Otsutsuki Clan and Celestial Beings

wanderingcactus

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This is how I interpret the shrine:
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  • Shrine is a tribute to the hierarchy of the Otsutsuki Clan
  • They travel in pairs
  • The arrangement can give hints which affinity they have (top, mind = yin. bottom, body = yang)
  • Eventhough slightly, Momoshiki and Kinshiki are the lowest in order
  • Broken symbols are probably for Urashiki and his partner (although hard to tell)
  • It's educational
  • houses the juubi (could be a different one)
I assume that there are other more Otsutsukis that are irrelevant (fodders, chakra fruit factory) and that the Otsutsuki clan is simply just one clan out of many that the celestial beings have (unless this is all that remains and they had suffered a similar war much like the Uchiha in which they butchered each other to attain better eyes, in their case, chakra fruit). They could be the last remaining clan of their kind.

I put educational because I believe that Jigen is just a human being that underwent a conditioning/reprogramming.
Similar to what Madara did to Obito when he took him under his wing to replace him as Madara.
I also believe that he intends to do the same for Kawaki. He is noted to be a vessel which means that he will be the juubi's jin and could potentially revive the Kaguya's partner.

The damaged symbols could mean that they have been stricken away from the hierarchy, perhaps a coup (which makes sense if they did intend to dethrone or cannibalize the rest into chakra fruits)

OR that they could be a spec ops and so they were redacted.


Another thing I would like to point out is that 2 horns = 3rd eye.
 
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Its worth to mention what Jigen is talking about in Chapter 35 where he specifically talks to the Juubi as if it has a mind of its own. He states that;

Now, now... I told you, you can't eat me just yet... We need to complete the "vessel" first...

This is interesting because of two different reasons, he intends to get eaten by the Juubi at some point and by this statement we know that Kawaki's evolution into "the vessel" is yet to be completed. It also leaves two specific questions in mind:
  1. Why does Jigen want to be eaten by the Juubi at some point?
  2. What is the "vessel" for?
I think the reason he wants to be eaten by the Juubi is because to him, and likely to the other Otsutsuki, a Juubi is either the final stage or a later stage of "evolution" to them. Its a mass of chakra and as Naruto sensed it is very much alive. Jigen talks to it as if it has a personality, yet we are almost entirely certain that it does not have a personality unless it also has a host like with Kaguya. If his religion revolves around the Juubi or a being the Juubi can turn into, then that would explain why he treats it with some manner of respect unlike Madara and Obito who viewed it as a tool.

By being eaten he would "become one" with the Juubi and the chakra it possesses, thus furthering his own evolution as the "perfect being". We've seen this symbolism already in Momoshiki and Kinshiki who upon devouring Kinshiki evolved into a new form entirely. This form he amassed was likely the same form Kaguya and Jigen have already accomplished while what Kaguya became after devouring the Shinju fruit on "Earth" is the next level in that evolution. Now this isn't to say that by eating a Shinju Fruit you will become this powerful, but rather that the gathering of chakra from different worlds will eventually lead to this evolution.

This symbolism of "gathering chakra" is something the anime has introduced in the way of Urashiki who goes around and grabbing pockets of chakra from people to keep for himself. Now the next question is what is a "vessel" and why does Jigen refer to both Kawaki and Boruto as such? If obtaining the Karma means you are a vessel then he himself is a vessel as well, right? I think that is the point. Jigen, Kaguya, Momoshiki, Kinshiki and Urashiki are all vessels of their own. Elects to gather chakra to further the evolution of the Otsutsuki by harnessing powerful chakra for their deity, the Juubi, or what comes after it in the chain of evolution.
 

wanderingcactus

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Its worth to mention what Jigen is talking about in Chapter 35 where he specifically talks to the Juubi as if it has a mind of its own. He states that;




