instead of waiting until he gets lifted up ?or he can make himself get attracted faster than flying rocks by adjusting his weight .

-Speed: It only took 2-3 pages for CT to gain complete sphere shape and it dwarfed mountain range at that short duration. Jinton doesn't have any speed feats.

Jinton doesn't take that much time specially when we are talking about a jutsu that was slow enough for itachi and Naruto to argue and charge their jutsu.

-Power: TBB > Jinton in power. Incomplete Chibaku Tensei tanked TBB from 6 Tailed Naruto without any damage. [

You must be registered for see links

]

What proof that TTB >Jinton in destructive power?

Naruto can swing FRS with Chakra Arms freely just like Mu can with Jinton, yet still commented it's hard to aim. The attracted rocks will block his aim and will shield the core from Jinton.

But he still needs to throw it while Muu doesn't throw jinton .

He didn't need them anymore.

Maybe or he wanted to use deva at full power .

That's only if he wants to increase the scale of his technique. For this time, a small CT would suffice and shouldn't affect the other paths, considering Nagato still used large scale ST with other paths activated.

Not really sure if he can use CT with all other paths activated but he can certainly use it with one other path activated .

 

[Lord Tywin]

I didn't say it just wouldn't hurt them I'm saying Oro isn't striking any Path with the sword JIRAIYA IS NOT ENOUGH OF A DISTRACTION HERE.

I know that pain shits on these two if he goes all out

 

[Edogawa]

Oonki's jinton against FTW was about 100m long but I agree that wouldn't really reach the core unless Muu waited until he got close but as you pointed the CT would be already formed with massive diameter that far beyond Jinton range so you are probably right here .but can't Muu get close to the core by himself instead of waiting until he gets lifted up ?or he can make himself get attracted faster than flying rocks by adjusting his weight.

100m? Doubt it. But even then, that's the longest adjustment Jinton was ever made, which isn't anywhere close to touching the core that is literally floating in the atmosphere, which is thousands of meters above the ground. He could do that if he wants, but by the time he float to the sky, CT would already have gained completion.

Jinton doesn't take that much time specially when we are talking about a jutsu that was slow enough for itachi and Naruto to argue and charge their jutsu.

It only took that long because Kabuto was controlling Nagato. A weakened Nagato by his own will through a weakened Pain could complete an enormous CT in only 2-3 pages, which was much faster than when he was revived.

What proof that TTB >Jinton in destructive power?

TBB vaporizes an entire mountain. Jinton by Mu's sole power could only vaporize something like a human. Jinton buffed by Tsunade was dwarfed by a mountain-sized PS.

But he still needs to throw it while Muu doesn't throw jinton.

With Chakra Arms? No, he could manipulate the direction like a ball which he did against 3rd Raikage. Jinton, on the hand, can only extend at 180 degree. Either way, he's not aiming with all giant rocks flying around him.

Maybe or he wanted to use deva at full power

He used CT with Outer Path at the same time. Nagato controlling 6 bodies is an Outer Path according to Naruto. The only factual conclusion is he didn't need King of Hell anymore, and it's worth mentioning Kabuto was controlling him.

Not really sure if he can use CT with all other paths activated but he can certainly use it with one other path activated

He used CT with Outer Path at the same time.

 

[Tyrance sasuke]

Muu can simply use jinton to vapourize by spinning them around like laser beams and it seems to be long range considering the fact muu said numbers are useless against him. The SA is made of 80000 members who take apart space of at least kilometres, which is more than enough for muu to shoot the beam up in the sky and obliterate the core.

 

[Eng nawashi]

He could do that if he wants, but by the time he float to the sky, CT would already have gained completion

.
not if he could make himself get attracted faster than the rocks that form the CT which he can possibly do by adjusting his weight .

It only took that long because Kabuto was controlling Nagato. A weakened Nagato by his own will through a weakened Pain could complete an enormous CT in only 2-3 pages, which was much faster than when he was revived.

either way Muu can defiantly charge a Hinton at this frame of time .

TBB vaporizes an entire mountain. Jinton by Mu's sole power could only vaporize something like a human. Jinton buffed by Tsunade was dwarfed by a mountain-sized PS.

that was 6tails Naruto's TTB not standard TTB.jinton may not cover the same range of TTB explosion but it isn't just about the range .tusonade only made jinton cover more range but its bound to bound power is still the same.

With Chakra Arms? No, he could manipulate the direction like a ball which he did against 3rd Raikage. Jinton, on the hand, can only extend at 180 degree. Either way, he's not aiming with all giant rocks flying around him.

he can't reach the core by extending his chakra arm so he needed to throw it .muu doesn't throw jinton but swing it once he is close enough to the core .flying rocks wouldnt block jinton aim as well .jinton vaporizes rocks on contact .

He used CT with Outer Path at the same time. Nagato controlling 6 bodies is an Outer Path according to Naruto. The only factual conclusion is he didn't need King of Hell anymore, and it's worth mentioning Kabuto was controlling him.

yeah I agree that he can use CT with one or two other paths activated .

 

[Tyrance sasuke]

Jinton will atomise the core, given the fact, thier is no need to aim, the gravity pull will gather the jinton cone into its core and atomise it.

 

[Edogawa]

.
not if he could make himself get attracted faster than the rocks that form the CT which he can possibly do by adjusting his weight.

No proof he's getting faster than CT's completion speed. It took Onoki and Deidara some time period to get to the sky, in which Deidara noted Onoki is faster than he was young, which at least indicates Onoki is faster than Mu in speed. Even if Mu lights himself up, he still isn't going to get fast to the point of anticipating the core, which already gains mountain size in just one page by Nagato's feat instead Kabuto. Not to mention if Jinton is to be used, it will have to vaporize the surroundings before it can reach the core.

either way Muu can defiantly charge a Hinton at this frame of time .

No feats that he can.

that was 6tails Naruto's TTB not standard TTB.jinton may not cover the same range of TTB explosion but it isn't just about the range .tusonade only made jinton cover more range but its bound to bound power is still the same.

6 Tailed Naruto's TBB was mountain-vaporizer. The portion the explosion covered was the same rock fragments that were equal to a mountain when falling off. The range of TBB is part of its power, just like the range of Jinton. Even if they're the same in power (which they aren't), CT tanked TBB so it will tank Jinton that you're asserting is equal to it in power.

 

[Tyrance sasuke]

Muu would island radius jinton and obliterate nagato. Muu himself said numbers mean nothing to him, the entire SA had some 80000 members lined up some 2-3 kilomteres. The core gets dismantled.