And then he's dead, lol. There is no scenario where Orochimaru is diced into pieces and somehow survives. The best feat he's shown for that was restitching his body cut in half at the TORSO, once. Nothing suggests he could do that for his entire body, or even for single other parts of his body. Like KG pointed out, a decapitation is game over.
Orochimaru vs Minato
- Thread starter Nattana
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blazekev90
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Where have people gotten this misconception oral rebirth consumes a lot of chakra?! lol because of Sasuke's statement? That's almost like using A>B>C logic. Secondly, the databook clearly referenced the summoning of gates of having been a major chakra draining process for Orochimaru.
Orochimaru's true form has no neck, we've witnessed this. So, removing the head of his host kills him? That's hard to believe
Lastly, when has Minato blitz ranked shinbo without ftg? lol it's not like Orochimaru doesn't have suitable counters for marked kunia. Sure character portrayal makes this seem plausible, but not when you consider previous encounters.
KidGamer65
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Yes. It consumes a lot of chakra. Oro spamming it means that he has far more chakra than Sasuke. It doesn't mean that what was stated about the jutsu itself is false.
But his true body and his host are two completely separate things. Not to mention separating a snake's head from it's body would result in death too.
Without? Obviously never. However his Shunshin is superior to Tobirama's who is superior to the Madara who can force SM Naruto into a block with his speed. SM Naruto is far above Orochimaru in reaction speed so if Minato rushes Oro at top speed he won't dodge. At best he can block...and when he does he gets marked and killed.
And Orochimaru has no reliable counters to his Kunai let alone combined with clones and his natural raw speed. He may be able to deflect a few, but not all of them and not consistently unless I'm missing something, and I'm sure I'm not.
blazekev90
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Never said it was false. It just doesn't apply nor has it been implied that he drains Orochimaru's chakra. Suggesting limitations of Oral rebirth can't determine a match, when we don't know those limitations, especially in a match where people think it's a stomp.
Exactly. The host is his conscious taking over another's body, his true body lies underneath. Similar to his CM. The very reason Sasuke made that statement "finally you reveal yourself" or something like that. Didn't Sasuke remove his head at that point? Having "studied snakes" in order to defeat Orochimaru, don't you think that would've been him goal?
So again, you're using A>B>C logic? Post me the context of that encounter again, I don't recall it. Nonetheless, it's a matter of anticipation. Can Minato withstand a futuuon technique to the face with a straight on approach? Also, the ability to utilize snakes. They're summoning, so that's s/t. That's technically "faster" than any shunshin.
Orochimaru can utilize clones as well. Standing in formation, each would have the others blindspot covered, none of Minato's tossed kunia can bypass his futuuon techniques.
KidGamer65
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But the main point is, Oro is using more chakra than Minato is as Minato's teleportation uses little chakra unless he's teleporting very large objects.. If that cycle continues Orochimaru will run out first.
Sasuke didn't remove his head. Sasuke bisected him. If you remove a snake's head they'll die. If Orochimaru's head is removed he dies.
A>B>C logic works when talking about things like speed and reactions as those do not have some special variable like overall combat does. If you are faster than one person you are faster than every single person slower than that guy as well.
-Madara's so fast SM Naruto can only block. [
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]-Tobirama was the fastest shinobi, so blind Madara without SM most likely isn't faster than him. [
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]-Minato's Shunshin surpasses Tobirama's. [
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]Anyway, Orochimaru's only Fuuton is Great Breakthrough and while it has enough force to rip out a tree it's damage potential is worthless as Sasuke and Sakura as kids were right in the area of effect yet received no injuries. At best he blows Minato and his Kunai away only for Minato to immediately strike again. Snakes don't help either. They don't stop Kunai from reaching his position and them being s/t, thus faster than Shunshin doesn't really matter since being faster than Minato's Shunshin doesn't stop Minato from reaching Orochimaru's position.
blazekev90
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That I can somewhat agree with, when comparing general chakra consumption between Oral Rebirth and FGT. However, the effort on Minato's behalf to put Orochimaru down can very well be equivalent to the amount of times Orochimaru needing to shed his skin. Overall it's a matter of 1) determining what offenses will/can force Orochimaru to use Oral Rebirth and 2) whether or not Minato can achieve this possibly 10x times throughout their match before running outta chakra himself. This is where your underestimating Orochimaru imo.
Now, back to Sasuke:
You say Sasuke didn't remove his head, but it appears he indeed made an attempt. I say "attempt" because I'm considering the locations in which Orochimaru's true form was cut down. Also, you ignored differential between his host body and his true form. Technically, these are two separate targets when trying to physically kill Orochimaru.
Nothing indicates Naruto's inability to dodge Madara in that scan. He could've simply made the decision to block as advised by the 1st Hokage. He informed them to block prior to Madara making his move, yet you believe Naruto couldn't even move a step if he wanted to?
Being able to anticipate an attack doesn't require superior reaction speed to begin with.