This is interesting because of two different reasons, he intends to get eaten by the Juubi at some point and by this statement we know that Kawaki's evolution into "the vessel" is yet to be completed. It also leaves two specific questions in mind:
  1. Why does Jigen want to be eaten by the Juubi at some point?
  2. What is the "vessel" for?
I think the reason he wants to be eaten by the Juubi is because to him, and likely to the other Otsutsuki, a Juubi is either the final stage or a later stage of "evolution" to them. Its a mass of chakra and as Naruto sensed it is very much alive. Jigen talks to it as if it has a personality, yet we are almost entirely certain that it does not have a personality unless it also has a host like with Kaguya. If his religion revolves around the Juubi or a being the Juubi can turn into, then that would explain why he treats it with some manner of respect unlike Madara and Obito who viewed it as a tool.

By being eaten he would "become one" with the Juubi and the chakra it possesses, thus furthering his own evolution as the "perfect being". We've seen this symbolism already in Momoshiki and Kinshiki who upon devouring Kinshiki evolved into a new form entirely. This form he amassed was likely the same form Kaguya and Jigen have already accomplished while what Kaguya became after devouring the Shinju fruit on "Earth" is the next level in that evolution. Now this isn't to say that by eating a Shinju Fruit you will become this powerful, but rather that the gathering of chakra from different worlds will eventually lead to this evolution.

This symbolism of "gathering chakra" is something the anime has introduced in the way of Urashiki who goes around and grabbing pockets of chakra from people to keep for himself. Now the next question is what is a "vessel" and why does Jigen refer to both Kawaki and Boruto as such? If obtaining the Karma means you are a vessel then he himself is a vessel as well, right? I think that is the point. Jigen, Kaguya, Momoshiki, Kinshiki and Urashiki are all vessels of their own. Elects to gather chakra to further the evolution of the Otsutsuki by harnessing powerful chakra for their deity, the Juubi, or what comes after it in the chain of evolution.
That is certainly an interesting take that I have not thought of before.
I had always thought that Jigen saying that line is in a manner of a joking banter. Much like teasing the Juubi. As if a person who just captured an incredible beast locked up in a cage and is now celebrating their dominance over it.

What you said can also be in line with his core belief should he truly be just a lackey of the Otsutsuki patriach. I believe that Vessel is just that, a vessel for the Juubi. I do not believe that Boruto himself is one.

From what I speculate, this Juubi is a different one as BOTH chakra and vessel are sealed up. If this was the same Juubi from "Earth" then we can surmise that Urashiki has retrieved the body, Gedo Mazou. Still, the chakra is now taken out of it completely and split 9 ways once more. With Naruto connected all to the beasts, he should have been informed if the other jins or beasts had been attacked and has had some of their chakra siphoned.

Jigen is a human being from what we can tell. I do not believe he is on the same evolutionary state as any of them. It is possible that he can achieve this through Karma as Kawaki slowly transformed into Papa Otsutsuki upon Jigen morphing into him as well.

Begs to question: should Boruto ever get a beasts chakra or have the juubi chakra, will he turn into Momoshiki?

Another thing: Are only the ones who transcended can anoint Karma? If so, Kaguya basically can. Is the Black Zetsu her Karma?

Regarding of gathering chakra, I think it functions like how we would harvest energy from the surrounding. Each living thing has their own energy. They can grow by devouring other who have energy. This is the information that Momoshiki has told Naruto and the rest of the Kages. Meaning that the God Tree was this entity that siphoned the life out of the planet itself. This could mean that the rest of "Earth" can be barren. I think the celestial beings have already planted the seed of it long before and Kaguya was meant to harvest it but decided to absorb it instead.

This is backed by the legends about her and as well as Momoshiki's demonstration of turning Kinshiki into a chakra fruit. I believe that their conversion is only applicable to their species and they require the God Tree to convert other living organisms into chakra fruits/pills (depending on the potency). Unless the God Tree is just a tool that they use to do the heavy lifting of harvesting (as it was demonstrated during IT technique).

I think we can safe to say that celestial beings truly feed on life and they grow if they eat more a lot and are able to transcend much like if an Uchiha were to kill and harvest the eyes of their brethren to upgrade their eyes.
 
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That is certainly an interesting take that I have not thought of before.
I had always thought that Jigen saying that line is in a manner of a joking banter. Much like teasing the Juubi. As if a person who just captured an incredible beast locked up in a cage and is now celebrating their dominance over it.
I would agree with you, but he also apologizes to the Juubi when he extracts chakra from it. He clearly has some attachment towards it and it isn't in terms of hatred. Otherwise he wouldn't apologize to it.

What you said can also be in line with his core belief should he truly be just a lackey of the Otsutsuki patriach. I believe that Vessel is just that, a vessel for the Juubi. I do not believe that Boruto himself is one.
I think its more likely that Jigen is the Otsutsuki that arrived with Kaguya and they either had a falling out when she ate the fruit or something else happened. As for the "vessel" part, when Jigen leaves the Juubi to go after Kawaki he refers to two people, which can only mean Kawaki and Boruto.

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From what I speculate, this Juubi is a different one as BOTH chakra and vessel are sealed up. If this was the same Juubi from "Earth" then we can surmise that Urashiki has retrieved the body, Gedo Mazou. Still, the chakra is now taken out of it completely and split 9 ways once more. With Naruto connected all to the beasts, he should have been informed if the other jins or beasts had been attacked and has had some of their chakra siphoned.
I'm not saying its the same Juubi, I'm saying its a Juubi and that both Juubi serve the same goal to the Otsutsuki. Though Kaguya at some point broke off from the Otsutsuki and took the power for herself instead of furthering their goals together.

Jigen is a human being from what we can tell. I do not believe he is on the same evolutionary state as any of them. It is possible that he can achieve this through Karma as Kawaki slowly transformed into Papa Otsutsuki upon Jigen morphing into him as well.
As far as I can remember, we've never seen Jigen in color before. So we don't know his skin color. Though one common thing between all the other Otsutsuki until now have been; horns, white skin and white hair. Out of those the only difference in Jigen that we know of is the hair color. It might very well be that Jigen is either using a technique to hide his appearance from the world or we have entirely misunderstood what the Otsutsuki are.

Considering how Karma works, it might be the first evolutionary stage of what we consider an "Otsutsuki" by nature. At some point when Jigen had a falling out with Kaguya he might have lost portions of his power or it might have been sealed away in his Karma as a cooping mechanism, resulting in his different looks. Or he might just look different and not all Otsutsuki have the same characteristics. Numerous ideas are possible.

When Jigen transforms, he loses his hair on one side. Hence a fully transformed version would lose all of it. He also has a broken horn which could be from his falling out with Kaguya. The only other explanation is that at some point, someone as strong as the current Naruto and Sasuke (the two of them together) fought Jigen and broke his horn. Which seems even less likely than him being just a random person with Karma.

When Kawaki grows a horn, the shape is entirely different. Hence the transformation isn't the same for the two individuals, further backing up the idea that the Otsutsuki that was partnered up with Kaguya was indeed Jigen.

Begs to question: should Boruto ever get a beasts chakra or have the juubi chakra, will he turn into Momoshiki?
I doubt so as Kawaki doesn't turn into Jigen.

Another thing: Are only the ones who transcended can anoint Karma? If so, Kaguya basically can. Is the Black Zetsu her Karma?
That's a possibility. In this scenario we can think of the Karma as "the will" of a person that is passed down to a new carrier. This "will" would be within the "vessel" of a person, but wouldn't dictate them or control them, but rather present themselves as a guide of sorts. This is also what you can think of Black Zetsu as, just in a physical form rather than a mark within a body.