That technique was used strategically to separate Naruto from Sasuke and Sakura, not to harm them. So that's irrelevant when considering context. Blowing kunia and approaching clones away would be purpose of the technique. Prevent CQC. Immediately strike again in what fashion?
The snakes matter as they've shown speed feats that even forced Itachi to retreat, who have superior reflexes. Minato would have to use ftg to avoid being wrapped by a snake on approach. They're not there to stop the kunia, but to be another obstacle to dodge when trying to get near Orochimaru. S/T snakes as a shield is actually a great counter.
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KidGamer65
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Not even close to attempted. He cut it near the middle and then again below said midpoint. And the differential between his host and true form is irrelevant. You don't need to kill him twice to kill him for good. You only need to kill him once. If he dies in his host body he dies. If he escapes from his host body before death he lives, but then he's stuck in his true form and would get destroyed by Minato.
Madara attacked Naruto. Their goal is to defeat and seal/kill Madara. If Madara rushes Naruto the latter's first instinct will be too engage him, but Madara was too fast. So instead of engaging him he only managed to block and it was a bad block as well considering he got tossed to the ground after getting kicked. And that's not why he has superior reaction speed to Orochimaru. His feats overall are why he has superior reaction to Orochimaru.
-Vs Asura Path.
-Vs. 3rd Raikage mainly.
-Sage Sensing.
Orochimaru has no sensing and his reaction feats are inferior.
But that doesn't change how the jutsu works. It blows things away. It doesn't do damage like that unless the target is slammed into a solid object. So wind blows away Kunai, and then Minato charges w/ Shusnhin again and tosses his kunai at him again. Minato can throw Kunai faster than Orochimaru can cast his Great Breakthrough so if he wants to turn this into a cycle he'll lose here.
And no, Itachi doesn't have superior reflexes or foot speed to Minato. No need to use Hiraishin. If a snake attacks him he simply dodges it/cuts w/ a Kunai/kills it with Rasengan and then tags Orochimaru. Using his snakes as a shield is a bad idea, cause then Minato would mark them and then use them to teleport straight to Orochimaru.
-Can't stop Minato from approaching him.
-His shadow snakes won't catch Minato or force him to retreat. At worst he tosses a Kunai above or behind or to Oro's sides and then warps there instead of warping out of close range to escape.
KidGamer65
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If it's not chakra sensing on par with a Sage Mode user then don't bother as that is what I was referring to. Don't bring nonsense about snake sensing because it is irrelevant here.
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KidGamer65
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But is it chakra sensing though? Regardless. Whatever he has is not on par with Sage Sensing.
Dęvîa Puęrî
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Your saying a sannin does not have count to kunai :| really... also look up great wind release break through or what ever it's called... unless minato has some heavy ass kunai (like more heavier then himself) I don't see why Oro wind release jutsu wouldn't work I also don't c how pro perfect form does not trap minato
As minato goes in for a kill shot most vapor that he can't really see paralysis him
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KidGamer65
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Ay is a Kage leveled shinobi easily on par with the Sannin yet Minato was going to end him in less than 30 seconds had B not saved him. :lol Don't play the rank card without the proper argumentation to back it up. I obviously never stated that Great Breakthrough doesn't work, I said it repels his Kunai only for Minato to strike again. I hope you aren't going to argue that spamming a Fuuton that is good for nothing but blowing Kunai away lets him defeat Minato.
And Oro perfect form? You mean his true form? Food Cart Destroyer crushes him, or Minato simply seals him away using Hakke Fuuin. Both prevent Orochimaru from doing anything and the latter completely makes his paralysis vapor a moot point. Transforming into any big creature only sets himself up for failure. There is no scenario where Orochimaru defeats Minato. Feats agree with that conclusion. So does portrayal. Minato is portrayed to be on a level above any of the Sannin. Hype also agrees. There is no area where Orochimaru has the advantage.
blazekev90
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First of all, I was responding to the claims that have been made. I haven't even gotten to point of mentioning how Orochimaru wins. Secondly, the ONLY argument being used against Orochimaru is "blitz until Orochimaru runs out of chakra" or "force him to use oral rebirth". Minato doesn't even have what it takes offensively to threaten Orochimaru for him to constantly shed his skin, especially not without running into problems of his own. But I'm entertaining you, I'll continue addressing the other guy.
You literally ignored my entire argument showing that Minato could blitz the living hell out of Oro multiple times, and that would be death for Oro. Unless you've got speed feats that place Oro > Ay.
Let's start with Oro's sensory abilities.
1. Obvious and well-known snake sensing - let's not bring up scans because we all know what it does.
2. Chakra sensing:
A) telling apart clones [
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]->[
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]->[
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]B) pretty much straight-forward confirmation that Orochimaru is a sensor type [
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]C) sensing a wood clone following him from probably a few km distance (Orochimaru and Kabuto managed to prepare a fake Sai before Yamato's clone got there)
D) remarkable Zetsu chakra sensing [
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]+ a few more minor things which just give more confirmation to what I just posted.
I will get back on other things later.