Regarding of gathering chakra, I think it functions like how we would harvest energy from the surrounding. Each living thing has their own energy. They can grow by devouring other who have energy. This is the information that Momoshiki has told Naruto and the rest of the Kages. Meaning that the God Tree was this entity that siphoned the life out of the planet itself. This could mean that the rest of "Earth" can be barren. I think the celestial beings have already planted the seed of it long before and Kaguya was meant to harvest it but decided to absorb it instead.
The Juubi that Hagoromo and Hamura defeated was Kaguya as she became the Shinju as noted by Madara. The Otsutsuki clearly know off the Juubi and Jigen even has one of his own. The location where Momoshiki was defeated also had a Shinju that had been removed, likely "harvested" and eaten. From what I gathered reading Naruto, the Shinju predates man on "Earth" and is therefore considered holy. Its also said to bring life and take life. This is interesting because it implies that the Shinju creates life to harvest it, it gives chakra for other people to grow it and then take it back. This would in turn be what Jigen is implying he is doing himself for the Juubi.
 

wanderingcactus

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As far as I can remember, we've never seen Jigen in color before. So we don't know his skin color. Though one common thing between all the other Otsutsuki until now have been; horns, white skin and white hair.
Well, Jigen doesn't have the byakugan, which is another tell that someone is a celestial or a descendant of one. The only believable explanation that he is a celestial but does not look the part is due to blending in. This is still farfetched as being superior to humans, it would be out of character for him to do so. Then again, Kaguya has had children with a human and she defended and raised the people in her village.

It is also plausable that he has been sealed inside of Jigen (the human). But that raises the question of who can possibly do that.

I doubt so as Kawaki doesn't turn into Jigen.
We would not know for certain as Jigen states that he is at that "stage" meaning that there are multiple stages and this is not the final product. We do not know if the horn can grow and wrap around his head to resemble the person from the Shrine.

The Juubi that Hagoromo and Hamura defeated was Kaguya as she became the Shinju
I was saying the God Tree was there and its chakra is the Juubi (God Tree is the vessel). Kaguya ate the chakra fruit but she did not become the God Tree. I believe that during her fight with Hagoromo and Hamura, she absorbed the God Tree to get a final boost and ending up with the monster that we know as the Juubi. At least that is my hypothesis as I am paralleling it with Naruto and Sasuke vs Madara.

This is derived from the information we were given from word of mouth as legends, the tablet, and Hagomoro himself:
  • Came from space
  • horn makes her look like a rabbit
  • ate the fruit to gain powers (I'm guessing she already has them.. she just needed to fill up)
  • settled down
  • had 2 babies
  • went crazy
  • became Juubi
  • got sealed
IDK what Shinju means but I assume you meant the God Tree.
 

Yahcob13

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Madara and Obito pretty much did the same thing as Jigen (Absorb Juubi chakra and turned into Otsutsuki) I think it is they whose shrine was destroyed once they died. Kinshiki and Momoshiki are probably not dead either. Kinshiki is inside of Momoshiki who is inside of Boruto. Kawaki and Boruto's karma seals are linked because Jigen and Momo are both linked to the Juubi through their karma seals. These are just my thoughts so take them lightly. I predict that the new team 7 will find ways to become equivalent in strength to a fully powered karma user via their own connections to the Juubi.
 

wanderingcactus

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Madara and Obito pretty much did the same thing as Jigen (Absorb Juubi chakra and turned into Otsutsuki) I think it is they whose shrine was destroyed once they died. Kinshiki and Momoshiki are probably not dead either. Kinshiki is inside of Momoshiki who is inside of Boruto. Kawaki and Boruto's karma seals are linked because Jigen and Momo are both linked to the Juubi through their karma seals. These are just my thoughts so take them lightly. I predict that the new team 7 will find ways to become equivalent in strength to a fully powered karma user via their own connections to the Juubi.

I like that theory actually. I think you are onto something. It still is congruent with some of the aspects such how the curse mark functions. Considering that the curse mark and by extension sage mode (non-Hashirama), as the curse mark is based off of it, can morph a person's characteristics.

Karma would basically be like that but more powerful. It also gives the reason as to why Boruto's seal reacts with Kawaki as from what we know of Sage Modes, it takes in the surrounding chakra energy. Having a Karma active and spewing out Juubi chakra into the environment, Boruto's would also react to the Juubi chakra.
 
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